Protean has a production ready hub motor for cars

[Paul_G]

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/07/12/protean-electric-snags-84-million-to-produce-in-wheel-motors-in/#continued

 

[The Stig]

There was a post about this in ebike general discussion forum, but heres a better post in the right place.

http://www.torquenews.com/1075/prot...ready-wheel-electric-motor-system-2014-launch

Protean's in-wheel electric motor systems could revolutionize drive train packaging and design, while making it very simple for automakers to adapt the electric drive trains to existing vehicle platforms.
Protean in-wheel motor system

Protean Electric debuted its production in-wheel motor at the 2013 Society of Automotive Engineers World Congress, with Protean's CEO Bob Purcell boasting that Protean's technology is the ideal transition technology to electric vehicles. The company, bills itself as the global leader of advanced in-wheel electric drive, designs electric motors which fit into wheels enabling vehicle design simplification.

In a press conference at the SAE World Conference Purcell showed a production in-wheel electric drive system. The system design is complete, and is going through final validation. The company's intention is to deliver to the market a component set that is "fully certified to all prevailing global automotive standards" and offering to the automotive industry the first plug-n-play vehicle electrification technology.

At it's heart is what Protean calls an in-wheel electric motor, and others call a "hub motor." Their design is packaged as the part onto which you bolt a standard wheel, and it provides the torque exactly where it is needed, at the wheel. This model eliminates the mechanical complexity of other drive systems that require a drive shaft, transmission, differentials or gear boxes.

The design is claimed to provide 75 kW (100 hp) peak power and 1,000 Nm (735 lb.-ft.) peak torque in each motor, yet each motor weighs only 31 kg (68 lbs.). This power-to-weight ratio is, according to Protean, the "Highest torque density of any of today's leading electric drive systems."

The combination means an automaker could quickly adopt this technology in an existing vehicle by adapting the Protean motor as the wheel hub, do away with the drive shaft and stick the battery pack where the engine used to reside. Well, it might be a little more complicated than that, but not by much.

The motor is packaged to be compatible with 18" wheels, making it a big large for the typical sedan. However this is the perfect size for light duty trucks. The company see's their technology as suitable for both OEM's to integrate into production vehicles, and conversion shops which customize trucks for commercial fleets.

“Protean Electric is ready to enable the global automobile industry as it moves to high volume, low cost hybrid and electric drive powertrains,” said Bob Purcell, chairman and CEO of Protean Electric. “Our system can be applied to current vehicle platforms, retrofit existing vehicles or create all new architectures for the future.”

 

[Doctorbass]

That's a great new.

Here is a some test video really interesting about it:

[youtube]cwDoou9m5wU[/youtube]

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

But back in the 80', A great guy, Pierre Couture from Hydro Quebec had the idea of building a powerfull wheel motor for car and to have it powerfull enough to regen the max power and also have the integrated drive inside... and was... AIR cooled!! no need of liquid, but in 1994, Hydro Quebec did not had the courage to support great M. Couture idea after they have invested 300 million dollars for a complete fully integrared system including a really compact generator:

1200Nm!... and was invented in 1994 in Quebec!.. The patent was badly managed and then, a decade later PML and many other began with same idea etc... This is teh same scenario as what happened with the Arrow airplane made in Canada that was one of the most performant airplane ever invented, but canada was a bit shy in front of the US to continue with the idea and stop the project!... There is alot of great Pioneer in Quebec but our polititian sem to be effraid by the competition they would offer to american and preffer to shut up... and let the prooject to be abandoned This story happened too many ime i think!

At least Joseph Armand Bonmardier that invented the snow mobile was supported and Cyril Duquet is the inventor of the first telephone handset, or transceiver, in 1878....

See the report here, it's really interesting!

Highlight: http://youtu.be/jHmxJPTWD-M?t=7m09s

http://youtu.be/jHmxJPTWD-M?t=2m55s

http://youtu.be/jHmxJPTWD-M?t=6m58s

Doc

 

[neptronix]

Only 67 pounds per side, hey! you can have a heavy obese electric car with lots of unsprung weight on it too..

They mention the peak power, but what is continuous? Prolly 30-40..

 

[The Stig]

Thats a real shame about that canadian innovation. I love canada and I never even been there. Those inventions and a lot of other things politics etc probably suffered from behind the scenes pressure from american corporations etc, esp big oil...

These car hub motors could make for some simpler and cheaper cars! Could tip family and casual eCars into mainstream markets! simplicity/reliability/low cost...

 

[neptronix]

Hey man, good motors are already around. I bet when you see the price of these compared to something like a netgain, you'll choke.

 

[dm9876]

yeah, seems like a good idea but unsprung mass issues would kill the handling.

a few years back these ones sounded promising but seemed to go no where. Not sure if the 3Ph AC axial flux induction approach would be less weight or what?

they also quoted similar power figures, but after some research I also realise it was "peak" output.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17184

Dean

 

[Dauntless]

The only way I could see real value to this would be if they had built it to replace the existing hubs on a gasser, for a relatively quick electric conversion. But nobody ever seems to do THAT. I mean, it's like I'm the only one sitting around coming up with drawings. (And me with no machine shop or motor knowledge.) I just don't understand why people in a position to actually get this done don't take it on. Hub motors are utilitarian and not performance, as the comments about the unsprung weight point out.

(So what's a good way to get a brake inside of there without sacraficing room for the motor AND without collecting more heat?)

 

[The Stig]

yeah, seems like a good idea but unsprung mass issues would kill the handling.

Yeah which is why this would only go in a non-performance car, like a Nissan micra, Leaf, or a smart car...
If they brought the weight down a bit then these could be a big hit at the right price.

If hub motors are doing well in the eScooter market that could be an indicator...

So what's a good way to get a brake inside of there without sacraficing room for the motor AND without collecting more heat?

The way to go could just be having Regen-Only in the rear and then conventional brakes up front (as well as the emergency brake). You could have back up resistors incase the Controller fails under breaking or something.

 

[flathill]

The cool novel thing about the motor is stacked stators so u got like 4-6 controllers per motor

----

Hydro quebec keeps tech ology off the market
They are like chevron with ovonics
They bought the lithium metal polymer tech and sold to a royal french family that papers more rolling paper and capacitor paper than anyone. You still cant buy the hummingbird battery

They also try to kill a123 with iron phosphate patents

 

[Dauntless]

Already got this picture in another thread, as well as a reference to using this hub. But there's not going to be a huge impact on handling for this car with a single hub back there, it would in fact be preferred by those who like to "Drive off the back wheel(s)." Depending on batteries you could build this one as a 1,200-1,500 pound car with a 100hp hub. I'd say that would be a decent performer.

Let's see, what other configurations might be at least some fun with a 100hp hub?

 

[Chalo]

Only 67 pounds per side, hey! you can have a heavy obese electric car with lots of unsprung weight on it too..

They mention the peak power, but what is continuous? Prolly 30-40..

What does 120-160 horsepower in a modern aerodynamic car equate to in steady speed?

Too fast for legitimate use, that's what. Even assuming 2WD and the lower 30HP per wheel figure, that's still too fast for legit use. 10HP in a normal small car will sustain 60mph. Therefore 60HP continuous power equals highly illegal and unsafe speeds, even in a big fat car.

 

[neptronix]

Right, and everyone knows you'll never exceed 10 hp in a headwind, or climbing a large continuous grade. Isn't it crazy how modern cars have a whopping 100 horsepower.. OR MORE? .... :lol:

 

[Chalo]

How many of them use 100HP continuously, rather than just to accelerate? Only the egregious speeders.

 

[friendly1uk]

That's an early 80s milk float design. My work depot did them shorty before I started, so I never saw one, but that is just as described. Then they took them out the hub and put them under the floor, which is when work stopped fixing them.

Seems like this design is going round and round, picking up new names with no real difference in design. Quite a few people here could make that without any examples. Very unimpressive. Unlike that red car

 

[itchynackers]

How many of them use 100HP continuously, rather than just to accelerate? Only the egregious speeders.

Just because you don't need it ALL the time, doesn't mean people shouldn't have it available. If I saw some crazy talking goofball wearing a dumb hat coming at me, I'd sure as hell use all the horsepower to get away from him/her. Then I'd go tow my boat up a hill (legal), or go to the local dragstrip (also legal).

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

on,on,on...
on zee autobahn

 

[h0tr0d]

When they were called PML flightlink, I ask for the price of the motors.

£15'000 per motor a few years back. Any news on price now?

 

[Doctorbass]

Ther eis a Quebec electric version of the T-Rex called the Silence PT2, was made in 2006 i think, but it had no hub motor.

Posted Specs:

Model: 100 KW +
Dimension of the vehicle: 13' length, 6' width, 4' height
Weight: 900 lbs (including battery)
Top speed: More than 125 mph
Autonomy: 125 - 250 mi
Price ( includes charger): $50,000 CDN = $42,765.81 USD (as of 3/2007 conversion rates)

http://www.kz1300.com/reversetrike/silence.html

 

[Chalo]

How many of them use 100HP continuously, rather than just to accelerate? Only the egregious speeders.

Just because you don't need it ALL the time, doesn't mean people shouldn't have it available.

This manufacturer is already claiming 100HP peak per wheel. Neptronix asserts speculatively that the continuous rating is 30-40HP. My point is 200HP peak/60HP continuous to two wheels is still more power than a car needs for legal speeds.

As for using a vehicle based on its ability to tow boats uphill, well, why not drive around every day in a fire engine, just in case you come across a fire? I bet that's legal too.

 

[h0tr0d]

This manufacturer is already claiming 100HP peak per wheel. Neptronix asserts speculatively that the continuous rating is 30-40HP.

110hp peak, 86hp continuous, 2.6 kW/kg is not very impressive, although it includes the controller inside...

My point is 200HP peak/60HP continuous to two wheels is still more power than a car needs for legal speeds.

That amount of power is very nice for "aggressive" regen...

 

[-dg]

I see lots of problems with hub motors in cars. The unsprung weight will hurt ride in addition to handling. I don't see that saving a couple halfshafts is really worth bothering with. And why put the controller in high heat high vibration environment? It also requires running power cable out along the suspension arms where they are exposed and easily damaged. This design seems to create more problems than it solves.

 

[zombiess]

Unsprung weight... I've worked around cars and car guys a lot (mostly the performance oriented crowd). When I purchased my 2002 Z06 the previous owner had put some ugly 19" fronts, 20" rears on it. First mod was putting stock 23lb 17/18" wheels back on it. Made it ride better, but handling wasn't effected much for street driving. I'm sure I'd notice the difference on the road course though.

Yes unsprung weight sucks, but it can be compensated for by suspension tuning pretty easily. At 68lbs per motor + another 30 for wheel tire we are at 100lbs for a setup. That's about the same weight as some donk's roll around with in their +22" goof mobiles. My friend who worked on a guys truck that had 22's on it and one of them scaled over 90lbs. Didn't believe him until I saw him scale it myself.

Just about every car you see rolling with ugly +20" wheels has a wheel + tire weight of about 70lbs each.

 

[liveforphysics]

How many of them use 100HP continuously, rather than just to accelerate? Only the egregious speeders.

This is mostly true, but I can tell you when you're climbing a mountain pass, dispite the 49fwhp we dyno'd with it, the car could really use another 20hp or so to get around at a speed I like to go over a mountain pass. The insight has 1/3rd the mass and drag of many popular massive SUV vehicles (which I would generally prefer to be crushed), and it really could use right about the power Honda claimed they made at the crank to actually make it to the wheels and the car would be perfect.

Many larger vehicles could reasonablely use even 200hp for heavy hauling situations over passes and things. Remember, the early but still full weight semi-trucks often didn't make over 200whp, they climbed hills fine, just had to travel at a bit lower speed.