OOPS...I tried to post my E-Bike on a MTB forum

[Leebolectric]

So...I believe I learned something today...
I took a few years off the MTB forums, and missed this whole E-bike hatred meeting.
...and they let me know that they all hate us E-folk with a passion...endless fat jokes and lazy comments...buncha dicks...
... so here's my rebuttal...what do ya'll think?

"My local riding friends and I agree, E-Bikes are not for the prime singletrack...and that's the plan I had all along for this new bike...but it IS perfect for a lot of things.
We build downhill tracks and singletrack...and will build a track just for these types of bikes...nobody will be hurt or loose their favorite trail. Please believe me.

As I understand it, the biggest worries are "Damage to trails" and "closure of trails".
I agree with those, but personally I think instant hate for e-bikes is "short sighted".

The bigger picture that I believe is being missed is as follows.
MTB will benefit from E-Bikes if they embrace them.
This does not mean letting them wreck trails or behave poorly...but teach them, and educate them on the rules and regions that they can ride.
MTB clubs pass out trail maps, list trail conditions, offer guides, and promote cycling in their areas...I think they should do that for e-bikes too.
It would not take much effort to make a map of e-bike friendly riding areas...and treat e-bike riders with kindness, so that our advice will be listened to.
People don't listen to advice from people who are insulting them, they are much more likely to do the opposite of what a dick demands.
The more "fat and lazy" people who ride bikes, electric or pedaled, the better for the planet.
The more citizens riding bicycles and electrics means more voting power next time you want to open a new trail or battle the SierraClub or whatever..
The more people riding electric, the more likelihood of E-Bike trails being opened...and you would be allowed to ride those new trails on your MTB.


When Christians tried to stop Contraception...they tried fear and hate and shame.
It didn't work....it made tons of unwanted babies...and back alley abortions...deaths....opposite of success.
The education and acceptance plan goes MUCH further....please try to see that.


I apologized for causing drama, I honestly didn't know this would blow up in my face.

Much love ya'll, happy riding, whatever ya like to ride.

My goals with this bike...to be clear...and stop assumptions....
1- It will get me deeper into the forest than my pedals would.
This is why I liked MTB so much...I can see more wilderness, and get to further places hikers can't, experiencing more of the world I live in, deepening my horizons.

A hiker would have to hike 2-3 days and camp out to cover the ground that I can in a day long ride.
I can find those mountain lakes that are only seen by a couple people a year.
I like tapping into that magic and mystery, alone with my thoughts and nature.

Now, with this toy, I can go MUCH further, and get even deeper into the forest than a bicycle can in a day.
If my battery runs out, I can solar charge, or just ride it like a bike.
I just want to experience the most my world has to offer.

2- I can "self-shuttle" downhill runs, without waiting for a crew.
Once a good track gets built, I'll be able to bomb the trails on a bike lighter than my 951.
Once at the bottom...I don't wait for a shuttle, I kick on the motor.
Then I drift and scream up the road and do it again...and again...and again...
An E-Bike DownhillPark would cost SOOOOOO much less to build, because the bikes ARE the lift...a shop that rented E-bikes at the bottom of such a track would be a very good business model....wink wink ...all ya need is a slope and some shovels.

3- I can build new trails faster.
One of our trail building techniques is to clear the brush for a line, then ride up and down it a dozen times on a Moto...this beds in the track and saves a ton of hours of digging.
Once the Moto "tills" the dirt, rakes shovels, and McLoeds finish the surface.
This E-bike will haul me and tools to the trail, up the trail, bed in the trail, and ride the trail and back home while having a blast."

 

[WoodlandHills]

I am on mtbr.com and they can get pretty vicious. I used to rebut, but I got tired of beating my head against the walls. Now I just troll.......

When I run into those sort of folks on the trail, I just tell them that I hike with my dogs in the hills everyday for exercise, but I eBike to access public lands. Since I live in California where Class 1 ebikes have been legally the same as bicycles there really has not been much in-person pushback and its mostly along the lines of "you're cheating!". It's online that you get the most vitriol!

I ride a Fatbike with a 4" tubeless tires at 8psi, my impact on trails is far less than any 2.5" tired MTB. If we are talking about trail damage the horses are the worst!

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Good thoughts, closed minds unfortunately are just that ... closed.

I have a friend who struggles with his weight, and rides his bicycle as one way to combat it, yet rides less because of poor weather and or soreness from riding, I KNOW if he would get over the stigma of "cheating" with an ebike, he would ride more and be in better shape, but because he's convinced it's "cheating" he won't give it a try.

He does like to ride mine occasionally though! :wink:

I like your idea of a E-MTB park with rental E-DH bikes!

I also find it ironic that the best way to build trail effectively for your crew involves using a Motorcycle!

That is just priceless. :lol:

I spent a little time working for the Forest Service as a volunteer rehabing old trails with hand tools, never fresh building, so I can appreciate what it takes to hike up there, and it's a great experience, but unfortunately there are some who cannot seem to "live and let live" and make room for everyone.

Reminds me of when I was in MONTANA of all places, asked a local Forest Service worker at the Rangers Station where the ORV parks/trails were nearby to use my Lifted 4x4 Subaru Brat on, and he looked at like I had two heads! "I can't imagine why anyone would want to drive off road in the forest ...."

Ended up having to find info and eventually found the ORV park on my own, sadly over the last 30 years, we seem to have more people working in the Forest Service CLOSING access of all kinds (more employees on the payroll) and less places to go and do things.

Some refer to the existence of roads of any kind as "ribbons of death" and I surveyed a few, sadly, most were being closed.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

I am on mtbr.com and they can get pretty vicious. I used to rebut, but I got tired of beating my head against the walls. Now I just troll.......

When I run into those sort of folks on the trail, I just tell them that I hike with my dogs in the hills everyday for exercise, but I eBike to access public lands. Since I live in California where Class 1 ebikes have been legally the same as bicycles there really has not been much in-person pushback and its mostly along the lines of "you're cheating!". It's online that you get the most vitriol!

I ride a Fatbike with a 4" tubeless tires at 8psi, my impact on trails is far less than any 2.5" tired MTB. If we are talking about trail damage the horses are the worst!

I don't doubt ya Woodlandhills-

The thing that gets me is the people who are usually the most vocal are the ones that use these resources the LEAST!

I think California has done a great thing with making that class of E-bike the same as any other bicycle to recognize that not every E-Bike is some crazy insane "light motorcycle" that will be used to destroy trails.

Locally, we have a really strong following for MTB's in the Portland, OR Area, I can remember being in High School when MTB's were still pretty new in the late 80's and all the trails that were restricted from MTB use but HORSES were ok?!

We as E-Bikers can do much to dispel the perceptions of some who have a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of a "motorized" bicycle be it electric or otherwise, and I am so glad I have found this forum where there are so many open minds and free thinkers!

Sure, lands and resources need to be used responsibly, and I am sure there are a few "bad apples" that got those trails initially closed by their actions, but these days MTB's are ok on many of the trails and areas where I live, and hopefully we can help a similar perception of E-Bikes to be made too!

Oh, and btw, I'm not trying to say high-powered E-Bikes aren't good!

Just as long as we all have places where we can use them responsibly, I hope to have a pretty high-powered E-Bike myself soon, but I don't plan on going 40 MPH on local bike paths around pedalers/peds anytime soon!

 

[Leebolectric]

hehe, true WoodlandHills, they are a vicious bunch, but this is the first time they pointed it at me.

I gotta admit...I left my original post vague to invite the hate.
I felt getting them worked up would be the best way to get them interested.

They don't listen, they just hate...there's a few good ones over there though.
http://forums.mtbr.com/passion/passion-e-bikes-because-power-fun-1000482.html

 

[Chalo]

I'm pretty ambivalent about the whole issue. I mean, off-roading is pretty much always about recreation and not transportation, so why not push pedals? If you're slow, so what? It's just playing, after all. There's no rule about how fast you have to play.

On the other hand, time and decay have us all in their death grip, and e-MTBs allow a lot of people to get out on the trails who would have difficulty doing it any other way.

It's clear to me that legal-ish e-bikes are, if anything, gentler on trails than pedal bikes, because of their smoother power delivery. Of course high power rock chucking e-bikes are motorcycles and should be limited to motorcycle rights of access.

But if speeds and capabilities are compatible with pedal MTBs, why should it matter whether e-bikes are on the trails? If we can peacefully share paths and bike lanes, then trails should be no exception.

 

[Sean9002]

Colliding with another rider (stationary or otherwise) hurts! A lot! When their bike weighs double or triple what it would normally, that's dangerous ground. :?

 

[Samd]

I just make the point that I get the same exercise. But I get triple the scenery.
Some people have slower neural kinetics and can't take in the extra information at electric speeds, so they are forced to stick with a pedal only bike...

All that wasted time between runs for pedalers. It sucks. I don't miss it.

 

[nutnspecial]

That's a great comment to use Sam . . . that'll piss'em off . . . but I like it lol.

. . .Wow lol leebolectric, you opened one hell of a can of worms there :lol: :lol: :lol:
Interesting to hear their thoughts and see the 'attackers' 'tudes, but I really assumed the issue is pretty well defined and decided? I'm not sure of the exact nature of 'offroad' being discussed but see the issue as this:

1) If discussing some sort of public land, normal federal pedalcycle law applies, with the exception of specific park rules. It is still a bicycle, and if you're not doing things to get singled out, there will be no reason for them to force you to prove using a 750w limit. And that's if you're using power at all.

2) If it is private 'club' lands and bicycles are allowed, any ebike you can operate as a bicycle it's still a bicycle. If there is some sort of rules in place excluding any electric power, just don't get caught using it.

This argument could be harder for a bike difficult to operate as only a bike, and that looks like a motorcycle. Your's definitely doesn't have that issue. Other than that, a respectful attitude while operating should be taken, and also when telling the haters to pound sand hehehe

edit// lol post 110, 116 starting to wipe the floor with them. Now comes the reasoning! See if they can prove you can't be on 'non motorized' (idk exactly what that is) trails lol. Nice Job

 

[craneplaneguy]

I'm going to use the old fart excuse for my ( inevitable?) clash with e bike haters, at 66 (and 1/2) I can get away with that. You young pups have to be more creative in how you justify your E help, or not! Great quote Samd, sums it up perfect. Being new to all this, I am finding it very interesting how both long time cyclists and non cyclists react when I tell them I have TWO E-bikes, both bought/built in the last month or so. That gets their attention....the few I have let ride either of my bike, instantly " got it".

 

[Chalo]

I just make the point that I get the same exercise. But I get triple the scenery.

That's the problem, if you're going three times as fast as other riders. They'd be well justified in wanting you out of there. It would be like drivers barreling down your neighborhood street at 120kph.

If, on the other hand, you're going the same speed as other riders, but three times faster than you would on a pedal bike, then that's OK.

 

[slofy]

Mtb riders often do but rarely mention that they ride on illegal trails, when I am riding on said trails, these "pedal" riders can't argue with me about being there on my ebike. There is a middle ground

 

[dogman dan]

Don't worry, as they get old, they'll go electric too. But yeah, if you are young and strong, you are cheating. :wink:

I have the ultimate excuse, as soon as I say, " I got west nile virus" Everybody around here understands. And, all that grey hair helps too. Honestly, before I got really sick, I did prefer riding the nice bike trails without help. But I also had a flyweight motorcycle type bike for riding seriously nasty roads, like power line or pipeline roads near impossible to pedal. They just take a straight line across wild hills, so the grades are brutal for pedaling them. Anything legal on those roads, so no cheat there.

You mentioned riding electric for the access, so I suspect you don't always ride the nice trails cut just for bikes. Old horse/ hiking trails are also very nasty to try to pedal em. Just a short 40% grade here and there! Fine for pack mules, but not for bikes. Good bike trails tend to ride different, some kind of easy way up them, then a nice blast down the steep way. Horse trails just go up and down to avoid cliffs, or find a ford to cross a stream. They suck to ride where I live.

 

[Eskimo]

E-bike hate is pretty pathetic phenomeon. You can not basically socialize with non-motor cyclists at all. There"s always at least that one whiner, who just wants to fight with you. It"s really sad. Usually this E-hate is most common among the Green Party voters, which i find paradoxical to the max. They tolerate basically everything, but E-bike makes them to moralize immediately. Leg power only! Yeah we support cycling fanatically, but with leg power only! Please...
True conservatives are always more liberal towards E-bikes, at least around here, which is funny. No preaching about the leg power.

 

[Leebolectric]

well...the world isn't all bad.
I took my bike down to my favorite local shop, LifeCycles, to grab a Dropper Post for my Intense.
They LOVED it, they pumped me for details and wanted to get one too.
They are more of a Downhill/Freeride shop, so they already cater to aggressive riding....so I think that's why they were more open.
On the other hand..."Pauls" shop instantly scoffed me...despite having shopped there for 5 years...lol

Yes, it's true, MTBrs do ride and build illegal trails...I have helped and enjoyed them too.
I and friends will likely build something specifically for E-bikes...we have lands and areas that we can use.
But for the most part...the big opportunity I see...
The WillametteNationalForest that I live in the middle of, is thousands of miles of lush old growth forest wilderness.
There are huge numbers of gravel and dirt roads, Miner trails from the settler days, and animal tracks.
My MTB let me explore all the trails, but my E-bikes will get me further into the depths of the forest.
Hoping I can see some cool sights that humans rarely reach.

A really cool thing about an E-Bike is that I can ride a flat rutted dirt road so fast it FEELS like a WorldCupDownhill track.
The idea of "free ride"...riding whatever you see, where there is no trail...finding the fun and making the lines work.
E-bikes are PERFECT for Freeride...get further and out, then blast down....wheeeee!

 

[WoodlandHills]

One response to the "you're cheating" argument is to tell them that you charge your battery during the week using a stationary bike with a generator while watching TV. That way you are still a Human Powered Vehicle! :wink: How will they know you are bullshitting?

 

[nutnspecial]

I would like to see an age average for them (site participants) vs ES. Alot of the discussion wasn't horrible, but the general tone seems to slip towards childishness that plagues youtube comments. If it's a generational thing we may be in even bigger trouble than I thought. Frown. In their credit, some of the other threads seemed much more reasonable imo. And they do let anybody on utube, maybe including a superspam AI

Anyway, really excited for op to find 'E'- such a huge amplification to normal biking and in such an awesome and beatiful section of the country. Enjoy it man, no doubt more will soon follow!

Ps- 'charged with stationary bike' :lol: I'm gonna use that

Edit/// does this remind you of utube comments in PG mode?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnzlbyTZsQY

 

[Chalo]

True conservatives are always more liberal towards E-bikes, at least around here, which is funny. No preaching about the leg power.

It's because they have no scruples of any kind.

 

[slofy]

My response to the cheating argument is "It's not a competition".

 

[amberwolf]

I have the ultimate excuse, as soon as I say, " I got west nile virus" Everybody around here understands. And, all that grey hair helps too.

Some people notice my cane in it's holder next to my left shoulder, while I'm riding; if they dont' then they do when I get off the bike or trike using it.

Some people still don't "get it"....

 

[slofy]

I have the ultimate excuse, as soon as I say, " I got west nile virus" Everybody around here understands. And, all that grey hair helps too.

Some people notice my cane in it's holder next to my left shoulder, while I'm riding; if they dont' then they do when I get off the bike or trike using it.

Some people still don't "get it"....

Did we cross paths a few weeks ago? In Windsor.

 

[amberwolf]

I don't know of a Windsor in Phoenix, AZ, anywhere near where I ride (the metrocenter area mostly).

I see your profile country says Australia, so unless you were here on a visit at the time, it's pretty unlikely.

Plus, I think anyone who'd seen it here on the forums (or in person) would *easily* recognize my SB Cruiser trike if you saw it on the road anywhere. :lol:



(although as of a few days ago, the cane holder is now on the right side, pending further modifications to the trike).

 

[veloman]

I tow my Mtb to the park with my ebike. You should see the stares I get. I'm an alien to everyone. I don't get any negative comments. Today some older riders wanted to ask me about it. My ebike has a homemade moto-like fairing on it, so it sticks out big time. I've not seen an e-mtbr on the trails yet. I'm sure it would be fun, but yeah, tons of haters.

 

[slofy]

I don't know of a Windsor in Phoenix, AZ, anywhere near where I ride (the metrocenter area mostly).

I see your profile country says Australia, so unless you were here on a visit at the time, it's pretty unlikely.

Plus, I think anyone who'd seen it here on the forums (or in person) would *easily* recognize my SB Cruiser trike if you saw it on the road anywhere. :lol:



(although as of a few days ago, the cane holder is now on the right side, pending further modifications to the trike).

Oops I just read the name, my bad.

 

[Punx0r]

I'm pretty ambivalent about the whole issue. I mean, off-roading is pretty much always about recreation and not transportation, so why not push pedals? If you're slow, so what? It's just playing, after all. There's no rule about how fast you have to play.

I completely agree with the sentiment but think there I room for e-assist in places. I don't do much proper trail riding, but did go to a trail centre recently. It was great, but it was also a lot of uphill slog. I'm not in bad shape, but unfit and I just could hack it after a while, despite being in the granny gear and even resorting to walking and pushing the bike up some sections. By the top and the start the decents I couldn't stand on the pedals nor control the bike properly, which ruined what should have been the fun part. 200W (maybe even 100W) of e-assist would have made all the difference. I respect the guys who are fit enough to make it to the end before becoming exhausted, but I'm a casual rider.