Pikes Peak, Electric Mountain Climbers...

[liveforphysics]

Craig- You did a fantastic job. You're solidly helping the electric revolution. You showed a bunch of non-ebike riders that ebikes are faster than any human powered bike alone, and that ebikes don't have to be lame dull things for frompy old men with bad knees.

It's not easy to put together a full crew of machines and riders, get them all to the event, and then manage to be failure-free for 7 riders all the way to the top. That shows a lot of good planning, good design, good logistics, and outstanding logistics and dedication to the sport.

You're doing a damn fine job, and I commend your success!

 

[CraigT]

Thank you!

Much appreciated.

Craig Taber

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

What an event! This sounds like a really good test of both rider and machine on a grueling hill climb!

I know when I have been knocked off the race track (road racing motorcycles) I have had let a few choice words out mainly because of the fear of death it puts into ya, and just blowing off steam, and that accident like many in a race, is just something that happens.

I didn't see it as much of a accusation as just the normal ribbing between competitors, and I commend you on taking the time to try and make things right Craig T.

Racing is all about finding every advantage, and if the rules aren't well defined, I too would bring what ever I thought I could get away with, and it's just poor planning on anyone else's part if they don't bring a competitive bike. :wink:

I think it would be wonderful to see this turn into a more defined and classed race for E-Bikes with different power classes (maybe something like DOT, Cargo haulers, Ultralights & Open E-Bike), and I too commend Optibike for bringing some serious competition onto the field and besting their previous time by nearly half! 8) 8)

Say what you will about the price and product, but 38 MPH is nothing to sneeze at.

I know this isn't as "official" as some would like for a true "race" but it's this and the spooky tooth death race for national events I have seen so far, and this is still just such a new sport, I say the more the better!

I wish that more companies would sponsor riders and give them some competition, not that they couldn't, but so far, Optibike is the one showing up in force, how about the rest of the companies!? :lol:

 

[sk8norcal]

some info here about the 1100R

http://groups.google.com/group/optibike-owners-group/browse_thread/thread/b803cdd5a1ec1551/91e3131dad92ea95

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

oh, is that why you called them punks?
yeah, have to disagree since federal regs don't apply off-road you know that.
reading it originally i thought it was in response to them targeting you for termination.
that i agree with & was thinking more like lo-life punks & a whole lot worse.
i wasn't even there & just reading how they sliced you off at the knees made me livid.

make no mistake, craiggerz & co. play hardball & play for keeps.
this isn't merely light-hearted fun & games & simply about bragging rights to them.
they are dirty dirty dirty cheetz.
they may be polite cordial conciliatory, say all the right things to your face but turn your back & they will run you over if you dare come between them & their purse.
and it's a purse worth millions in sales to them that they won't let some 'punk' on a slapped together homebrew rig show them up to take money out of their pocket.

definitely huge thanx to you josh for the benefit of your experience.
if you had been injured or for some other reason hadn't posted this the world would never have known the depths optibike will sink to.
go read the optibike forum how they spin the win, it's like fox news.
craig only reports that you had a flat tyre nothing about optibike being the cause conveniently leaving out that little fact.
the rest of the forum membership even knowing the truth after reading it here goes along with the conspiracy of silence & carefully steps around even mentioning it.
(and they say there's no such thing as conspiracies, occurs even within a dink-ass little bike group!) :lol:
look at the dates & times of craigs postings, he only reached out to you after you went public here.

so now we know what we can expect from them & respond in kind.
next year team ES will need a few willing participants show up to volunteer just for the purpose of acting as blockers & take out a few of the optis by 'accident'.

dibbs on craiggy.

 

[Tom Tom]

Found a few more Pikes Peak related links.


http://connect.garmin.com/activity/110423332

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnvlAMAHMDU

 

[Josh K.]

Punks are people who don't follow the rules...

The Department of Transportation has clearly laid out the law, 750 watts, and 20 mph. That defines an E bike.
This way it is not a low powered Scooter, a moped, or motorcycle, which require DOT brakes, blinkers and more.

Safety features like a soft start, or a safety switch next to the throttle reduces accidental bursts of uncontrolled power.

So, if a pro rider, who trains Optipunks can't keep the machine under control, then what about Joe public?

Now don't get me wrong, we all love power, and like to go fast. I am not a preacher, and I race. But when I race a 25,000
watt machine from Zero to over 72 mph, in 11.9 seconds, I do it on a closed race track, in the open class for higher powered machines. It's great to understand the possibilities. But let's not have a 500 cc bike enter a 49cc event.

I would love to see an off road class open up, perhaps 2,000 watts would be an appropriate cap. But for right now, DOT
has defined what an E bike is. Otherwise, Punks like me would show up on my 48 volt, 300 amp Zero Motorcycle with some pedals slapped onto it.

I suspect that the 40 mph E bike is higher than 2,000 watts, because the coefficient of wind drag is a cubed factor over
17 mph. So, who is to say what is legal? DOT seems to be offering us an opportunity to create an industry, if we follow
their guidelines. These guidelines are designed to keep things safe. And when followed, then companies move towards
efficiencies, and start getting results like me. At Portland International raceway, I went 32 miles in an hour, on a closed course, on 12.6 watt hours per mile. That's half of what the winner had done it on the year before. And I was well within
the 450 watt hours allowed for the event.

It is my hope, that Optibike takes this opportunity to reflect upon their design, and to add in some safety features. I also
am interested in seeing some classes developed for E bike racing. Perhaps a street legal 750 watt limit, and a 2,000 watt off road limit, and an open class for those who feel the need for speed, and chose to run Big Block motors, like the Agne, Perm, or Mars. I could have brought my 48 volt, 40 amphour race trike, but who wants to kill ants with a hammer?

So Just to clarify, RunAbout Cycles ran a legal 750 watt system, and made it to the top.
Small planet E Vehicles ran a legal race, with a 600 watt continuous duty Hub motor, designed by the Swiss. 24 miles...
Pete's electric bikes ran a legal race, with the Kalkauf, for the second year in a row, and made it to the top.
Optibike Wins the event, but it costs others who play by the rules.

I suggest that Optibike runs some legal 750 watt bikes, put meters on em, and post the results next year. I hope we can
open up another class for off Road E bikes, but for now, I do not believe much of what Optipunks prints anymore. See, other companies did show up, A hub motor did enter, and made it most of the way, Optibike needs to back down a little, and let the other players come to the table, and show what they have as well. Hands off to em for what they have done, great bikes, but lets throttle em back into reality for saftey's sake.

Peace, Josh K.

 

[itchynackers]

I think everyone here sympathizes with you, even Opti. Unfortunately, these various strange things happen in every form of racing. I don't have a problem with the power output so much. What is bothersome to me is that there wasn't enough care taken in the first few seconds of an hour long race. I don't see the point in taking off so fast, thereby endangering others and their racing efforts. It was a long race, and more care should have been taken (at least until turn one). Even formula one guys give each other space in the first few seconds of a race.

On another note, I wish I could participate in something like this. It would be a great experience. Anyone have a guesstimation how many wh's are needed to get to the top in an hour (without pedaling)? Any chance a proper wind hub motor could do it? What about dual hubs?

 

[kfong]

I don't think many care if the ebikes are legal in this event. I for one don't. I just want to see what people come up with and the performance levels they can achieve. Opti already proved last year they owned the course with a street legal ebike. Why repeat it. If it was just a race with restrictions, they could easily tune down the new bikes in software to meet regulations and still win the event, since these ebikes are already quite optimized. You would have to bring something more capable to the table to beat them. They were prepared to take on more serious competition, unfortunately no one showed that could even even be a contender.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

arrgh, josh your killing me that i'm forced to side with optibike on this one particular point. :lol:
i think you're misdirecting you're anger & disappointment focusing on the wrong issue.
you're just too polite seeing only the good in people to allow yourself to believe anyone would deliberately hose you over good like they did.


1100W or a thousand at the wheel is california street legal as well as a few other states.
pikes peak is more of a showcase of capability & achievement than it is a race.
and that's what optibike did well within the rules & not at all a motorcycle with tacked on pedals
they certainly are punks for cheeting when they didn't need to but not over this.

i really hate doing this since i'm in awe of your grit as well as ingenuity.
how do you reconcile these statements, how is your 32 mph not following the rules any different from optibikes 35 mph??
can't be slightly pregnant.

Optipunks choose not to follow the rules, and safety
is compromised. 35 mph plus E bikes are not legal E bikes.

At Portland International raceway, I went 32 miles in an hour, on a closed course,

 

[Bike_on]

Opti did run street legal, USA in 2010 and took #1 and #2. Geesh, how can you knock them for going 1-7 in 2011?

We all had a friendly and interactive discussion about this race during the summer and the call went out to ES to step up to the challenge and race. It was endless dis-appear.

Anyone know if the Stromer bike finished?

 

[CraigT]

If it makes you feel any better, the 7th place Optibike was a stock 850R, with ~750w at the wheel (the federal law does not stipulate where the power is measured as far as I know)

Aside from the "boost" mode that gives the rider more power on acceleration (a few seconds only), the 850R is within the power limits- and still crushed every other entry.

Like I said on the phone, Josh, if you want a rematch in the next month, there are lots of big hills in Colorado. I will turn off the boost mode and we can go head to head "street legal" DOT style....as long as it puts an end to this drivel.

Deal?

Craig Taber
Optibike

 

[John in CR]

Craig,
I'll tell you what, since you make such a ridiculous amount of money on each of those toy ebikes you sell, and you're in the mood to issue challenges, why don't you hop on a plane with one and bring it down here to Costa Rica. I'll race you any distance on any paved route here (I don't have any offroad ebikes atm), mountains, flats, whatever. I'll even handicap my machine by disconnecting the pedal chain, and you can bring any pro cyclist you want. CR has way more cyclists per capita than anywhere in the US, and plenty of suckers paying silly bike prices too, so we can figure out a way to make a great tax deductible business trip for you.
John

 

[liveforphysics]

Josh- Its an electric bicycle race, they brought racing electric bicycles. Secondly, read the federal law, it says a motor rated for continuous output of 750w. All motors are zero percent efficient at 0rpm. If they start out with 1800w or even 18,000w, there is no way they are exceeding 750w output from a stop. I dyno electric motos and ebikes, I have never seen 1800w input at low speed ever equal over 750w out, or even remotely close to it.

However, the federal law (which doesn't matter for a racing event anyways) doesn't say a thing about what power levels you reach or exceed for bursts, it simple says the continuous output of the motor doesn't exceed 750w. Want to accelerate your 9c motor with 10kw of input power? Not a thing illegal about it, that motor is not able to do over 750w continuously, making it fall into the letter of the law.

Even if you wanted to interpret the law to mean you can never exceed 750w output (which is an incorrect interpretation) , you should still be sending at least 10kw into that hub to start, and never less than 1100w input for the whole hillclimb, and at no point are you going to be outputting more than 750w.

Don't put silly restrictions on yourself in a bicycles race an expect everyone to follow your misinterpretation.

As far as somebody crashing on the bike at the start, that's just bad riding. You see it in pedal BMX. You see it in F1. I see it racing superbikes and dirtbikes. I even see it in running on foot races with large starting groups. People get excited and botch starts. Its part of life. It totally sucks that it impacted your race so badly, but that's racing and it happens. He apologized, and that's more than you get from most racers.

 

[PaulD]

Interesting discussion guys, I am somewhat split on the power issue. So, lets say someone showed up on a 1200W bike and dominated... whats the point? Would Optibike be calling foul? No? how about 1300W? 1400? How are they going to top this next year? A 1500 watt bike? See where I'm going with this? It's all kind of pointless without restrictions because everyone will draw a different line as to what is an electric bicycle and what is an electric moped.
Apparently they had 48V 20ah packs (correct me if I'm wrong) with 1100W continuous motors. If the race is an hour long they could pull 960 W constant from the packs, lets say system efficiency (motor+controller) of 80% and you have pretty dang close to 750W continuous.
So, is this technically within the 750W law??
Please don't get me wrong, I think the results are great for the ebike community, I just would like to build something to race next year that is competitive, yet isn't beyond what an electric bicycle is. Where is the line?

Paul

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

You know, for a closed course event, I HOPE they don't start putting in restrictions!

CLASSES make sense, but why would we want restrictions? :wink:

I'd even be fine with this staying more what it is, a timed exhibition!

If this became a full blown "race" with a large purse for the winner, expect the price to participate to increase to cover the price of much more limited and restrictive rules and regulation that follow.

Then there will be the people contesting if another competitor is following the rules, more $$$ to cover the needed rule books, tech inspectors, required insurance coverage on participants, etc. etc.

I have no problem with a few friendly wagers and such, but unless we want to have people showing up and being disqualified from competing in their targeted class or in the event all together because of increased regulation, I'd say lets get the interest in the sport up first!

Too many rules would kill the event IMHO. Nothing wrong with some harmless banter and rivalry, but I have to say, if there is going to be a serious race, get ready for the mid-drives to walk away from the hub motors!

Sure a hub motor properly modified/specialized for the specific task will be competitive, but if it's limited to the same weight, watt hours of battery and motor wattage, a properly sorted mid-drive type E-Bike is going to beat a hub motor every time. Sure in a Drag race or some similar event that might not be true, but in true endurance test like this event, efficiency & power delivery is going to trump a big motor every time.

 

[jonathanm]

A manufacturer's claimed continuous power rating is a pretty poor basis for classes of electric motorsport if you ask me.

Some places rate their stuff more conservatively than others, some places need to be more conservative because their QC is not so hot, etc.

a ICE motor's displacement is easily quantifiable, measurable, testable etc.

electric motorsport needs to base classes on similarly easily quantifiable and testable metrics.

 

[PaulD]

You know, for a closed course event, I HOPE they don't start putting in restrictions!

CLASSES make sense, but why would we want restrictions? :wink:

I'd even be fine with this staying more what it is, a timed exhibition!

I totally understand your view, and maybe I'm taking this waaay too seriously..... but lets hypothetically say YOU were to build a bike to "compete" (the quotes are since you and others don't view it as a race) in the event next year, what would you do? Would you: a) build a 1100W, 1kwh machine like this years winners and hope than no one shows up with a 1500W 1.6kwh bike? or b) build a 4000W, 3+kwh monster that will probably win (if it holds together) but is basically a moped where pedaling is more or less irrelevant?
But, seriously, what would you do? (remember this is hypothetical... if you had to build a bike for next years race)
It feels like I'm taking crazy pills.. maybe I'm becoming the next Safe...

EDIT: and I forgot to mention, I'm not suggesting bringing a dyno to power test bikes to disqualify anyone. I think a simple weight restriction would do it. Add a penalty of like 30 seconds per pound over the weight limit. All you need is a scale and everyone gets to race! Too easy? I was going to say that nobody is crazy enough to bring a motorcycle with pedals, then I thought about Luke. :lol:

 

[Hillhater]

A weight limit is a good idea to control the "scale" of the bikes,..but it does not stop the "cheque book" racers building exotic frames from "unobtanium" materials to enable the use ofbigger batteries etc.
Maybe a "claimer" rule of say $10k - $15k to control any silly spendy specials ??

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

I have to say, if there is going to be a serious race, get ready for the mid-drives to walk away from the hub motors!

mmmkay, don't see how the hub debate was anywhere on the radar to what's being discussed.
but if you really can't help yourself & just have to get in your swipe then i guess i just have to rebut.



the problem with a hubmotor is that it is stuck in one gear, n'est-ce pas?
it's efficient at only one particular rpm.
in normal road racing where speed is never constant, you're relentlessly accelerating (either positive or negative) a hubmotor is at a decided disadvantage.
well, that along with it's higher inertial mass it sucks ballz really.

however in applications that run mostly constant speed without wavering off it's efficiency peak too much is precisely where a hubmotor is in it's element.
that's why a hubmotor works reasonably well for a commuter bike.
the overall percentage of time spent off-peak spinning up to speed is relatively low.
and climbing a mountain is even more steady-state constant rpm than commuting.
the terrain may vary a little but it's basically a pinned throttle race.

ask the opti-dweebs how much use they got out of their gears.
they said the first six or almost half their rohloff was dead weight.
really, if there was ever a race tailor made for a hubbie, pikes peak is it.

Sure a hub motor properly modified/specialized for the specific task will be competitive, but if it's limited to the same weight, watt hours of battery and motor wattage, a properly sorted mid-drive type E-Bike is going to beat a hub motor every time. Sure in a Drag race or some similar event that might not be true, but in true endurance test like this event, efficiency & power delivery is going to trump a big motor every time.

never heard of the CSIRO solar car hubmotor?? (i think you have).
don't know what size mountains they tackled but regardless the motor can't tell if it's pushing against the wind or pushing against gravity makes no difference.
history has already proven you wrong that it's the hubmotor that can't be touched for efficiency.

actually you sound a lot like josh's friend who attempted the climb with him last year.
he wrote off hubmotors completely from his wild extrapolation based on a few meager data points.

Learnings and take-aways are:


There is nothing like a derailer geared electric drive for efficiency on
steep hill climbs. All who made it were derailer geared, and all who didn't
weren't.

well mr. bidwell, the stromer (a hubmotor) almost made it going 24 of the 26 miles falling short only for the want of miscalculating by a few amp-hours.
he had 720Wh compared to optibikes that came equipped with over 1 kWh packs.
not much of difference in energy consumed either way.

 

[liveforphysics]

I think a simple weight restriction would do it. Add a penalty of like 30 seconds per pound over the weight limit. All you need is a scale and everyone gets to race! Too easy? I was going to say that nobody is crazy enough to bring a motorcycle with pedals, then I thought about Luke. :lol:

Yep, I think weight is the key as well, because it's extremely easy to check, universal, and tougher to cheat than anything involving trying to measure power. Weight means, as much as I would like to bring something with 20kw, I can't, because I would only be able to carry enough battery to go a few miles before I was eating enough 30sec penalties that it would be impossible for me to win. It would force both clever light weight bicycle designs, as well as pretty tight average power limits simply because you couldn't carry enough battery to make it up if you were excessively powerful.

 

[Kepler]

I also agree that weight is key to keeping people honest. The so called "legal limit" is just too open for interpretation and lets face it, it is a race and a good race needs good power.

I think 75 lb would be good max weight limit. With what is currently available, this would allow a good balance between power and endurance.

 

[dogman dan]

Yep. For a climb that long, a simple weight limit would do the trick for sure. A wh limit would be interesting too, say 1000 wh. Much harder to tech inspect, but a wh limit would allow any kind of bike shaped object to run, with any chemistry including lead if they want to go that way.

Regarding ebike law, does it apply at all to a closed course race? It would for most bike road races that happen on streets that are at best, partly closed or closed only for a downhill mountain section.

It seems to me that the only law that would apply on a closed course would be those stipulated in the race rules, such as obey the speed limt coming back down.

Such a drag to have another racer take you out. I felt really bad about it in the DR, when I took out another guy in a corner. But it's racing and it happens. That guy crowded me till I made a mistake crowding him back. In your case, there was no particular need for anybody to get a jump on the start. Not like you had a tight corner in 100' or something like that. So that boo boo was pretty lame. But again, racing, stuff happens. Maybe line up behind more powerfull bikes next time.

 

[liveforphysics]

Yep. For a climb that long, a simple weight limit would do the trick for sure. A wh limit would be interesting too, say 1000 wh. Much harder to tech inspect, but a wh limit would allow any kind of bike shaped object to run, with any chemistry including lead if they want to go that way.

A watt-hour limit is just so impossible to check though. Nano-tech's hold an extra full 35% capacity on the label if you extreme over-charge them without even hiding anything. Likewise you could use 8Ah cells and have label stickers written up that say anything you want. Or just put your pack in a box that makes it very hard to disassemble and inspect (like many of our packs are anyways). Power counting in-line shunts and things are also easy to cheat by by-passing them with other hidden wires etc.

Getting your bike weighed right before you go line-up is dead simple and very tough to cheat. It does penalize heavier guys like myself, as we have roughly the same weight for battery as the feather weight riders who dont need a much energy to make the same climb. A little bit of weight offset would be nice for heavier riders, but that's just getting fussy, I would be perfectly happy with just a fixed weight check before racing.

 

[bzhwindtalker]

Hello Josh, sorry to hear about your problems up the ride! I'm surprised you did not take the full suspention up the climb? Not enough space for battery maybe? Anyway your drive system is super nice and it was really cool to talk about building e-thing when we were in Colorado with our velomobiles

Adam From trike trek 11