Newly released Cyclone 3000Watt 48V Brushless motor

[boostjuice]

I just thought i would let people know that Cyclone http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order.htm have recently added 3000Watt (4329Watts peak) motor kits to their existing product line which they claim can achieve speeds up to 90kph (54Mph). Interestingly the buyer has the option of purchasing them with or without the recommended Kelly 48V 75A KEB48300 controller, a move away from the universally adopted 'Headline-Motor' controllers offered for all other models.

I just think every power hungry e-biker should throw this option into the equation of choice when tossing up between an overvolted 2kw+ Crystalyte X5 or a 3kw+ RC style BB-drive/direct-drive system. Although I'm all for RC motors which have the obvious weight/efficiency advantages, this other option of heavier/high power/lower RPM motors require less reduction and so can be made to work without the need for such a complicated gearbox that the RC motors require. In other words, they can be a bit easier to setup compared with the elite RC drive that Matt is working on, but obviously more difficult than a hub motor.
Ive personally coupled my motor to a bevel-helical gearunit that not only reduces the high rpm with only a 6% power loss, but as power exits the box 90degrees offset to the motor shaft, the long barrelled motor can be mounted in line with the frame tubing (refer to my avatar). This removes the need for an extended bottom bracket spindle that has you pedaling like a bow-legged cowboy (my main complaint with the standard cyclone kit setup)

I confirmed with "Paco" (Cyclone sales rep) that the 3kw version uses the same casing as the 1kw version. This achievement is no surprise as when i opened up mine to inspect the internals of my 1kw version, only about half the casing length is filled with magnets/windings. Plenty of room for increased power. EDIT - on further discussion with "Paco", the 3kw motor is physically identical to the 1kw motor, it is only the more powerful controller that warrants the advertised power increase.

As an owner of the 1000watt kit i can say that despite design/quality problems with many components in the kit, the motors are very good quality with great performance. I get a flat ground top speed of 59kph (35mph) through my BB drive system.
Its interesting to note that the motors and controllers are manufactured by "headline-motor Taiwan"http://www.headline-motor.com/main_e.htm which are then on-sold by Cyclone with their added lower quality components. Unfortunately, when i emailed them, Headline-Motors were not interested in selling small quantities directly to e-bike users, preferring to deal with large scale commercial orders only.

The 1000Watt motor has rated continuous 83.46Kg-cm (~8.2Nm) of torque at 2200rpm. When geared down for a BB drive cadence of 75rpm, this equates to 240Nm of torque at the crank, or ~72Nm of torque at a 250rpm wheel speed (~30kph/ 26" rim) in a direct drive system. This is pretty impressive! especially when compared with the usual competetor, a brushed MY1020 48V 1kw Unite motor that offers only around 3.2Nm max in their peak torque zone. http://www.cn-dcmotors.com/productShows.asp?ArticleID=276

Cyclone Dynometer plot 1kw

Cyclone have a patchy/incomplete website, so torque figures/dyno plot for the new 3000watt motor haven't been listed yet, but they do quote 3000Watt (4329Watts peak), whereas the 1000watt motor draws peak watts up around 2400Watts.

Anyway, i just thought id let people know about them due to my success using them.

Cheers

 

[GGoodrum]

Thanks for the headsup on this new product. I totally agree with your comments that the motor/controller/throttle quality of the 1000w kit is first-rate. The rest of the kit is crap. All they do is give you the basic 500/650W mounting bits and pieces, with a hacked up motor mount and absolutely zero instructions. Most of the bits are useless.

Anyway, the performance of my 1000W setup is pretty amazing. By being able to take advantage of my bike's 3-speed Nexus hub, I can get more torque on 48V and 55A than I could with an x5 setup on the same bike, running on 72V and 65A. The top-end is at least the same, or higher, as well.

-- Gary

 

[etard]

Boostjuice,
Thats alot to take in, I am very interested in the hellical gearbox you have. I was under the assumption that all right angle drives were extremely inefficient, please tell us more and dish some pics please! I always thought a right angle gearbox would tidy up all that Cyclone crank arm nonsense. How do you transfer all that power to you tire, through your chain? What kind of battery do you need for 54 mph?

Well, its always good to have more options, just when I thought I had seen it all....

 

[boostjuice]

Boostjuice,
Thats alot to take in, I am very interested in the helical gearbox you have. I was under the assumption that all right angle drives were extremely inefficient. I always thought a right angle gearbox would tidy up all that Cyclone crank arm nonsense.

I agree. In my internet wanderings i've found that very few e-bike builders seem to consider high power right angled reduction gearunits, and those that do usually seem to use the inefficient worm-gear styles like this;

This bike uses a 1000watt MY1020 unite motor with an attached high reduction worm-gearunit. Alot of power, but alot goes to waste. It was this bike that inspired me to improve on its shortcomings for my build.

Worm-gear style reduction units have terrible dynamic efficiency. That is, transmission efficiency decreases dramatically with higher rpm and higher reduction ratios. This is because worm style gearboxes loose alot of energy to friction losses based on how the worm and wheel mesh. At high power/high reduction they can have dynamic efficiencies varying to as low as ~20%. They do however have the advantage of being extremely compact for large reductions, and have high output shaft torque for a small size based on the multiple contact points in the gear meshing. A few links if you want understand this better.
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Drive/Gear_Efficiency.html
http://www.rushgears.com/Gear_Types/wormGears.php

Bevel-Helcial right-angle reduction units on the other hand loose only ~2%>4% per stage (3% per stage for the one im using), and this is constant regardless of reduction/rpm. Using these on e-bikes seems to be largely unexplored (I havent found a single example on the web, although i suspect the 'Optibike' uses one but they dont publish details about their patented MBB - Motorised Bottom Bracket)

Whilst Bevel-Helical are limited in their reduction range per stage compared with worm-gears, their high static efficiency means multiple stages are worthwhile. It is true they are a bit heaver and larger for the same output shaft torque/reduction but the extra weight is made up for with efficiency. This all convinced me to use one.

Because the first stages of reduction are made using low noise helical gear meshing, gear noise is minimal and so removes the shortcomings of high rpm chain reduction. A common complaint about the Cyclone 1000watt 6t>44t chain reduction designed into the kit which cant use a similar compact planetary box as the smaller cyclone motors because the output torque is too much for them (Paco's words).
Thus helical bevel offers a high power alternative over primary belt reduction as used in Matts upcoming (and i openly admit, superior) RC drive system.

The gear unit i am using is an Italian made 'Bonfiglioli' A05 casing size, dual stage Bevel-Helical gear unit. http://www.bonfiglioli.com/apres_uk.html
The A05 size is the smallest case size in the range and offers gear ratios of 5.5:1 > 45.5:1 with an output shaft torque maximum of 100Nm.
my unit weighs 5.5kg (12lbs). Dimensions are roughly 100mm wide by 120mm tall by 213mm length. It is coupled to my 5kg(11lb)Cyclone 1kw motor via a custom made faceplate adapter and motor shaft adaptor. Yes it is a heavy powertrain at 11.5kg (25.4lbs), but mostorous power makes up for the weight at least as far as speed/acceleration is concerned (handling is effected more than most e-bikes but wieght distribution on my bike is quite good so im happy with it). The system is mounted under and inline with the frame of my 2008 Mongoose "black diamond double" freeride mountain bike, without modification to my standard pedal width (spindle length).

For my purposes i chose a total internal two-stage gear reduction of 10.6:1 which requires a 3rd reduction to be made via chain to the bottom bracket chainring. This further reduction is made via a 16t freewheel on the gearunit output shaft coupled to a 39t road chainring on the freewheel crank bottom bracket using strong BMX chain. This makes a total reduction of (10.6 x (39/16) = 25.84:1) between the motor and the BB.
I couldnt choose a higher reduction within the gearunit because the output torque would exceed the units maximum 100Nm output torque (8.2Nm Motor torque x 10.6 = 87Nm) and using a higher torque rated larger casing would weigh too much and be too bulky. Either way, 3rd stage chain reduction is noiseless due to the low rpm.

The Cyclone 1kw dyno plot suggests they have a best-compromise operating point around 2200rpm which brings it down to 2200rpm/25.84 = 85rpm at the crank, my favourite pedal cadence. Added torque to the crank is then (25.84 x 8.2Nm = 212Nm) The equivelant to a 127kg(280lb) rider standing on 170mm length cranks. This torque is reduced at the wheel depending on what gear im in on my 11t>34t 9spd rear gear cluster. For top gear (59kph/35mph) this is (212Nm/(55t/11t) = 42.4Nm) at the wheel. For lowest gear this is (212Nm/(55t/34t) = 131Nm)) at the wheel (stump pulling torque!).
Power loss (watts)is debatable/variable, so i dont bother trying to calculate that. I just know that despite the 4 transaxles, its got alot better efficiency than a worm-gear unit.

The 39t chainwheel is bolted to a 55t road bike chainwheel which are both custom adapted to a White Industries ENO 22t freewheel mounted on Echo ISIS trials crankset (longer lasting than the crappy cyclone freewheel crank system). The 55t chainring is then chain coupled to the 11>34t rear 9spd cluster. This allows me to pedal assist at my natural cadence all the way to the motors maximum speed (59kph/35mph). It is true i loose my ultra low gear range by having such a large 55t chainring driving the rear cluster, but with all the added power i can still climb steep mountains even in the less lower bottom gears.

The combined package maximises efficiency/power for hill climbing and top speed, a valuable attribute over direct drive in my opinion. The dual freewheels mean i can ride completely under the motors power, or pedal assist, or pedal entirely without having to turn over the resistance of the motor or have the cranks spin of their own accord (very dangerous).

How do you transfer all that power to you tire, through your chain?

Your concerns are warranted here as i do have to replace the narrow 9spd chain often due to stretch, but i havent broken one yet. Ive managed to minimise this once i got over the intial joys of ownership where i was often accelerating hard which we all know puts peak torque loads far exceeding the continuous load. Anyway, chain is cheap so id rather keep replacing them than go to a stronger direct drive chain which would deny me use of my 9spd cluster.

please tell us more and dish some pics please!

Sorry, i cant show you pictures of the actual bike as i dont yet own a digital camera
Here is how it is configured though.

What kind of battery do you need for 54 mph?

For the 3kw motor, the recommended kelly controller is rated at 75A continuous. For a 48V 20Ah LiFePO4battery pack thats a demand for 3.75C continuous. Peak power of 4329Watts would draw 90Amps at 48V disregarding efficiency losses, so that would push battery requirement to >4.5C peaks. You'd probably be wanting to use PSI cells or better.

 

[Miles]

(I havent found a single example on the web, although i suspect the 'Optibike' uses one but they dont publish details about their patented MBB - Motorised Bottom Bracket)

boostjuice,

Optibike uses a 2 stage epicyclic. See the patent here: http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=US&NR=2002014366A1&KC=B2&FT=D&date=20031007&DB=&locale=

 

[recumpence]

I have alot of experience running high power and high speed RC cars. Most of them use helical bevel gear systems. They are, indeed, very efficient and high power handling.

I do like the layout of your setup.

My drive system is n ot superior. It is just refined. Power handling is roughly 5kw. The nice thing about timing belts is a relatively consistant efficiency percentage independant of RPM untill you reach about 15,000. At that point, the efficiency goes down.

Anyway, I am glad to see the new 3kw motor kit. High power definately has its place in our hobby!

Matt

 

[John in CR]

Bootsjuice,

Ouch! 12lbs for the gearbox, and probably expensive too. I plan to use the gearbox from an angle grinder as right angle reduction. For it's designed use it accepts very high speed input and needs to be strong, and contains a helical gearset. Plus it's cheap and lightweight. I picked up a 2nd grinder before cannibalizing the first one, and the one from the McCullough is quite a bit more efficient than the Black&Decker. How do I know?...The B&D gearbox gets very hot quite quickly, and the McCullough gets only warm even after 30min or so of near continuous use. Considering the abuse an angle grinder takes, I've gotta believe it would be durable in Ebike use, and is even an option for high speed RC motors.

John

 

[johnnyz]

Hi there

I have a Cyclone 1200 watt motor and i have gone through 2 controllers. I hooked up a watt meter and it would pull up to 51 amps under heavy load!. The controller is rated for 35 amps so not sure if this is what is kiing the controller. The motor will get hot under this full thottle load and shut down. Ive tried the fin package and it helps but occasionaly it still will shut down. I have purchased a Kelly Controller KEB 48300. I need to know how to hook this up to my set up. Phase wires and throttle. Anybody know how to do this??

Thanks

John

 

[rojitor]

3000 sounds great, i wonder how noisy it will be...

 

[damonjackson_spl]

That cyclone link won't open for me

After replacing the standard mounting kit of the cyclone with an e-go style plates mounting to the BB and chainguide the 1200w is phenomenal!!! We also opted for a lyen mark II controller with great success. This 3000w motor is going to be badass. Have they got a price yet?

 

[Miles]

That cyclone link won't open for me ............. This 3000w motor is going to be badass. Have they got a price yet?

The post is from 2008 :wink: