New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[ornias]

..... TSDZ2B which I think has helical gears on the right side. I’m I correct that the “B” has helical gears?

Only till about 2018 tsdz2 had straight gears, after this date all have helical gears.
The difference with tsdz2B is the double sprag clutch on the main gear, which has nothing to do with helical or straight gear.
Straight gears were indeed noisy, but the whining you have must have another cause

There is this quote indicating that replacing the bearing on the speed reducing shaft with a high quality one greatly reduces noise:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=9425#p1725515
I never tried it, as my motors are not that loud (or our ears are not that good anymore…): The 2 motors currently in use were bought used and we have put 1500 additional km‘s on them w/o issues. Noise is not that loud.

To be fair, with the relatively low costs of bearings: Just replace them all with good quality japanese bearings if you open it up anyway and add the few on the usual spots.
Including replacing the clutch for a 140nm rated BB30-1K-K instead of 110nm rated standard clutch bearing.

 

[endlessolli]

There is this quote indicating that replacing the bearing on the speed reducing shaft with a high quality one greatly reduces noise:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=9425#p1725515
I never tried it, as my motors are not that loud (or our ears are not that good anymore…): The 2 motors currently in use were bought used and we have put 1500 additional km‘s on them w/o issues. Noise is not that loud.

To be fair, with the relatively low costs of bearings: Just replace them all with good quality japanese bearings if you open it up anyway and add the few on the usual spots.
Including replacing the clutch for a 140nm rated BB30-1K-K instead of 110nm rated standard clutch bearing.

As I like the ‚keep it simple approach‘, I would not recommend that: A higher pitch Whining noise is more likely to originate from the high rpm parts of the gears. These are easily accessible opening just the left side motor enclosure. For replacing the (low rpm) sprag clutch, you have to open the right side of the motor and (worst case, depending of how tight the fit between torque sensor shaft and the large gear is) also dismantle the fiddely spring loaded torque sensor - and you need special tools to press out the sprag clutch.

But that aside: In the case of a real sprag clutch failure (i.e. slipping): Do you have experience with the BB30-1K-K ? Beside higher torque capability - how does it compare in lateral play (-> wobble of the large gear) and drag in the ‚free-wheel—direction‘?
Also: Do you have experience / recommendations on how to press out the old and press in the new sprag clutch - without special tools?

 

[ornias]

There is this quote indicating that replacing the bearing on the speed reducing shaft with a high quality one greatly reduces noise:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=9425#p1725515
I never tried it, as my motors are not that loud (or our ears are not that good anymore…): The 2 motors currently in use were bought used and we have put 1500 additional km‘s on them w/o issues. Noise is not that loud.

To be fair, with the relatively low costs of bearings: Just replace them all with good quality japanese bearings if you open it up anyway and add the few on the usual spots.
Including replacing the clutch for a 140nm rated BB30-1K-K instead of 110nm rated standard clutch bearing.

As I like the ‚keep it simple approach‘, I would not recommend that: A higher pitch Whining noise is more likely to originate from the high rpm parts of the gears. These are easily accessible opening just the left side motor enclosure. For replacing the (low rpm) sprag clutch, you have to open the right side of the motor and (worst case, depending of how tight the fit between torque sensor shaft and the large gear is) also dismantle the fiddely spring loaded torque sensor - and you need special tools to press out the sprag clutch.

But that aside: In the case of a real sprag clutch failure (i.e. slipping): Do you have experience with the BB30-1K-K ? Beside higher torque capability - how does it compare in lateral play (-> wobble of the large gear) and drag in the ‚free-wheel—direction‘?
Also: Do you have experience / recommendations on how to press out the old and press in the new sprag clutch - without special tools?

You're serieusly asking about lateral play in a motor with these utterly abysmall design tolerances? :')

But no, I personally have no experience with said clutch, besides it being marketed as simply the better clutch of the two. One being a cheap chinese clutch bearing, the other being a high quality japanese clutch bearing. I know which one is bettery from the spec sheet

But on the topic of removal: There are some references of there being some-sort of glue applied. Which does make sense, because everything on the bike is made using cheap clearence fits.

 

[endlessolli]

You're serieusly asking about lateral play in a motor with these utterly abysmall design tolerances? :')

But no, I personally have no experience with said clutch, besides it being marketed as simply the better clutch of the two. One being a cheap chinese clutch bearing, the other being a high quality japanese clutch bearing. I know which one is bettery from the spec sheet

But on the topic of removal: There are some references of there being some-sort of glue applied. Which does make sense, because everything on the bike is made using cheap clearence fits.

I asked about a *relative* comparison of the 2 - that is independend of their design tolerances.
But as you state - you have no hands on experience w/ the clutch you recommend(?)

Pls note that you can buy the CSK30P also as a high quality part (Stieber >100$), so your comparison "CSK30P cheap crappy chinese vs BB30-1K-K good japanese" is not really fair.

The sprag clutches are press fitted - so glued or not, you need a hydraulic press to exchange them.
That is why I asked about hands-on experience w/ DIY tools or procedures for exchanging them

 

[ornias]

You're serieusly asking about lateral play in a motor with these utterly abysmall design tolerances? :')

But no, I personally have no experience with said clutch, besides it being marketed as simply the better clutch of the two. One being a cheap chinese clutch bearing, the other being a high quality japanese clutch bearing. I know which one is bettery from the spec sheet

But on the topic of removal: There are some references of there being some-sort of glue applied. Which does make sense, because everything on the bike is made using cheap clearence fits.

I asked about a *relative* comparison of the 2 - that is independend of their design tolerances.
But as you state - you have no hands on experience w/ the clutch you recommend(?)

Pls note that you can buy the CSK30P also as a high quality part (Stieber >100$), so your comparison "CSK30P cheap crappy chinese vs BB30-1K-K good japanese" is not really fair.

The sprag clutches are press fitted - so glued or not, you need a hydraulic press to exchange them.
That is why I asked about hands-on experience w/ DIY tools or procedures for exchanging them

Thanks for the link to the stieber CSK30P
Still, a heavy rider will already likely overload the 110nm the CSK30P is rated for though.

I'm an proponent of replacing all chinesium bearings and there are a lot of resources available online for each of them, including the clutch I referenced.

I'll leave it at that, as I rather spend my time on something else.

 

[ornias]

I've created the pedal axle in Fusion 360, you can view/download it here: https://a360.co/3gwHR9I
The dimensions should be pretty good but an error is always possible.

I set the axle diameter to 15mm instead of the 14.9mm they did. If it is made with the popper tolerance (h7 in Europe, maybe US have different notations) the bearings should just slide without any play.

I don't have any tools to make it but it shouldn't be that hard to get a few manufactured, the only hard part is the spline that require a custom tool, unfortunately I don't have time right now to ask around.

Bit late to the party, but can you, or someone else, modify it to not-include the doomed circlip groove at all?
That way we basically have something we could, in theory, just end into a machine shop and have made without the flaws.

I think i've managed to edit the file by @romelec to leave out the outside circlip groves.

When made using a decently hard steel with a h7/h6 fit and some additional glue/loctite between bearings and axle (to compensate for the lack of locking ring), it should prevent all known axle failures.

Update:
2D drawings are half-way done by now and i've got some interesting (and less interesting) quotes to get these things actually machined as well.
Hope to get the drawings verified by my mechanist friend next few weeks as well :-D

 

[pxl666]

The sprag clutches are press fitted - so glued or not, you need a hydraulic press to exchange them.
That is why I asked about hands-on experience w/ DIY tools or procedures for exchanging them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjXFF2ewwC4

 

[endlessolli]

The sprag clutches are press fitted - so glued or not, you need a hydraulic press to exchange them.
That is why I asked about hands-on experience w/ DIY tools or procedures for exchanging them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjXFF2ewwC4

Thanks - great video!
(I don't speak polish, but I think I got most of the details just by watching what he is doing.)

 

[dameri]

If I drive, for example, with a power of 200 watts, the motor power suddenly drops to 10 watts for half a second and then returns to 200 watts. This keeps repeating every five seconds or so. So the driving is pretty jerky. What could be wrong. Is it a hardware problem or a software problem?

Usually, the TSDZ2 works perfectly normally in the morning, but when I turn off the power, for example, to go to the store and then continue driving, the problem appears.

 

[ornias]

The sprag clutches are press fitted - so glued or not, you need a hydraulic press to exchange them.
That is why I asked about hands-on experience w/ DIY tools or procedures for exchanging them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjXFF2ewwC4

Thanks - great video!
(I don't speak polish, but I think I got most of the details just by watching what he is doing.)

Addition, this is an example of a hand press for transition fits or light interference fits.
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/33006105811.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2nld

Cheaper to source locally btw.
But in that regard it should also be duable to find someone with one in a recent range that can press one bearing in

 

[Matze_Senpai]

hello so i just opened my tsdz2 to regrease it and it looks like this. guess i need a new gear
im running 52v@16a OSF with vlcd5 and throttle.
now my question is: did this happen because i didn't clean the old grease enough and the two grease combined OR did i run my motor too hard or a combination of both?

 

[pxl666]

hello so i just opened my tsdz2 to regrease it and it looks like this. guess i need a new gear
im running 52v@16a OSF with vlcd5 and throttle.
now my question is: did this happen because i didn't clean the old grease enough and the two grease combined OR did i run my motor too hard or a combination of both?

nothing weird was happening before ? no weird noises? how does the steel gear looks like ? I mean the small one on nylon gear ?

 

[Matze_Senpai]

hello so i just opened my tsdz2 to regrease it and it looks like this. guess i need a new gear
im running 52v@16a OSF with vlcd5 and throttle.
now my question is: did this happen because i didn't clean the old grease enough and the two grease combined OR did i run my motor too hard or a combination of both?

nothing weird was happening before ? no weird noises? how does the steel gear looks like ? I mean the small one on nylon gear ?

yes around 50km before it started to sound kind of dry. like it needed some grease(thats what i thought).the small steel gear looks fine. it was kind of a pain to clean this mess tho :thumb:

 

[beemac]

hello so i just opened my tsdz2 to regrease it and it looks like this. guess i need a new gear
im running 52v@16a OSF with vlcd5 and throttle.
now my question is: did this happen because i didn't clean the old grease enough and the two grease combined OR did i run my motor too hard or a combination of both?

nothing weird was happening before ? no weird noises? how does the steel gear looks like ? I mean the small one on nylon gear ?

yes around 50km before it started to sound kind of dry. like it needed some grease(thats what i thought).the small steel gear looks fine. it was kind of a pain to clean this mess tho :thumb:

How do you ride? Do you use a throttle? If so, do you use it from standstill? Do you use brake sensors? Do you go up steep hills?

My guess is that this is more likely to happen if you use the throttle, especially from a slow start - and/or you don't have brake sensors and brake a lot under power. But I know some don't agree that brake sensors are necessary...

 

[HughF]

Been away from here for a while, just enjoying my TSDZ2 bikes... Now thinking about options for making them quieter as the noise is starting to become annoying...

I guess it's the usual, strip, clean, debur, re-grease?

 

[ornias]

hello so i just opened my tsdz2 to regrease it and it looks like this. guess i need a new gear
im running 52v@16a OSF with vlcd5 and throttle.
now my question is: did this happen because i didn't clean the old grease enough and the two grease combined OR did i run my motor too hard or a combination of both?

Either throttle+breaking or, not inheard of, shifting under load (which also causes torque spikes).

But, what I find more important personally, what grease did you use? As not all greases can actually be mixed at all!

 

[pxl666]

Addition, this is an example of a hand press for transition fits or light interference fits.
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/33006105811.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2nld

Cheaper to source locally btw.
But in that regard it should also be duable to find someone with one in a recent range that can press one bearing in

most things can be pressed with vise big enough . you only have to select right size of pipe pieces or sockets

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R77Non6TBW4

 

[ornias]

Addition, this is an example of a hand press for transition fits or light interference fits.
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/33006105811.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2nld

Cheaper to source locally btw.
But in that regard it should also be duable to find someone with one in a recent range that can press one bearing in

most things can be pressed with vise big enough . you only have to select right size of pipe pieces or sockets

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R77Non6TBW4

100% correct as well

Just wanted to throw out some options not including a hammer

 

[ornias]

Can someone with a hardness test kit grab me a quick test-result of their stock TSDZ2 axle?

I'm aiming for a custom axle somewhere between 50 and 60 HRC... But don't have a test kit at hand to test the current axle.

 

[Matze_Senpai]

hello so i just opened my tsdz2 to regrease it and it looks like this. guess i need a new gear
im running 52v@16a OSF with vlcd5 and throttle.
now my question is: did this happen because i didn't clean the old grease enough and the two grease combined OR did i run my motor too hard or a combination of both?

nothing weird was happening before ? no weird noises? how does the steel gear looks like ? I mean the small one on nylon gear ?

yes around 50km before it started to sound kind of dry. like it needed some grease(thats what i thought).the small steel gear looks fine. it was kind of a pain to clean this mess tho :thumb:

How do you ride? Do you use a throttle? If so, do you use it from standstill? Do you use brake sensors? Do you go up steep hills?

My guess is that this is more likely to happen if you use the throttle, especially from a slow start - and/or you don't have brake sensors and brake a lot under power. But I know some don't agree that brake sensors are necessary...

i use throttle mostly, also from standstill but . no i dont use brake sensors because i have hydraulic brakes and i dont care about buying these magnetic brake sensors. also yes i shift while on throttle i know this isnt good for the drivetrain but replacement parts are cheap on my bike(8 speed)

 

[Matze_Senpai]

hello so i just opened my tsdz2 to regrease it and it looks like this. guess i need a new gear
im running 52v@16a OSF with vlcd5 and throttle.
now my question is: did this happen because i didn't clean the old grease enough and the two grease combined OR did i run my motor too hard or a combination of both?

Either throttle+breaking or, not inheard of, shifting under load (which also causes torque spikes).

But, what I find more important personally, what grease did you use? As not all greases can actually be mixed at all!

interesting, i didn't know that shifting under load has any effect on the motor until now. yes i did that every now and then.. i use lucas red tacky n2 grease (some people here said its good so i chose it)

 

[ornias]

hello so i just opened my tsdz2 to regrease it and it looks like this. guess i need a new gear
im running 52v@16a OSF with vlcd5 and throttle.
now my question is: did this happen because i didn't clean the old grease enough and the two grease combined OR did i run my motor too hard or a combination of both?

Either throttle+breaking or, not inheard of, shifting under load (which also causes torque spikes).

But, what I find more important personally, what grease did you use? As not all greases can actually be mixed at all!

interesting, i didn't know that shifting under load has any effect on the motor until now. yes i did that every now and then.. i use lucas red tacky n2 grease (some people here said its good so i chose it)

Well, if you shift under load on a normal bike, you do feel the resistence "KLACK KLACK". I also wouldn't advice those peaks on a motor. But doing it "sometimes" shouldn't cause this kind of damage, no.

On the topic of grease: Red and Tacky is amazing, but afaik you shouldn't mix lithium grease with non lithium grease regardless of quality

 

[pxl666]

if grease is discussed - what do you think of MOBIL SHC POLYREX 462 ?

 

[beemac]

nothing weird was happening before ? no weird noises? how does the steel gear looks like ? I mean the small one on nylon gear ?

yes around 50km before it started to sound kind of dry. like it needed some grease(thats what i thought).the small steel gear looks fine. it was kind of a pain to clean this mess tho :thumb:

How do you ride? Do you use a throttle? If so, do you use it from standstill? Do you use brake sensors? Do you go up steep hills?

My guess is that this is more likely to happen if you use the throttle, especially from a slow start - and/or you don't have brake sensors and brake a lot under power. But I know some don't agree that brake sensors are necessary...

i use throttle mostly, also from standstill but . no i dont use brake sensors because i have hydraulic brakes and i dont care about buying these magnetic brake sensors. also yes i shift while on throttle i know this isnt good for the drivetrain but replacement parts are cheap on my bike(8 speed)

Imho it's using the throttle from standstill that's going to contribute a lot to this sort of wear I would think. Using the motor only to accelerate from a standing start puts much more torque through the motor gearing than if you start by pedalling and use the motor to assist your pedalling.

I also think that brake sensors are necessary - in a car when you brake to a stop you don't just expect the engine to just stop with you - you depress the clutch (or the automatic gearbox does it for you) to disengage the motor and stop it stalling. If you don't have brake sensors and you're pedalling whilst braking or the motor is simply running on a bit - you're putting pressure on the motor gearing as it's trying to push you forward as you hold it back with the brakes - that's going to cause more cog wear...

 

[Matze_Senpai]

yes around 50km before it started to sound kind of dry. like it needed some grease(thats what i thought).the small steel gear looks fine. it was kind of a pain to clean this mess tho :thumb:

How do you ride? Do you use a throttle? If so, do you use it from standstill? Do you use brake sensors? Do you go up steep hills?

My guess is that this is more likely to happen if you use the throttle, especially from a slow start - and/or you don't have brake sensors and brake a lot under power. But I know some don't agree that brake sensors are necessary...

i use throttle mostly, also from standstill but . no i dont use brake sensors because i have hydraulic brakes and i dont care about buying these magnetic brake sensors. also yes i shift while on throttle i know this isnt good for the drivetrain but replacement parts are cheap on my bike(8 speed)

Imho it's using the throttle from standstill that's going to contribute a lot to this sort of wear I would think. Using the motor only to accelerate from a standing start puts much more torque through the motor gearing than if you start by pedalling and use the motor to assist your pedalling.

I also think that brake sensors are necessary - in a car when you brake to a stop you don't just expect the engine to just stop with you - you depress the clutch (or the automatic gearbox does it for you) to disengage the motor and stop it stalling. If you don't have brake sensors and you're pedalling whilst braking or the motor is simply running on a bit - you're putting pressure on the motor gearing as it's trying to push you forward as you hold it back with the brakes - that's going to cause more cog wear...

thanks....looks like i will buy the brake sensors now! and hope this time my motor will stay good