pedal assist way too fast!!!!

[neutro]

Throttle is good, it gives you the assist you desire.

PAS is mostly bad. Only torque measuring pas is OK and then only OK, not good.

Poorly implemented pas is high risk and dangerous.

Throttle is not high risk and dangerous, it works like your car, truck, suv, motorcycle, scooter, etc.

What's your opinion on the more refined torque sensing options available now, Mike? For example the LMX64, specialized levo maybe, the TSDZ2 kit?

Am looking to do a higher power torque assist build, either hubmotor or mid drive.

I made a post here if you have time to make a suggestion.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=107705&sid=5712e155c33590a31ccbc4afc083ae27

 

[MadRhino]

...opinion on the more refined torque sensing options available now,

Am looking to do a higher power torque assist build, either hubmotor or mid drive.

Can’t compare. Lightweight bikes with BB drives are made to retain the bicycle feel, and many are doing it successfully with very good software. Bosh or Shimano for an example, had invested a lot to improve PAS softwares and building lightweight integrated systems. Yet the bikes that are built around those systems are expansive.

What you plan to build is very different and will never have this natural bicycle feel, because it will be heavy and no cheap DIY solutions will offer the software quality to come even close.

 

[Smurf2]

I got all answers in that thread! Thanks!
I stil not adding a 12magnets PAS on my e-bike yet, but I test it and wounder why on minimall or max rorate crank motor go full speed!

That is good on place where no trafic, but not on the signal lights. Ex you can be in higher pas gear, and on red light you accidently move pedal a little, motor will start full speed uo to 40kmh, if I don't have ebrake.

If I understand good for now, when rotate pedal for 1 magnet(1 pulse), the motor will start full power in speed which is set like PASS LEVEL SPPEED. So, if you in level 5, motor will go 42kmh(my max speed), wheter rotate slow pedal or fast?

At first I really thought that speed of pedaling have to do with speed of pas and I am disapointed that is not true.

So, when I will install PAS, I will try:
-using it on street with no high trafic
-set 9 PAS levels insteed 5, which will give me more choice for speed
-unplugged jack when go in high traffic

 

[amberwolf]

If I understand good for now, when rotate pedal for 1 magnet(1 pulse), the motor will start full power in speed which is set like PASS LEVEL SPPEED. So, if you in level 5, motor will go 42kmh(my max speed), wheter rotate slow pedal or fast?

That's how almost all PAS systems work, unfortunately.

At first I really thought that speed of pedaling have to do with speed of pas and I am disapointed that is not true.

You can make systems that do this, using the Cycle Analyst v3.x to drive a throttle-based (non-PAS) controller; it's what I do on the SB Cruiser trike. So I vary my pedal cadence to vary the speed of the trike.

It needs a non-PAS controller only if the controller otherwise requires you to be pedalling for it to operate, but that's how many of those work. Using a "dumb" throttle-only (no pas, no display) controller simplifies setting things up and changing settings, because the controller itself simply makes all of it's capability available all the time, and the CA does any limiting you want to happen.

The disadvantage is the CA is not cheap, but you can use a very cheap dumb controller to make up for some of that.


Over the years there have been some whole bike systems and kits advertised with this ability built into the controller, but I don't know if any are presently available.

 

[Diggs]

At first I really thought that speed of pedaling have to do with speed of pas and I am disapointed that is not true.

As amberwolf mentioned some systems do that. The Bafang BB systems are one of them. You can program both the max speed and how much assist you want for each PAS level. I'm a country cruiser. I program so that when I hit my favorite speed/cadence (15 mph on PAS 3) the assist tapers off. In other words, as I hit 14.5 mph the assist begins to taper off. By the time I hit 15 mph, the assist is down to ~100 watts. By the time I hit 15.2 mph there is no assist. It's perfect for my style of riding. It brings assist on when I climb a hill and turns it off when I go down a hill. I program the other PAS levels for different speeds/cadence and assist (watts) levels. You can also program how fast you want the assist to come on and off when pedaling. I'm not a fan of torque sensing.

I don't understand the stoplight problem. None of my ebikes experience this both the Bafang mid-drives or the hub drives. Pedaling backwards on the these drives does nothing. Modern PAS sensors know which direction you are pedaling. They are clearly marked with direction of rotation for installation.

 

[AHicks]

Here's my take. PAS sensors supply pulses to the controller when the crank is turning. The controller could care less how fast those pulses occur. It MAY care about how many of those pulses it gets prior to turning the power on. Most are set up to count at least 2 but may be set up for more. This to prevent false starts climbing on or off the bike. They can't happen if the controller needs 2 or more pulses prior to turning the power on.

There's a SPEED SENSOR that tells the controller how fast the bike is moving. It may be built into the drive unit, or it could be a simple magnet fastened to a spoke. When it comes to how fast, the controller is looking at the speed sensor, NOT the PAS sensor.

From there, it's about the controller programming, and that's all over the ball park. MANY of the cheaper models seen used with the hub drives generate a TON of complaints for those expecting decent control over their speeds, especially speeds under about 10mph, even when in PAS 1. Some are adjustable, but most are not. The adjustable ones I'm familiar with are the aftermarket KT controllers, the ones used in the Bafang BBSXX series mid drives, the earlier Bafang Ultra, I've read about, but haven't messed with the Ride One Up controllers that are supposed to be adjustable, and the Sonders bikes, same story.

 

[Smurf2]

As amberwolf mentioned some systems do that. The Bafang BB systems are one of them. You can program both the max speed and how much assist you want for each PAS level.

Thanks guys. Today I installed my PAS.
Diggs, I have Bafang, rear hub kit, but no idea how to I connect to deep programming of controller. Only usb jack I have on Battery, which is for charging.
I think I saw that must buy some device which plugged in directly in LCD display? In my case 800S.

 

[Diggs]

Thanks guys. Today I installed my PAS.
Diggs, I have Bafang, rear hub kit, but no idea how to I connect to deep programming of controller. Only usb jack I have on Battery, which is for charging.
I think I saw that must buy some device which plugged in directly in LCD display? In my case 800S.

I don't know if the Bafang hub drives are programmable? I didn't think so but someone else can answer that. I'm referring to the BBS02 and the BBHSD. A USB cable is sold that allows a PC to plug into the display plug and make changes to the controller settings and programming. In fact, the settings are just a text file that can be saved, changed and tweaked, and re-uploaded (or can be changed live on the controller). I have 4-5 files I've accumulated as I've refined the settings I like to use for my style of riding.

 

[E-HP]

Thanks guys. Today I installed my PAS.
Diggs, I have Bafang, rear hub kit, but no idea how to I connect to deep programming of controller. Only usb jack I have on Battery, which is for charging.
I think I saw that must buy some device which plugged in directly in LCD display? In my case 800S.

There isn't one, and if there was, you still wouldn't be able to change the control mode of the controller. A controller can be designed to have a speed based control mode, or power/current/torque based control modes. Cheaper controllers are mostly speed based, some mid range controller will use a torque (simulation) or power based mode; and some will be selectable (e.g. Kelly).

Speed based will provide as much power the controller can output, to achieve a certain speed (based on throttle position, or PAS level) as fast as it can. So it that position is represents 15 mph, the controller will give full power until it hits 15 mph. So jerky throttle and/or PAS.

Torque/power based will provide a certain level of power based on the throttle or PAS setting. The speed could be higher or lower depending on flat ground, going up hill, or down, with that level of power. It feels more like the accelerator on your car using throttle, and less jerky with PAS.

A cycle analyst allows you to use torque/power based throttle and PAS even with a speed based controller, since it has a current and voltage feedback loop, so it can emulate torque/power/current based control, so that's one way to get those control modes from a cheap controller. Otherwise, you're stuck with what you got.

 

[Smurf2]

Thanks guys.
I looked this video
https://youtu.be/YpV_h9twtKk
It is for mid drive, and you can set all 9 levels of PAS how you wish, also number of magnets/pulses when turn a pedal. So, that not possible on my rear hub controller?
What motor have to do with? Isn't it more important controller then motor? (For read data).

EDIT: I apologize, after first PAS test today, when turn pedals throttle not go full power! It seems that PAS sensor needs like 4 blinkings (magnets) for start, but if you then stop pedal, motor will just begin run to cca few seconds to 11km/h, then stop (in High Level). It will no go full power to end, that is good.

 

[portals]

When I was thinking about building an ebike I thought I would use the thumb throttle mostly and maybe not even bother with the PAS sensor. I've got 1500W rear hub an KT-LCD8H colour display (kit was £300) with 52V 17.5Ah Samsung battery (£500)

However I put the PAS sensor on anyway and have to say I'm pretty impressed, P1 is good for busy pavements (slow), P2/P3 for moseying about and P4/P5 on busy roads for the power in case I need to escape anything.

It also has a walk function if you hold down the controller down button for cpl secs, as long as you keep it pressed down bike crawls, quite useful!

Also make sure and install at least one ebrake, when at lights I keep both brakes on anyway so motor is disabled and I cannot shoot away if I've left it on P5 PAS and turn pedals.

I have to say P5 assist takes of like a rocket and I prefer using PAS now rather than the thumb throttle, tbh I only use throttle really for taking off or a quick burst of speed where I can't use higher PAS as its too fast. I keep the bike in a mid gear.

What is puzzling me however is manual refers to a 'cruise' functionality, I think I've turned it on via C7 (Cruise) however I cannot get it to cruise at same speed, i'd really like to get this working, anyone any ideas?

 

[E-HP]

What is puzzling me however is manual refers to a 'cruise' functionality, I think I've turned it on via C7 (Cruise) however I cannot get it to cruise at same speed, i'd really like to get this working, anyone any ideas?

Did you press the down arrow button for 3 seconds to engage cruise control and it didn't work?

The KT controllers use "torque simulation" for PAS, so power based, and works great compared to the speed based PAS

 

[portals]

What is puzzling me however is manual refers to a 'cruise' functionality, I think I've turned it on via C7 (Cruise) however I cannot get it to cruise at same speed, i'd really like to get this working, anyone any ideas?

Did you press the down arrow button for 3 seconds to engage cruise control and it didn't work?

The KT controllers use "torque simulation" for PAS, so power based, and works great compared to the speed based PAS

Yes, I pushed down the down arrow button for 3 secs but it goes in to 'walking' mode at 4mph and does not cruise :-(

Maybe there is another parameter that needs changed, tbh not found very much online that was helpful for these displays re getting cruise to work - does anyone here have cruise working correctly is there a minimum speed you need to reach or somehow turn off walking mode so the long hold triggers cruise?

Agree the 'torque simulation' PAS works very well :thumb: :thumb:

I haven't actually thought too much or done any reading on what controls what, I assumed the actual metal controller unit that battery goes in to controls the PAS hub speed (it does in the end but it's not in control, the display is and feeds back to tell motor what to crank out).

Learn something every day with this bike....

 

[E-HP]

Yes, I pushed down the down arrow button for 3 secs but it goes in to 'walking' mode at 4mph and does not cruise :-(

Maybe there is another parameter that needs changed, tbh not found very much online that was helpful for these displays re getting cruise to work - does anyone here have cruise working correctly is there a minimum speed you need to reach or somehow turn off walking mode so the long hold triggers cruise?

I used the cruise function when I had my KT controller hooked up. The 3 second thing was a pain. I like just a single button press like my current controller uses, but the actual function of the KT was fine on flat ground. The Cycle Analyst has auto cruise, which I really hate, even though I don't ride around at full throttle much.

So let me know if this is what's happening:

You go to settings and set C7=1, then exit.
You start riding at the speed you want to cruise at (but above 7km/H or 4.3mph), using either PAS or throttle.
While maintaining that speed, you press and hold the down arrow for 3 seconds.

A. Instead of "C" appearing on the display, you get a little walking man, and the bike slows down to 4mph when you stop pedaling/throttling.

B. Alternatively, if it worked right, the "C" appears and you stop pedaling or applying throttle, and the bike maintains speed (on flat ground for the KT).

Holding the down arrow serves two functions (Power Push or Cruise), depending on whether the controller/display thinks the bike is going over or under 4.3 mph.

So is it A or something else?

 

[portals]

Yes, I pushed down the down arrow button for 3 secs but it goes in to 'walking' mode at 4mph and does not cruise :-(

Maybe there is another parameter that needs changed, tbh not found very much online that was helpful for these displays re getting cruise to work - does anyone here have cruise working correctly is there a minimum speed you need to reach or somehow turn off walking mode so the long hold triggers cruise?

I used the cruise function when I had my KT controller hooked up. The 3 second thing was a pain. I like just a single button press like my current controller uses, but the actual function of the KT was fine on flat ground. The Cycle Analyst has auto cruise, which I really hate, even though I don't ride around at full throttle much.

So let me know if this is what's happening:

You go to settings and set C7=1, then exit.
You start riding at the speed you want to cruise at (but above 7km/H or 4.3mph), using either PAS or throttle.
While maintaining that speed, you press and hold the down arrow for 3 seconds.

A. Instead of "C" appearing on the display, you get a little walking man, and the bike slows down to 4mph when you stop pedaling/throttling.

B. Alternatively, if it worked right, the "C" appears and you stop pedaling or applying throttle, and the bike maintains speed (on flat ground for the KT).

Holding the down arrow serves two functions (Power Push or Cruise), depending on whether the controller/display thinks the bike is going over or under 4.3 mph.

So is it A or something else?

I set C7 to 1 the other day, when I long hold down button as far as I remember I still got the walking man and no cruise, it's could be I was still pedalling(that shouldn't matter, or does it?), but I did try this many many times and still walking man. I'll need to test again to be 100% sure as I don't use thumb throttle much so maybe I did rotate pedals enough for it to not cruise, but not convinced I did this every time as pressing the button takes a little care and attention and I tend not to pedal but to be stable when playing with display as I'm still pretty new to ebiking and the previous spinout has taught me they are dangerous if not respected.

Have you seen this issue before when you get walking man rather then than the expected Cruise 'C'?

Thanks!

 

[E-HP]

I set C7 to 1 the other day, when I long hold down button as far as I remember I still got the walking man and no cruise, it's could be I was still pedalling(that shouldn't matter, or does it?), but I did try this many many times and still walking man. I'll need to test again to be 100% sure as I don't use thumb throttle much so maybe I did rotate pedals enough for it to not cruise, but not convinced I did this every time as pressing the button takes a little care and attention and I tend not to pedal but to be stable when playing with display as I'm still pretty new to ebiking and the previous spinout has taught me they are dangerous if not respected.

Have you seen this issue before when you get walking man rather then than the expected Cruise 'C'?

Thanks!

Try it with your thumb throttle. The controller has to be providing assist while you are holding down the button, so either keep pedaling or throttling until the C shows up, then you stop pedaling/throttling. Coasting while holding down the button definitely won't work. Use throttle to make sure it works first.

 

[portals]

I set C7 to 1 the other day, when I long hold down button as far as I remember I still got the walking man and no cruise, it's could be I was still pedalling(that shouldn't matter, or does it?), but I did try this many many times and still walking man. I'll need to test again to be 100% sure as I don't use thumb throttle much so maybe I did rotate pedals enough for it to not cruise, but not convinced I did this every time as pressing the button takes a little care and attention and I tend not to pedal but to be stable when playing with display as I'm still pretty new to ebiking and the previous spinout has taught me they are dangerous if not respected.

Have you seen this issue before when you get walking man rather then than the expected Cruise 'C'?

Thanks!

Try it with your thumb throttle. The controller has to be providing assist while you are holding down the button, so either keep pedaling or throttling until the C shows up, then you stop pedaling/throttling. Coasting while holding down the button definitely won't work. Use throttle to make sure it works first.

That's interesting that Cruise only kicks in if you are currently assisting with PAS or throttle. I will give that a go tomorrow, it's possible I'm not pedalling/using throttle but staring at button like a mad man trying to hold button down whilst looking at screen and trying not to crash

 

[E-HP]

That's interesting that Cruise only kicks in if you are currently assisting with PAS or throttle. I will give that a go tomorrow, it's possible I'm not pedalling/using throttle but staring at button like a mad man trying to hold button down whilst not crashing

Just like your car.

 

[portals]

That's interesting that Cruise only kicks in if you are currently assisting with PAS or throttle. I will give that a go tomorrow, it's possible I'm not pedalling/using throttle but staring at button like a mad man trying to hold button down whilst not crashing

Just like your car.

Never really thought too much about that before, been driving for 35+ yrs and yes you're always on the gas when driving when you want to cruise.

I've personally given up on owning a car that even has cruise control on it now, where I live you'll struggle to find a neighbour who's car hasn't been damaged multiple times because we live in a forked dead end fire ramp where you cannot move for parked cars so unless you're a fire engine to get over the fire bumps then you have to do a tight 3/5/7-point-turn. It's a lovely area, but the parking is insane.

Newbie moved in a few weeks ago to street - has a a nice new orange mini jeep type thing (don't know what), already he has taken to writing of his dissatisfaction with a Tipex pen on the windows to list of damage racked up so far....8 bumper scrapes, 2 damaged alloys along with the nsr door scratch in the pic is pretty impressive!

This was also part of drive for ebike, I'd love to get rid of the car full stop, and just not have a car (currently have a Jetta and it does have cruise control but I bought it with 200K+ miles for £850 last Oct after my £950 Citroen Zara blew up on the Clydeside Expressway after timing belt snapped - however, winter is coming....

 

[portals]

I did some testing this evening re Cruise Control, what I have learnt is that is that with my particular setup in order to get Cruise Control working you must meet certain conditions.

What I observed was:

1. you must pedal with a minimum setting of PAS 1 or Cruise will not kick in

2. Cruise will not work if you only use the thumb throttle, you must pedal and activate PAS as per (1) above

3. Cruise will not kick in unless I'm at 10mph or above, I must be PAS accelerating at 10+mph and hold down down button for 3 secs to Cruise (3 secs is a little annoying as mentioned above but can live it it at moment).

4. I've only fitted one ebrake so far on the LHS lever for back brake, not got around to fitting the other one yet. Having said that I probably won't be installing the second ebrake now as it can make Cruise more fun and intuitive from limited testing I've done tonight.

So you Cruise leisurely at say 15mph and have engaged Cruise, if you touch ebrake you lose Cruise as per a car braking, however you can use RHS brake to control the actual cruise speed to make manoeuvrability better, maybe akin to driving your car on motorway purely by cruise control, we've all done it . If you only do this now and again I cannot see it hurting the motor.

Anyway, appreciate the feedback from you guys, hopefully this might help someone else out

 

[docw009]

With the proper C-settings, and maybe a jumper setting on a KT controller, cruise on my wife's bike kicks in if the throttle is held steady for a about 20 seconds.

 

[AHicks]

With the proper C-settings, and maybe a jumper setting on a KT controller, cruise on my wife's bike kicks in if the throttle is held steady for a about 20 seconds.

I've done several KT conversions, and have just 1 that will do that as well. It happens to be the one powering a 1000w MAC 12t, so the biggest geared hub power I own. If you are negotiating an area that requires a lot of power for a few seconds, and let go of the throttle only to find out you've engaged the cruise control, that can be a bit concerning if you aren't used to it! I know all you have to do is tap a brake to kill the cruise, but if that solution isn't right at the top of your mind....

As far as engaging the rest of them, I figure it takes a minimum of 7 mph, and the down arrow for a few seconds. Not something I use very often though.

 

[portals]

The KT controllers use "torque simulation" for PAS, so power based, and works great compared to the speed based PAS

Agree the 'torque simulation' PAS works very well :thumb: :thumb:

Thinking about this, my PAS sensor is cadence not torque, as said I like it, however when you say "torque simulation", do you mean that there is something else going on in the software rather than just cadence?

 

[E-HP]

The KT controllers use "torque simulation" for PAS, so power based, and works great compared to the speed based PAS

Agree the 'torque simulation' PAS works very well :thumb: :thumb:

Thinking about this, my PAS sensor is cadence not torque, as said I like it, however when you say "torque simulation", do you mean that there is something else going on in the software rather than just cadence?

Yes and no. Controllers may be designed with a speed control scheme or a torque control scheme, so depending on your throttle position, or PAS level, the controller will provide power to the motor differently.

For speed control, twisting the throttle to a certain position, it will provide the motor full power, until it reaches the speed for that position, then cruise at that speed; with PAS, it will race up, under full power, to the speed of that PAS level.

For torque control, when you twist the throttle, it provides current/power proportional to that throttle position, and provides that level of current/power until it the load equals that power (and the resulting speed). Torque based will feel more like your car, so if you get to a hill, you might press the gas pedal a little more, to maintain your speed; on your bike, you would either twist the throttle a bit more, or click up another PAS level to maintain that speed.

A lot of cheap controllers are speed based, and I hear people complaining on the forum about them when using PAS (feels hard to control or too abrupt, or even dangerous). For KT controllers, they coined the name "torque simulation" for torque based control. The PAS feels more natural, however, not to be confused with a torque sensing PAS sensor, which provides more or less power depending on pedal pressure (which some people like, if they like to pedal, and pedal all the time). KT PAS is still cadence based.

Note that for either scheme, the rpm that you pedal at doesn't affect anything, it just engages assist when the cranks are spun at any speed. However, there are devices, like the Cycle Analyst, that take that cadence signal, and can either ramp up or ramp down power based on how fast you are pedaling, which is what I use now. I still miss some aspects of the KT PAS though, because it's simple, but get's the job done.

 

[amberwolf]

KT PAS is still cadence based.

Not that it matters as far as what controller companies will call it, but if I understand the KT (non OSFW) operation correctly, it might be better termed "pedal detection based" (like virtually all "cadence" PAS controllers), since they don't actually use the cadence to control anything, they simply detect that you are pedalling and engage the system at the assist level you've chosen (in whatever method that particular system works).


If it were truly cadence-based, the controller would use the speed of pedalling (which is what cadence means, in bicycle context) to actually control the amount of assist, be that amount of power or torque, or the speed of the motor, etc. (not just turning the assist on or off)



The latter is how I use the Cycle Analyst to control the SB Cruiser trike, and it's how I wish the controllers themselves worked (but I haven't run into one yet personally, and a good ong search some time back for a discussion related to this only found one company claiming their bikes worked this way).