New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[John and Cecil]

Ok I did some testing today regarding the shut off delay and why people seem to have different experiences. If you are pedaling down the road in a medium gear and ease off the pedal pressure to shift but don't drop your cadence, the motor assist decays over about one second or more. This means you have to wait a little too long to shift sometimes. If going up an incline you can lose momentum waiting for the chance to shift.

If you abruptly stop pedaling or pedal backwards, the motor shuts off much more quickly. This shorter delay feels better to me but forces you into an inefficient pedaling style.

Another example is when negotiating tight single track,.. I often keep pedaling while weaving between trees but that causes the shutoff delay and I sometimes feel like Im being shoved into the turns.

I am nit picking here because the overall performance is very good and natural feeling. The high dollar Specialized Turbo Levo I rode had the exact same quirks. Truthfully I never expected e-bikes to reach this level of refinement so quickly. I am constantly impressed by the battery life as well.

Yes, I understand exactly what you are talking about. I do not mind stopping my pedaling briefly, etc when on the flats but when climbing a steep incline the lag time and loss of stride kills momentum. I have been considering a clutch/kill button perhaps wired to the brake connections. A shift sensor would probably be the best option if anyone figures out how to get one wired to this motor. With either a shift sensor or motor kill button one can shift on inclines without breaking stride and substantially reduce the amount of time without power assist.

I am thinking about an experiment myself. I have 2 finger shorty hydraulic brakes. I am going to try mounting one of the brake levers that came with my motor just below my left hand brake lever and try using it as a "pinkie clutch". It is going to force me to move my throttle 5/8" further up the handlebar though which I may not like, but I am curious to see if it will help when shifting on inclines.

 

[AWD]

Will the LB01 motor work well with 52 volt ( 14s ) packs ?
or even 16s packs ?

Higher than 18 amps ?

Work with a throttle ?

Weight ?

Price ?

>>
Does this camfored part mean that once a bike frame is modified to fit this little new motor, that once the motor is taken off it will not be able to be converted back to a peddle only bike ?
If so how can you take off that camford part, or do something different so as to switch the motor over to a different bike and sell the bike it was originally put on ?
>>

All you queries about the specifics are unknown quantities til we get the units in hand. I would hope for 52v capability but that depends on the controller as does the amp limit. It's still a small looking unit so not in the BBSHD category to my eye. One would hope for a throttle connection also. Weight is probably in the same 3.6kg range. Until they get hip to using a hollow axle ISIS type spindle and replace the reduction gears with a belt and nylon sprocket I don't see any of the kit motors losing too much weight. As I said in another post after having the TSDZ2 apart it seems like up to a kilo could be shaved off a kit like this but I don't think the manufacturers consider weight to be a factor. Price is about the same.

The only one I care to take a stab at is in regards to the chamfer. With a proper accepting chamfer the bb threads are protected and you can put a threaded bb back on easily. However I think that without it it would munch the outer shell enough so that it might affect that happening. You could always get the threads re-chased however.

Other improvements I see are the gasketed wire exit from the motor which the TS kind of does with silicone but the cover plate doesn't seal well and creates a hump where the wires exit. Nice long wires too, the TS ones are kind of short and longer can always be made shorter, I guess as well as shorter ones longer, but I see it fitting more applications like we run into with recumbents and such. The other is I see the possibility with the round motor of better ground clearance as the rectangular aspect of the TSDZ2 when up against the down tube actually makes for less ground clearance. With a round housing that isn't the case.

 

[AWD]

Yes, I understand exactly what you are talking about. I do not mind stopping my pedaling briefly, etc when on the flats but when climbing a steep incline the lag time and loss of stride kills momentum. I have been considering a clutch/kill button perhaps wired to the brake connections. A shift sensor would probably be the best option if anyone figures out how to get one wired to this motor. With either a shift sensor or motor kill button one can shift on inclines without breaking stride and substantially reduce the amount of time without power assist.

I am thinking about an experiment myself. I have 2 finger shorty hydraulic brakes. I am going to try mounting one of the brake levers that came with my motor just below my left hand brake lever and try using it as a "pinkie clutch". It is going to force me to move my throttle 5/8" further up the handlebar though which I may not like, but I am curious to see if it will help when shifting on inclines.

I guess after years of riding conventional push bikes I have gotten used to anticipating the gear I'll need to climb and find that useful going forward with these small mid drive units as well as my hub bikes even though they aren't connected to the drive train although the motor never stops pulling you can still crunch with your own pedal pressure. You may spin out a little at the base of the climb but there is no need to shift down on the grade itself. This is more important for off road use though as I find that on pavement backing off to gear down is fast enough that not much momentum is lost and the resulting gear change and a good pedal stroke gets you back up on step.

Let's face it, bike drivetrains are never going to be on par with moto ones as they use synchro gear boxes that are way more able to withstand the strain of shifting under load. You just have to adjust your thought process to compensate.

You may also consider this from Grin as it would retrofit to your brake levers and save some space on your bars: http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/tripwire.html

 

[gggplaya]

Yes, I understand exactly what you are talking about. I do not mind stopping my pedaling briefly, etc when on the flats but when climbing a steep incline the lag time and loss of stride kills momentum. I have been considering a clutch/kill button perhaps wired to the brake connections. A shift sensor would probably be the best option if anyone figures out how to get one wired to this motor. With either a shift sensor or motor kill button one can shift on inclines without breaking stride and substantially reduce the amount of time without power assist.

I am thinking about an experiment myself. I have 2 finger shorty hydraulic brakes. I am going to try mounting one of the brake levers that came with my motor just below my left hand brake lever and try using it as a "pinkie clutch". It is going to force me to move my throttle 5/8" further up the handlebar though which I may not like, but I am curious to see if it will help when shifting on inclines.

I guess after years of riding conventional push bikes I have gotten used to anticipating the gear I'll need to climb and find that useful going forward with these small mid drive units as well as my hub bikes even though they aren't connected to the drive train although the motor never stops pulling you can still crunch with your own pedal pressure. You may spin out a little at the base of the climb but there is no need to shift down on the grade itself. This is more important for off road use though as I find that on pavement backing off to gear down is fast enough that not much momentum is lost and the resulting gear change and a good pedal stroke gets you back up on step.

Let's face it, bike drivetrains are never going to be on par with moto ones as they use synchro gear boxes that are way more able to withstand the strain of shifting under load. You just have to adjust your thought process to compensate.

You may also consider this from Grin as it would retrofit to your brake levers and save some space on your bars: http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/tripwire.html

A couple of ex-audi drivetrain engineers created the PINION gearbox for bicycles. Here's what they had to say about it:

Every single gearbox is run through a control procedure. This tests the basics of the gearbox, will it pedal? Will it shift? What is very intriguing about this process is that the shifting is tested by a belt while the gearbox is under load. Out on the trail you cannot shift under load. When asked about this Pinion explained that it is a question of torque, the gearbox itself will shift under load, but using a cable shifter you cannot generate enough torque to do it. However, if you were to have an electronic shifter with a servo motor of some kind, then it might be possible...

 

[AWD]

"Every single gearbox is run through a control procedure. This tests the basics of the gearbox, will it pedal? Will it shift? What is very intriguing about this process is that the shifting is tested by a belt while the gearbox is under load. Out on the trail you cannot shift under load. When asked about this Pinion explained that it is a question of torque, the gearbox itself will shift under load, but using a cable shifter you cannot generate enough torque to do it. However, if you were to have an electronic shifter with a servo motor of some kind, then it might be possible..."

I have a Di2 Alfine on one of my drivetrain is disconnected from the motor drive hub bikes. Still protests while shifting under load but for sure it is better than cable.

Pinions are cool but expensive, frame specific and thus not applicable to mid kit conversions anyway.

 

[John and Cecil]

The pinion gearbox is interesting but it looks like it would need to be designed with a torque sensor and electric motor built into it, basically a one piece motor, crank, torque sensor, and transmission.

I just want to use the brake lever temporarily to see how well the motor reacts with a clutch button. If I decide to do something permanent (if the motor reacts quicker with less lag time) I would probably attach a low profile thumb button to my shifter lever. The motor may take a second or 2 to re-engage after the button is released which would defeat the purpose.

As for knowing which gear to be in I know, it is always first gear. That is what I do now, I hit a hill in 7th or 8th gear and then shift into 1st and wait until I get below 10mph to engage the motor and start pedaling. I would prefer to downshift several times during the process to maintain momentum but it is too difficult with all the lag time.

 

[gggplaya]

The pinion gearbox is interesting but it looks like it would need to be designed with a torque sensor and electric motor built into it, basically a one piece motor, crank, torque sensor, and transmission.

That's basically my idea of the perfect e-bike. Pinion gear box with an electric motor, all built into one central unit.

 

[John and Cecil]

I agree GGG, basically mini electric motorcycle engines. For now though I think a precise clutch (engine kill/shift sensor) may be the lightest workaround.

 

[hobbyvac]

Regarding shift sensors,.. I read somewhere that one of the high end manufacturers (maybe Bosch) "listens" for the unique sound shifting makes. Not sure what sensor they would use but the system may have to be tuned for a specific frame material to pick up the transmitted sound.

Using brake cutout switches without the brake would work but maybe you could make that switch work off the shifter movement instead. I am generally opposed to adding more layers of complication to fix a problem. I would be happy if the motor just cut of rapidly any time torque is not being applied. I understand you want the "soft start" but don't know why you would need a soft shutoff?

 

[Waynemarlow]

Considering the existing way all these little units transform rpm to very slow rpm at the drive unit then its only going to be a short time before they just add one more layer of planetary gears and a micro PC shifter and we could have all the speeds we ever need without any rear shifting needed.

I guess its just cost and development that a company has to outlay.

 

[gggplaya]

Considering the existing way all these little units transform rpm to very slow rpm at the drive unit then its only going to be a short time before they just add one more layer of planetary gears and a micro PC shifter and we could have all the speeds we ever need without any rear shifting needed.

I guess its just cost and development that a company has to outlay.

Nuvinci has already shown plans to integrate their cvt into a mid drive motor.

 

[eyebyesickle]

Yeah, I was wondering about the LB01... Because I asked TS about it suprised they didn't mention it to me, and now that makes sense...

Any more pics? Looks like the knockoff bafang motors that have been around forever... I wonder if it is just them with a torque sensor instead of the usual...or if it IS a YOCH (http://www.jhyoch.com/Mid-Drive-Motor.html) or XOFO (http://www.xofomotor.com)... Which would lead me to doubt specs (har har). Need the info!!

 

[jur]

I bought a 48V/500W TSDZ2 from @eyebeyesickle and installed it this weekend on my wife's Moulton APB. I have a BBS02 on my Moulton APB.

My BBS02's original firmware settings have been completely reconfigured; the original settings were frankly awful - various PAS levels had not only power levels associated, but speed limits as well which was for my type of cycling really totally useless. I am a reasonably strong rider; I wanted a bad weather bike and the Moulton APB with its full suspension is ideal for the mid motor conversion, making all extra weight fully suspended. So I configured it to just give increasing power levels for each PAS level, but no speed limits anywhere. The result is the natural bicycle feel is retained; the difference is that the riding becomes a little easier, as if a you have strong tailwind: Slight uphills become level, level becomes a slight downhill, and headwinds disappear. The pedalling still feels almost exactly as before, just a little easier, or much easier if I pick a higher power level. So I get a constant power added to whatever I am pedaling.

The TSDZ2, on the other hand, is very nice with the progressive power added as I put more torque on the pedals. Earlier reports in this thread said that the torque sensor is more like an on-off switch, but I can verify it's a proper proportional torque added to what I pedal. A real torque multiplier.

Overall, I think my programming of the BBS02 is more "bicycle-like" than the TSDZ2; but the variable power added to my effort from the TSDZ2 is very handy too. In some cases the BBS02 would be better, for example when I feel tired, I can ease off my own effort but the BBS02 keeps giving the same. On the TSDZ2 that effort would be dialed down too, perhaps necessitating selecting a higher level of torque multiplication.

After several days of commuting, some more observations:

• Chainline is better on the TSDZ2 than the BBS02.

• The 2 are both quiet, *maybe* the TSDZ is slightly louder but it is close to the same and inaudible when riding due to traffic and wind noise.

• Early bugs reported earlier in this thread seem to have been fixed. When the XH18 display turns off after a period of non-use, it can be turned on again without disconnecting the battery.

• The parameter setting section in the XH18 does not contain current limit; perhaps it never has, don't know. Just the normal range of stuff like wheel size and speed limit.

• When going into the mode of setting these items, the display changes, showing the list of parameters.

• Trip counter is reset when going into setting mode.

• Pedal assist turns off very quickly, easily inside half a second, hard to time. I have yet to experience that the motor keeps running after I stop the pedals, essentially it feels immediate.

• Factory settings are very useful. If I could I would change the assist torque multiplier settings from 33%, 100%, 200% and 300% to 50%, 100%, 150%, 200% to suit my style. Even though I am involved in the open source firmware development in a small way, I wouldn't change all that much. I would add a constant power assist in addition to the torque multiplier to each PAS setting to serve as a baseline power assist when backing off on the pedals, just a small amount to at least eliminate all drag plus some more, progressively more in each higher setting. It is nice to have constant power added, but it is also nive to be able to accelerate strongly when needed without having to bump up the level. That is a good safety feature in traffic.

 

[casainho]

• Factory settings are very useful. If I could I would change the assist torque multiplier settings from 33%, 100%, 200% and 300% to 50%, 100%, 150%, 200% to suit my style. Even though I am involved in the open source firmware development in a small way, I wouldn't change all that much. I would add a constant power assist in addition to the torque multiplier to each PAS setting to serve as a baseline power assist when backing off on the pedals, just a small amount to at least eliminate all drag plus some more, progressively more in each higher setting. It is nice to have constant power added, but it is also nive to be able to accelerate strongly when needed without having to bump up the level. That is a good safety feature in traffic.

I just experimented that feature on an expensie ebike and it is really good to have.

I will want to use instead LCD3 from Kunteng, as it shows motor power in real time. Also it let's configure a parameter to scale down the motor current from max value, a parameter that accepts 10 different values where 10 is max like 100% and 5 can be the 50%.
And the firmware is already done for that LCD, it works very well. The wires are just the same as TSDZ2 LCDs, including turn on/off the system.

Also, I plan to do the firmware for the LCD itself, since it is uses tje same STM8 as the motor controlers and this way we could add custom commands and improving some functionalities. Anyway, a lot of ideas but that can materialize as long as there are developers like you joining the project

 

[sijou]

I'm exploring the best options for converting my recumbent trike to a e-trike to boost my ever-shrinking muscle-power ( I'm 60++) with a bit of help. Having a Rohloff 14g sped-hub, so the only option is a mid-motor. To protect the rohloff hub,the logical choice is a torque sensing drive, and the TSDZ2 is the cheapest option. I have already 2 sets off the best batteries you can buy, both are 56V (14S) which have 3 years manufacturer warranty for power tools, air and chemical active cooling- you can guess which brand.. The highest capacity is 7.5 Amps, about 420Wh.
To my understanding from this forum, the only difference between the 48 and 52v versions of this motors is the controller- which enables the higher voltages ( maybe the mosfets and el-caps are higher v rated as well)- so the torque being the same only the rpm is changing from 4000 to 4500 (obviously no data sheet to be expected from the manufacturer about rpm vs torque curves- but i suppose its linear for brushless in the upper rpm's) Anyone any idea? AS I'm not interested in high speed (fractures are bad at 60++) probably the 500W motor with 4000RPM will do the job- the only disadvantage that I have to build a step-down converter (56-to48V) My questions is regarding the display units: some kits on Aliexpress are coming with VLCD5 in 2 different options: one with Cutoff Brake and Thumb Throttle and the other without. I suppose is the same display unit- or is different? ( without the extra inputs for these cables) If I would go for the Brake & Thumb control display, will this still work with the cables unplugged? (I don't want any thumb control- but I may use one off the brake signal's for an E-stop if the torque sensor fails to stop the motor..) What would be the best display unit for this drive? I've seen another seller supplies the kit with the DPC-18 display. Is that any better? The other more interesting question is: why would you need a throttle control? Isn't the torque sensor's output controlling the motor's RPM? ( higher torque/ pedaling= higher speed?) I would appreciate your comments and advises.

 

[gggplaya]

I'm exploring the best options for converting my recumbent trike to a e-trike to boost my ever-shrinking muscle-power ( I'm 60++) with a bit of help. Having a Rohloff 14g sped-hub, so the only option is a mid-motor. To protect the rohloff hub,the logical choice is a torque sensing drive, and the TSDZ2 is the cheapest option. I have already 2 sets off the best batteries you can buy, both are 56V (14S) which have 3 years manufacturer warranty for power tools, air and chemical active cooling- you can guess which brand.. The highest capacity is 7.5 Amps, about 420Wh.
To my understanding from this forum, the only difference between the 48 and 52v versions of this motors is the controller- which enables the higher voltages ( maybe the mosfets and el-caps are higher v rated as well)- so the torque being the same only the rpm is changing from 4000 to 4500 (obviously no data sheet to be expected from the manufacturer about rpm vs torque curves- but i suppose its linear for brushless in the upper rpm's) Anyone any idea? AS I'm not interested in high speed (fractures are bad at 60++) probably the 500W motor with 4000RPM will do the job- the only disadvantage that I have to build a step-down converter (56-to48V) My questions is regarding the display units: some kits on Aliexpress are coming with VLCD5 in 2 different options: one with Cutoff Brake and Thumb Throttle and the other without. I suppose is the same display unit- or is different? ( without the extra inputs for these cables) If I would go for the Brake & Thumb control display, will this still work with the cables unplugged? (I don't want any thumb control- but I may use one off the brake signal's for an E-stop if the torque sensor fails to stop the motor..) What would be the best display unit for this drive? I've seen another seller supplies the kit with the DPC-18 display. Is that any better? The other more interesting question is: why would you need a throttle control? Isn't the torque sensor's output controlling the motor's RPM? ( higher torque/ pedaling= higher speed?) I would appreciate your comments and advises.

Throttle is nice for commuters, people not interested in working out, but looking to get from point A to B. Also for people with bodily injuries, if they are in pain or overwhelmed by a hill or something, they can use the throttle to get home or use it for a quick full boost up a steep hill.

 

[John and Cecil]

I would add a constant power assist in addition to the torque multiplier to each PAS setting to serve as a baseline power assist when backing off on the pedals, just a small amount to at least eliminate all drag plus some more, progressively more in each higher setting. It is nice to have constant power added, but it is also nive to be able to accelerate strongly when needed without having to bump up the level. That is a good safety feature in traffic.[/list]

I use the throttle for this, when something happens and I need full power it is easier and less distracting to just push the thumb throttle rather than switch from eco to turbo. The only problem is when you are riding in eco and you use the throttle the motor cuts out for about a second before it kicks back in again.

 

[John and Cecil]

Hmmm. This lag time between assist and throttle has me thinking. I wonder if the lag time of the throttle would be enough to sneak in a shift It might be just enough time to make a clean shift while maintaining cadence. I will give it a try after it stops raining.

 

[casainho]

Got a 48V motor and 48V controller and finally were able to drive my ebike with TSDZ2!! Really good, now I understand why they are so popular!!

The cables of the controller couldn't be inserted on the original hole because of the sockets so I quick and dirty did a hole -- the metal is very soft.

The LCD has the symbol watts, we can see that when we turn on the display, but the LCD can't show the watts of the motor -- seems an unfinished product :-(
Don't even show the voltage of the battery... LCD3 is much better!!

 

[casainho]

Loving the first hours and ride with TSDZ2 48V version - very good torque!! At least from my limited experience.

I had to climb some hills and I wounder if I was riding with best bicycle gear so the motor is most efficient possible, assuming there are some motor speed range were it happens. Does anyone know if there is a speed range where this happens?? If so, could we calculate in any way, could the firmware calculate and indicate on the LCD like the cards does?

 

[anttipaa]

How does TSDZ2 compare to Bosch/Yamaha/Brose motors? There should be more good torque sensing kits..

http://www.sachsteile.de/WebRoot/Store16/Shops/78265988/5934/4799/21D6/4C9C/8183/C0A8/2ABB/038E/SG_6706.jpg
What bearing is number 7? 6902?

 

[hobbyvac]

I rode a bike with the Brose motor and didn't really expect this cheaper option to measure up at least in terms of refinement. I have to admit they are VERY comparable! Power, noise, assist levels, rider experience, all very similar. I tell people I wasn't expecting e-bikes to reach this level of refinement for another several years. I also wasn't expecting such good range, it really brought the fun back to cycling for me.

 

[John and Cecil]

Well I was able to test the throttle as a clutch today and it actually works. There is so much lag between assist and throttle that it might even be possible to shift twice. It is going to take some getting used to but it you push the throttle an instant before shifting the motor instantly dies out briefly, then when you release the throttle the assist kicks in nearly instantly as well.

As for hill climbing efficiency, I believe you want to be in the upper 80% of the rpm range give or take. I always climb hills in 1st gear for now until I reduce my gearing. I know that 90 rpm's (motor top speed) in 1st gear is 10mph for me, so I generally try to feather the throttle so I climb hills at around 8-9mph. I try to never drop below 7mph if possible.

 

[casainho]

My TSDZ2 blue gear wore out in the second day I have the motor, in less than 20 kms of usage. Yes, I was always at the heavier gear of my bike -- time to buy the metal gear

 

[John and Cecil]

I don't see how you could have hosed that gear so quickly? We have 250 miles already, and we are pushing 210 lbs of rider weight with lots of 10%+ grade hills. Perhaps you are braking with the engine pulling at the same time? The metal gear is a good idea but if whatever happened to the blue gear continues it may damage the next weakest link in the motor assembly next time. Maybe someone else with more experience with this motor will have some better input.