Phaserunner cutting out

[llile]

Running a Phaserunner V6, GMAC 8T and Cycle Analyst V3. These were received as a kit from Grin. Several problems are observed:

1. Cut out on accelerate: When I accelerate from a dead start, often the motor will ramp up for a bit then cut out (does not respond to throttle). If I don't accelerate hard (go easy on the throttle), it doesn't do this. Letting off the throttle, waiting a bit, it comes back and everything works again. It seems like if I keep the power under 1000 watts it doesn't cut out on acceleration. There are no settings in the Cycle Analyst or the Phaserunner Suite that should limit anything to 1000 watts.

2. Cut out on e-brake: Finally got and ebrake and regen working after operating the bike for about 20 miles (with no regen, no ebrake) I was able to stop the bike well on gravel, even skidding the tire a bit. When I tried going down a large hill with regen braking, the motor and throttle suddenly became unresponsive. Eventually (after walking home) I tried disconnecting the battery and everything was again responsive.

3. Cut out on Phaserunner Suite test: Connected to Phaserunner suite software. Read the original Phaserunner parameters and saved the original parameters in a file. Changed the Max Regen Voltage Start-End to 42.5 and 42 V to match my battery. Otherwise stock programming as received from Grin and (presumably) tuned to a GMAC motor. Was able to run the speed up and down a few times, then the system started cutting out on acceleration. When I operate the throttle, The motor will run for a second or two, then it quits running and I get a "1-5" Controller Over Temperature error on the Phaserunner LED [EDIT] I was reading this incorrectly, it is a 5-1 warning "Communication timeout", and also a "Warning: Communication TImeout" error on Phaserunner Suite.

[EDIT] Currently Issue #3 is preventing the bike from operating at all - it will run for maybe 5 seconds then quit. First two issues were observed during about 20 miles of riding, then the third issue appeared and the bike is not usable.

I have contacted Grin, and pushing them for a return authorization.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Sounds like a battery issue. Could be BMS limit, or just bad cells. If that isn't the case it could also be the amp or watt gain settings on the CA being too aggressive also.

 

[amberwolf]

Is it a 1-5 LED code, or 5-1? 5-1 is a comm timeout, which matches the PRS error.

Also, all the errors should be listed in the dev screen tab "log" of everything that's been sent/received during that session, as well as in the Faults and Warnings window of the basic tab. If you get an overtemp error on the LED it should also show up in the PRS there.


As for the cutouts: are there any LED blink codes when these happen during aride? Note that you can have multiple codes, and they will blink one after the other, until they've all blinked, then restart with the first one again, until the PR is power cycled, AFAICR.

When the cutouts happen, are there any capitalized limit flags on the CA's diag screen at that moment?

Does the LED remain on after the cutout, (blinking or steady), and the rest of the system remain powered? (In case it's a battery cutout at the BMS, during either regen or acceleration)

If it does stay powered, does it have an undervoltage LED code?

What's the battery's current capability for charge and discharge? (and is it a common port BMS, or dual port)

What is the PR setup for max current for both regen and otherwise?

 

[llile]

Is it a 1-5 LED code, or 5-1? 5-1 is a comm timeout, which matches the PRS error.

You are right I was reading this backwards. It does now appear to the the 5-1 code, Communication timeout.This should be a warning code, not a fault code, so it does not make sense that the controller stops working (no response to throttle) when this occurs. Always occurs within 5 seconds of accelerating the motor.

I'm pretty much convinced this is simply a failed Phaserunner unit, and I'm contacting GRIN for a return.. Problem #3 occurs even if the motor is disconnected, the Phaserunner shows a Communication TImeout warning after accelerating the throttle, even without a motor. If a FET was shorted, it might hit the power bus in the Phaserunner and cause such a warning, I guess.

Tried several different known good batteries, and lots more things below, but I'm thinking there isn't much point in more troubleshooting, the steps below are convincing me the unit is simply bad.

Also, all the errors should be listed in the dev screen tab "log" of everything that's been sent/received during that session, as well as in the Faults and Warnings window of the basic tab. If you get an overtemp error on the LED it should also show up in the PRS there.

It shows there are 0 faults and 1 warning, consistent with the "Communication timeout" warning.

As for the cutouts: are there any LED blink codes when these happen during aride? Note that you can have multiple codes, and they will blink one after the other, until they've all blinked, then restart with the first one again, until the PR is power cycled, AFAICR.

I can't duplicate #1 (cutout on accelerate) and #2 (cut out on ebrake), since the bike won't move more than three feet without #3 cut out on accelerate throttle. I did not observe the blink codes on the first times I observed these problems, so the only issue that can be addressed right now is #3. Especially since it's a showstopper!

When the cutouts happen, are there any capitalized limit flags on the CA's diag screen at that moment?

On the diagnostic screen, awsvt S goes capital for speed limit. It is capitalized the whole time the throttle is activated until the unit cuts out and quits working. This isn't making much sense as the speed limit set in the Cycle Analyst setup is 199 MPH.

Does the LED remain on after the cutout, (blinking or steady), and the rest of the system remain powered? (In case it's a battery cutout at the BMS, during either regen or acceleration)

Yes, everything is powered after the cutout. The LED on the Phaserunner continues to blink 5-1 and the Cycle Analyst continues to show it is powered.

If it does stay powered, does it have an undervoltage LED code?

It stays powered. I don't see an undervoltage LED code on the Phaserunner. I don't see any change in the battery voltage when I graph it on the Phaserunner Suite dashboard.

What's the battery's current capability for charge and discharge? (and is it a common port BMS, or dual port)

What is the PR setup for max current for both regen and otherwise?

Battery current capability - it's a 12P 21700 battery that has an 80 amp BMS. It has been in use for well over a year on other bikes and on an inverter that it runs with no battery issues.

Same behavior with a different battery of the same construction. Both these batteries, I consider to be "known good" components they have been in service for a long time. The batteries are dual port with a charge port and a power port. They have worked OK with another bike that has regen capability.

Same behavior with a third battery, a 10S LiFEPo4 battery with a 30 amp BMS.


Phaserunner setup:
Max Phase Current 60A
Max regen phase current 60A
Max battery current 30A
Max regen battery current 20A.

Experimentally I tried setting the maximum power to 500 watts, max phase current to 30 amps and max battery current to 7.5 amps. Same result, everything quits within about 5 seconds of accelerating the throttle. I'm pretty much convinced this is simply a failed Phaserunner unit, and I'm contacting GRIN for a return.

 

[llile]

Sounds like a battery issue. Could be BMS limit, or just bad cells. If that isn't the case it could also be the amp or watt gain settings on the CA being too aggressive also.

I'm having the same issue #3 when I plug in two other different batteries. All the batteries have been working successfully on other bikes. I'm pretty sure the battery isn't the problem - Even using the throttle very gently, the motor stops within about 5 seconds. I'm not seeing any indication of low voltage from the battery in the Phaserunner suite or on the Cyce Analyst display.

 

[llile]

Thanks, Amberwolf, I've learned a ton about the nuts and bolts of using this rather complicated little device, just from this one post! The Phaserunner is somewhat intimidating, even for a geek like me. Looks to me like this is simply a failed unit.

 

[amberwolf]

On the diagnostic screen, awsvt S goes capital for speed limit. It is capitalized the whole time the throttle is activated until the unit cuts out and quits working. This isn't making much sense as the speed limit set in the Cycle Analyst setup is 199 MPH.

If you hit the speed limit, the CA then either turns throttle output off, or limits it to whatever voltage your settings restrict it to. It's just doing what it is supposed to...based on the inputs it gets.

That then changes what the controller is doing. If it is actually ceasing throttle output, then that will stop the controller output completely.


If the CA is getting it's speed signal from the PR, then probably it's getting a motor hall signal from the PR instead of a wheel sensor signal, and the number of poles in the CA is insufficient to read this signal correctly.

There is an apparent issue with the PR where since it automatically switches to the hall input for speed sensing if it doesn't detect a speed signal on the wheel sensor fast enough, it then supplies this wrong signal to the CA, and so the CA will do speed limiting just as it should...except with the wrong speed signal (too many pulses) it is limiting when the system doens't need it.


If you feed the wheel speed sensor directly to the CA it would correct this issue. (and set the controller to zero poles for wheel speed sensor so it just ignores it). If the cabling in the system doens't have a good way to change this wiring path without cutting into the cables, you could use an extension cable (that you'd ahve to cut into) for the CA's main cable itself, and splice in an external wheelspeed sensor, rather than cut into the motor-to-controller cable.

Or open the CA and wire in an external sensor there. (not my first choice)

According to another recent thread with this issue, Grin's solution for this is to add more magnets to your speed sensor; in your case that's inside the GMAC, and you shouldn't have to take your motor apart to fix a motor software issue.


Because there does not appear to be a complete list of all the advanced parameters available within the Dev Screen tab***, I don't know if any of these settings would prevent the PR from switching from the wheelspeed sensor input to the motor position hall. If there is such a setting, knowing what that is and what value to enter would fix this problem.


***you'd have to scroll in the single-line "address" bar one line at a time, starting from address zero to whatever the max is (255?) and note each one down to make a list of parameters...but there's no list of acceptable values for them or what those values correspond to, so it's still too much work with too much risk (what happens if an out of range value is entered? can any values of any parameters damage things? etc), to do this experimentally.

 

[amberwolf]

Thanks, Amberwolf, I've learned a ton about the nuts and bolts of using this rather complicated little device, just from this one post! The Phaserunner is somewhat intimidating, even for a geek like me. Looks to me like this is simply a failed unit.

It could be. The comm error could be a problem with the USB-serial cable itself, or even the USB port on the system reading it...but it could be the jack on the PR. IIRC there are wires in the cable (WP8?) for the comms, so an external connector could be installed for that if needed.

The other issue could be the PR shutting down internally (which would also cause a comm error), or it could be the speed sensor thing noted in my other post.


I'm still learning about the PR (I now have the v6 on the right side of the trike, and the v1 on the left, each running a slightly different version of the Ultramotor off an A2B). In case you run into any of the issues I have, you can see my experiences with the GMAC on the PRv6 in the more recent pages of the SB Cruiser thread

The SB Cruiser : Amberwolf's 2WD Heavy Cargo Trike & Dog Carrier

This thing replaces Delta Tipper...er, Tripper v1.0, whcih was cannibalized to build it. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22720 It's mostly Dogman's fault ;) ...er, inspiration, as he suggested it as a joint build for his trip out here this year. Tiny and Yogi discuss...

endless-sphere.com

and a thread about the UM/PR pairings here

Phaserunner startup issues (v6 and v1, each running an Ultramotor)

So...this is probably going to be complicated, and requires some explanation of the setup, both as it is now where it doesn't work right, and as it was before when it did work fine. So...apologies for the length. I'm very tired after working on this for the last 12+ hours, so I'll probably...

endless-sphere.com