Qulbix Raptor 140
- Thread starter Mammalian04
- Start date
Hyena
10 GW
Somewhat embarrassingly, months later I'm only just getting around to putting a chain on my 140 
Has everyone else been running with derailleurs or tensioners ? I put my chain on just now with quite a bit of slack in it but it still pulls tight when I sit on it and the suspension compresses. I suspect if I hit a decent bump it'd instantly snap the chain. Bummer, there goes my plan for building simple single speed raptors...
Has everyone else been running with derailleurs or tensioners ? I put my chain on just now with quite a bit of slack in it but it still pulls tight when I sit on it and the suspension compresses. I suspect if I hit a decent bump it'd instantly snap the chain. Bummer, there goes my plan for building simple single speed raptors...
For those with a raptor 140, you could build a nice size pack with these turnigy multistar packs. These packs are amazing with 20% less weight and 20% less volume than a regular lipo. They are even cheaper than turnigy 20C packs. A no brainer for big packs as why buy regular lipo packs when the high C rating is mostly a waste. You don't need a high C rating when you're only drawing about 3C max/peak from a large lipo pack.
You could build a 2600 watt hour pack (22s) that can be easily removable with 8 packs. Just 6 of these
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__72326__Multistar_High_Capacity_6S_16000mAh_Multi_Rotor_Lipo_Pack_US_Warehouse_.html
And 2 of these
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__72325__Multistar_High_Capacity_4S_16000mAh_Multi_Rotor_Lipo_Pack_US_Warehouse_.html
It would weigh 31 pounds, which is very light weight for a 2600 watt hour pack. Compare that with my 40 pound 2700 watt hour pack. It would also cost you only $908 dollars.
You can also connect it easily as there are only 8 batteries! compare that with my 24 Lipo packs. Or my future 22s upgrade with 28 Lipo packs!
This pack would also be able to be tied/taped together as a single pack and inserted into the raptor 140 frame opening for easy removal. The only issue is if the raptor has 140mm internal battery width as these batteries would lay 136mm wide. If the interior of the raptor 140 is less than 136mm than you couldn't fit them as easily.
For easy and super fast charging you would want to pair this with a Max-E controller with a BMS.
This is an amazing battery setup here. Both in Capacity, weight, ease of maintenance. The whole key is you can only use these packs with big batteries because of the C rating. Don't expect to buy 3 of these and use them. But you shouldn't be putting small packs in a bike like a raptor anyway.
The pack would be able to fit in the frame opening below. But what needs to be checked is the internal width of the raptor frame as the demensions of this pack would be
173mm high, 267 long, and 136mm wide.
You could build a 2600 watt hour pack (22s) that can be easily removable with 8 packs. Just 6 of these
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__72326__Multistar_High_Capacity_6S_16000mAh_Multi_Rotor_Lipo_Pack_US_Warehouse_.html
And 2 of these
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__72325__Multistar_High_Capacity_4S_16000mAh_Multi_Rotor_Lipo_Pack_US_Warehouse_.html
It would weigh 31 pounds, which is very light weight for a 2600 watt hour pack. Compare that with my 40 pound 2700 watt hour pack. It would also cost you only $908 dollars.
You can also connect it easily as there are only 8 batteries! compare that with my 24 Lipo packs. Or my future 22s upgrade with 28 Lipo packs!
This pack would also be able to be tied/taped together as a single pack and inserted into the raptor 140 frame opening for easy removal. The only issue is if the raptor has 140mm internal battery width as these batteries would lay 136mm wide. If the interior of the raptor 140 is less than 136mm than you couldn't fit them as easily.
For easy and super fast charging you would want to pair this with a Max-E controller with a BMS.
This is an amazing battery setup here. Both in Capacity, weight, ease of maintenance. The whole key is you can only use these packs with big batteries because of the C rating. Don't expect to buy 3 of these and use them. But you shouldn't be putting small packs in a bike like a raptor anyway.
The pack would be able to fit in the frame opening below. But what needs to be checked is the internal width of the raptor frame as the demensions of this pack would be
173mm high, 267 long, and 136mm wide.
Rodney64
100 kW
A couple of measurements of the 140 frame
Providing the battery is within the 200/300 then the full 140 width will fit as the side panels will push against the battery.
Providing the battery is within the 200/300 then the full 140 width will fit as the side panels will push against the battery.
Offroader said:
Plz be carefull with those statements about multistar packs.
when you fill your Raptor with those packs and just squeezing 3-4KW, "Maybe" its okay.
But on higher Setups the voltage sags alot. Beside that: a higher C-Rate Lipo will last longer because your using it at the Bottom of his "possibility".
A Multistar 10C is 20% lighter but youre using it at middle or upper top of its "Possibillity". (incl living with voltage sag on high(er) speed)
they have a lot higher resistance and will generate more heat. more heat = less cycles.
everyone can buy it, no Problem. I only want to tell that something cheap is maybe on the end of the bill not the best.
i have tested and cycled about 17000$ of HK Lipos ( a few hundreds)
atm i have a 20s Turnigy Nano Tech pack.(35-70c) (6P) and can tell you that this pack have a very low IR and sags only 2-3v on full Throttle (12KW)
my best pack EVER. I have AWG 10 Battery/Phase wires. Pushing 350A Phase. (Phase wires heats up to 50°c...iam very surprised about that because the wires are in the wind)
But this Pack gets temperature also. Not critical 4 sure. its about 35°c. With your hand you feel its a bit warm
Riding the same route with a 20s Zippy (also 6P and a bit more capacity) the bike is slower, the pack heats more up (crapy IR) Sags about 10v on WOT (!)
it works.....sure...but how long? Maybe a look to our first legal self build raptor (DLOGIC) is also interessting. He's riding also TNT PAcks and have 20000km on his Pack and its still in Balance and near Full Capacity.
Merlin good point about the C rating. That is why I said you should only use them in very large packs.
The question is if you use a 32Amp hour of multistars, and only draw a max of about 100 battery amps. Most people I doubt will draw more than 100 battery amps especially at 22s.
If you draw only around 100 amps max, you will only be pulling about 3C from these batteries. I don't think that will heat them up or cause premature wear. I don't know, I could be wrong. This is why I said don't expect to use a few packs of these as that is what most people do. I just don't understand how people are happy with using such small battery packs.
The multistars are rated at 10C continuous so they are rated to put out 320 amps continuous on a 32 amp hour pack.
But more tests and research should be done before using them. If you want the range and lighter weight, these may be the way to go.
The question is if you use a 32Amp hour of multistars, and only draw a max of about 100 battery amps. Most people I doubt will draw more than 100 battery amps especially at 22s.
If you draw only around 100 amps max, you will only be pulling about 3C from these batteries. I don't think that will heat them up or cause premature wear. I don't know, I could be wrong. This is why I said don't expect to use a few packs of these as that is what most people do. I just don't understand how people are happy with using such small battery packs.
The multistars are rated at 10C continuous so they are rated to put out 320 amps continuous on a 32 amp hour pack.
But more tests and research should be done before using them. If you want the range and lighter weight, these may be the way to go.
100 amps battery "only" is alot buddy
so everyone here is new to HongKong Lipos: the "C" Rating Label on every Lipo is same as many other stuff from china...
....not that inside thats on the sticker
really. in the RC Section where the lipos grow up: you can say 50% of the sticker on it you can really use.
a 20C Max Rate Lipo is usable in the real world about 10C.
sure you can squeeze more out of that. But beside the voltage sag and heat up you lost some cycles.
example:
RC 3D Heli Pilots like that:
[youtube]gRhGiaLBhOs[/youtube]
squeeze out up to 7-8KW(150A). in 4 Minutes a 12s5000 is empty. (250wh)
after landing your lipo has 50-60° (depends on quality (IR)) (this video is a smaller one (fiftys)
after 30-40 cycles you can feel that your pack hasnt that punch you liked and sometimes needed.
Pilots who are just cruising around with their copters can fly up to 8Minutes. Most of them throw their packs away after 80-100cycles.
(you know an rc flying enthusiast? ask him to give him his old lipos....;P)
Here some additional infos about using Lipos and their livetimes.
as you can see you can double your lifetime with charing only to 90%.
this is the same about "using it under fire"...
squeeze out from a 20C lipo on every single charge/discharge 20C and you are finish after 30-40 cycles.
squeeze out from a 20C lipo on every single charge/discharge 10C and you are finish after 100 cycles.
squeeze out from a 20C lipo on every single charge/discharge 5C and you are finish after 200 cycles.
squeeze out from a 20C lipo on every single charge/discharge 1C and you are finish after 1000 cycles.
squeeze out from a 20C lipo on every single charge/discharge 0,1C and you are finish after 2500 cycles.
just for example and explain the diff between a multistar lightweight 10c lipo and a 40c Lipo.
use a Multistar 10C (80$)continue Lipo 6s/8000mAh with constant current of 5C. Lipos has only 80% of Capacity after 200 Cycles.
use a TNT 40C (120$)continue Lipo 6s/8000mAh with constant current of 5C. Lipos has only 80% of Capacity after 400 Cycles.
with Multistar: 10000km and 800$
with TNT: 20000km and 1200$
a multistar can MAYBE LAST longer.
a TNT can MAYBE DIE earlier.
a 50HP Toyota can run 100000km without issue.
a 200HP Mercedes can die after 30000km.
all i want to tell is that the "Shit happens" Factor is everywhere.
but buying cheapest lipos isnt all the time the smartest way to save money.
this is all just for info, my experience after 10 years in using, buying, selling Lipos.
so everyone here is new to HongKong Lipos: the "C" Rating Label on every Lipo is same as many other stuff from china...
....not that inside thats on the sticker
really. in the RC Section where the lipos grow up: you can say 50% of the sticker on it you can really use.
a 20C Max Rate Lipo is usable in the real world about 10C.
sure you can squeeze more out of that. But beside the voltage sag and heat up you lost some cycles.
example:
RC 3D Heli Pilots like that:
[youtube]gRhGiaLBhOs[/youtube]
squeeze out up to 7-8KW(150A). in 4 Minutes a 12s5000 is empty. (250wh)
after landing your lipo has 50-60° (depends on quality (IR)) (this video is a smaller one (fiftys)
after 30-40 cycles you can feel that your pack hasnt that punch you liked and sometimes needed.
Pilots who are just cruising around with their copters can fly up to 8Minutes. Most of them throw their packs away after 80-100cycles.
(you know an rc flying enthusiast? ask him to give him his old lipos....;P)
Here some additional infos about using Lipos and their livetimes.
as you can see you can double your lifetime with charing only to 90%.
this is the same about "using it under fire"...
squeeze out from a 20C lipo on every single charge/discharge 20C and you are finish after 30-40 cycles.
squeeze out from a 20C lipo on every single charge/discharge 10C and you are finish after 100 cycles.
squeeze out from a 20C lipo on every single charge/discharge 5C and you are finish after 200 cycles.
squeeze out from a 20C lipo on every single charge/discharge 1C and you are finish after 1000 cycles.
squeeze out from a 20C lipo on every single charge/discharge 0,1C and you are finish after 2500 cycles.
just for example and explain the diff between a multistar lightweight 10c lipo and a 40c Lipo.
use a Multistar 10C (80$)continue Lipo 6s/8000mAh with constant current of 5C. Lipos has only 80% of Capacity after 200 Cycles.
use a TNT 40C (120$)continue Lipo 6s/8000mAh with constant current of 5C. Lipos has only 80% of Capacity after 400 Cycles.
with Multistar: 10000km and 800$
with TNT: 20000km and 1200$
a multistar can MAYBE LAST longer.
a TNT can MAYBE DIE earlier.
a 50HP Toyota can run 100000km without issue.
a 200HP Mercedes can die after 30000km.
all i want to tell is that the "Shit happens" Factor is everywhere.
but buying cheapest lipos isnt all the time the smartest way to save money.
this is all just for info, my experience after 10 years in using, buying, selling Lipos.
Rix
100 TW
Execellent points with the lipos Merlin, I will consider your input when I build my next pack. Spend a little more for higher C rating, get a lot more life out of your pack, thats financially sound.
You have to consider that if you build a reasonable size battery pack for your ebike you are not drawing very much amps. Right now I am drawing only 10 amps peak on each 6s 5000 20C pack. Probably I average around 5 or 6 amps on average.
High C rated batteries cost almost double a multistar.
Turnigy 5,000 6s 40C = $80 costs $16 per amp hour
Multistar 10,000 6s 10C = $100 cost $10 per amp hour
Multistar 16,000 6s 10C = $130 cost $8 per amp hour (half the price of a 40C)
I don't know if 40C rated batteries will really last that much longer than 10C multistars when you're only pulling very few amps from them. Merlin's point about using the batteries in a helicopter is not really valid with ebikes as a helicopter pulls massive amps and heats the batteries up to very high temperatures. (A helicopter will draw 100-150amps, an ebike only 5-10 amps per pack) An Ebike simply will never heat up a lipo battery if you build a reasonable size battery.
You also have to take into account battery weight and space. This is important for ebikes and is a huge benefit for going with the Multistars. You have 20% less weight and also 20% less volume. The volume is huge as we are space limited. This added benefit lower weight and volume should be factored in price.
What I found is that Lipo's seem to deteriorate with age even if you are not using them. I didn't experiment but I had lipos that I didn't use much and had sitting in my basement, I couldn't believe when I checked capacity and they were the same as many of my much more used lipos that were in my bike. Capacity just seemed to die with time rather than use. The other thing I noticed is that internal resistance is still low on all my 20C packs, probably new they were 2ohms, now 3ohms after two years. But they all dropped in capacity from 3300MAH to 2800MAH in this time. This may point to that capacity is lost with time and not use when you're only pulling small amps and cycling 3.7 to 4.1.
This makes me believe that you're better off buying cheaper lipos, because lipos lose capacity with time and most don't use their ebike that much to cycle them enough. Again, I didn't experiment or research much here. I will have to, but this is what my current thinking is.
If you want the best bang for your buck and cycle life than you're better off going with Lifepo4. But the tradeoff is that they may take up and weigh 40% more than the multistars!
So what is my point here? My point here is that it is doubtful you will get more than double the life out of a high C rated battery, but you will pay double the price. Even if high C rated batteries lasted more than double, I think you are better off replacing the multistars more often and also have the benefit of weight and volume savings. The other major point is that we draw too little amps for C rating to matter and Lipo life seems to be more affected with time than actual use, this is the fact that lips self deteriorate with age.
High C rated batteries cost almost double a multistar.
Turnigy 5,000 6s 40C = $80 costs $16 per amp hour
Multistar 10,000 6s 10C = $100 cost $10 per amp hour
Multistar 16,000 6s 10C = $130 cost $8 per amp hour (half the price of a 40C)
I don't know if 40C rated batteries will really last that much longer than 10C multistars when you're only pulling very few amps from them. Merlin's point about using the batteries in a helicopter is not really valid with ebikes as a helicopter pulls massive amps and heats the batteries up to very high temperatures. (A helicopter will draw 100-150amps, an ebike only 5-10 amps per pack) An Ebike simply will never heat up a lipo battery if you build a reasonable size battery.
You also have to take into account battery weight and space. This is important for ebikes and is a huge benefit for going with the Multistars. You have 20% less weight and also 20% less volume. The volume is huge as we are space limited. This added benefit lower weight and volume should be factored in price.
What I found is that Lipo's seem to deteriorate with age even if you are not using them. I didn't experiment but I had lipos that I didn't use much and had sitting in my basement, I couldn't believe when I checked capacity and they were the same as many of my much more used lipos that were in my bike. Capacity just seemed to die with time rather than use. The other thing I noticed is that internal resistance is still low on all my 20C packs, probably new they were 2ohms, now 3ohms after two years. But they all dropped in capacity from 3300MAH to 2800MAH in this time. This may point to that capacity is lost with time and not use when you're only pulling small amps and cycling 3.7 to 4.1.
This makes me believe that you're better off buying cheaper lipos, because lipos lose capacity with time and most don't use their ebike that much to cycle them enough. Again, I didn't experiment or research much here. I will have to, but this is what my current thinking is.
If you want the best bang for your buck and cycle life than you're better off going with Lifepo4. But the tradeoff is that they may take up and weigh 40% more than the multistars!
So what is my point here? My point here is that it is doubtful you will get more than double the life out of a high C rated battery, but you will pay double the price. Even if high C rated batteries lasted more than double, I think you are better off replacing the multistars more often and also have the benefit of weight and volume savings. The other major point is that we draw too little amps for C rating to matter and Lipo life seems to be more affected with time than actual use, this is the fact that lips self deteriorate with age.
i think you missunderstood. with my EXAMPLE of Flying Helicopters (for what they build for...RC Models)
i just wanted to show difference in Lifetime of Lithium Polymer Batterys.
Use it hard = less cycles
Use it smooth = more Cycles
charge to 90% only = more Cycles
charge to 100% or more = less Cycles
Heat them up = less cycles (Same Power!)
leave them cold = more cycles (same Power!)
(thats why BAtteries were cooled down in Cars. No matter what chemistry they are)
And Heat will be Generate of Resistance. I know you are driving your Raptor just with 4KW.
Thats total Ok. And yes. Whatever you fill in your Raptor, you will never heat up your batteries.
Yes, Multistar Batterys will be good for you. Its a Good deciscion.
But we have another People outhere. Some Crazy Heads with their DH Frames and Kiwi Dropouts are on 10-15KW.
(sorry iam that freak too)
donno if i wrote it: iam now on 20s 6P (!) with 24 pieces of 5s5000 35-70c Turnigys.
Means 175-350A for EACH Lipo. I have 24 of them. twentyfour....4200-8400 AMPERE
Okay thats wrong because only the Parallel one counts
So lets talk about (only) 35c. 175x6 = 1050AMPERE.
The IR of the Pack is 0,02Ω. Usable 2500Wh of Juice. Most time i cruise around with 3-5KW.
Thats enough for 80-100km. In my "Five Minutes" iam on 12KW. Cromotor overheats (120°) 3 Times on that Run. And after 50km Battery is Empty.
When i open my Sideplates. The Wires and Batterypack is warm. 35-40°.
iam not using 1000A Battery....Just 150 Peak. I think Middle Amps are only 50-70. Lets say 100 to make the calc easier.
Heres the Point were iam wondering with you too....when iam only on 1/10 of the rated "C" (1000A possible -> 100A using)
and 1000A means 35c. So iam on 3,5C only right? ..............looks like my Battery dont care about only 3,5C and gets temperature.
I dont have 10 bikes to test, and cant explain that exponential heat up. But its there. On 3-5KW my Wires and Battery stay Cold.
In 1-2 Weeks i will have new experiences with 10s5800 25C Zippys. The Batterys arrived this week and i will try my normal daily use with 2P/4P and 125v 2P/4P
still waiting about my new Controller from Sabvoton with some Special Mods ;D
btw: theres a huge difference in
- i have some (new) cells around, on the floor of my garage and they are 3 years old.
and
- i have some (new) cells around, in my fridge on nominal voltage (3,7-3,8v) and they are 3 years old.
probably a loss of 20% vs a loss of 2% (If they are new, they dont lost anything because the chemical process on first charge)
If someone had that idea to buy the normal blue one 40c -> they're old, heavy and not that price worth.
iam talking about turnigy nano tech or newer ones. Best Price is the 25-50c Series.
For me the 35-70C Series were the best i ever tested. Everyone know when you have a 5000mAh Lipo, you can squeeze out 90% (4500mAh)
this 35-70c series had usable 5200mAh Capacity. From 4,2v down to 3,5v (all 24 Packs i have)
....when i lost up to 20% Capacity after a few hundred cycles or some years. iam still in the "range" of a new/normal one (4200mAh)
If weight is Problem on a normal ebike, i say, go for it.
on a Raptor i dont see a Problem if theres 1-2Kg more in the Belly of the Beast.
to be honest: on every Ebike i dont see any Problem about 1-2Kg weight.
Offroader, dont try a weight discussion with your 17Kg Backwheel
:lol:
...ahhh damn...look what you ve done....another hour that iam writing ebike stuff at work
i just wanted to show difference in Lifetime of Lithium Polymer Batterys.
Use it hard = less cycles
Use it smooth = more Cycles
charge to 90% only = more Cycles
charge to 100% or more = less Cycles
Heat them up = less cycles (Same Power!)
leave them cold = more cycles (same Power!)
(thats why BAtteries were cooled down in Cars. No matter what chemistry they are)
And Heat will be Generate of Resistance. I know you are driving your Raptor just with 4KW.
Thats total Ok. And yes. Whatever you fill in your Raptor, you will never heat up your batteries.
Yes, Multistar Batterys will be good for you. Its a Good deciscion.
But we have another People outhere. Some Crazy Heads with their DH Frames and Kiwi Dropouts are on 10-15KW.
(sorry iam that freak too
)donno if i wrote it: iam now on 20s 6P (!) with 24 pieces of 5s5000 35-70c Turnigys.
Means 175-350A for EACH Lipo. I have 24 of them. twentyfour....4200-8400 AMPERE
Okay thats wrong because only the Parallel one counts
So lets talk about (only) 35c. 175x6 = 1050AMPERE.
The IR of the Pack is 0,02Ω. Usable 2500Wh of Juice. Most time i cruise around with 3-5KW.
Thats enough for 80-100km. In my "Five Minutes" iam on 12KW. Cromotor overheats (120°) 3 Times on that Run. And after 50km Battery is Empty.
When i open my Sideplates. The Wires and Batterypack is warm. 35-40°.
iam not using 1000A Battery....Just 150 Peak. I think Middle Amps are only 50-70. Lets say 100 to make the calc easier.
Heres the Point were iam wondering with you too....when iam only on 1/10 of the rated "C" (1000A possible -> 100A using)
and 1000A means 35c. So iam on 3,5C only right? ..............looks like my Battery dont care about only 3,5C and gets temperature.
I dont have 10 bikes to test, and cant explain that exponential heat up. But its there. On 3-5KW my Wires and Battery stay Cold.
In 1-2 Weeks i will have new experiences with 10s5800 25C Zippys. The Batterys arrived this week and i will try my normal daily use with 2P/4P and 125v 2P/4P
still waiting about my new Controller from Sabvoton with some Special Mods ;D
btw: theres a huge difference in
- i have some (new) cells around, on the floor of my garage and they are 3 years old.
and
- i have some (new) cells around, in my fridge on nominal voltage (3,7-3,8v) and they are 3 years old.
probably a loss of 20% vs a loss of 2% (If they are new, they dont lost anything because the chemical process on first charge)
If someone had that idea to buy the normal blue one 40c -> they're old, heavy and not that price worth.
iam talking about turnigy nano tech or newer ones. Best Price is the 25-50c Series.
For me the 35-70C Series were the best i ever tested. Everyone know when you have a 5000mAh Lipo, you can squeeze out 90% (4500mAh)
this 35-70c series had usable 5200mAh Capacity. From 4,2v down to 3,5v (all 24 Packs i have)
....when i lost up to 20% Capacity after a few hundred cycles or some years. iam still in the "range" of a new/normal one (4200mAh)
If weight is Problem on a normal ebike, i say, go for it.
on a Raptor i dont see a Problem if theres 1-2Kg more in the Belly of the Beast.
to be honest: on every Ebike i dont see any Problem about 1-2Kg weight.
Offroader, dont try a weight discussion with your 17Kg Backwheel
:lol:...ahhh damn...look what you ve done....another hour that iam writing ebike stuff at work
Merlin, I took into consideration everything you said and did more research. I still think the multistars are the way to go.
First point is that the Multistars are putting out more than their rated capacity also. So a 5200MAH multistar is putting out over 5200MAH. People on this forum also tested their capacity and reported they are higher than their rating.
Second it is true that weight isn't that much of an issue and I have said before that it is well worth the extra weight for extra batteries. However, when building these large battery packs saving 20% weight is always nice and when you have 40lbs of batteries like I do, knocking off 8lbs is a lot.
The whole point of the multistars is that if you're not drawing too many amps or too high C rating, there is no need for denser, heavier lipo. Ebikes just don't draw many amps and this makes the multistars perfect for them. My 20C 2700wh lipo battery are rated for continuous 800 amps! and I only pull max of 80. It is a total waste to have these high C rated packs on my bike. Even after hundreds of cycles my packs are still 3-5 ohms resistance, up from around 1-2 when new.
I am all about capacity and range. Multistars are about 20% smaller in volume and also weight, I could fit an even larger pack in my bike.
The important thing is to make sure your pack is large enough so you're not drawing too many amps.
First point is that the Multistars are putting out more than their rated capacity also. So a 5200MAH multistar is putting out over 5200MAH. People on this forum also tested their capacity and reported they are higher than their rating.
Second it is true that weight isn't that much of an issue and I have said before that it is well worth the extra weight for extra batteries. However, when building these large battery packs saving 20% weight is always nice and when you have 40lbs of batteries like I do, knocking off 8lbs is a lot.
The whole point of the multistars is that if you're not drawing too many amps or too high C rating, there is no need for denser, heavier lipo. Ebikes just don't draw many amps and this makes the multistars perfect for them. My 20C 2700wh lipo battery are rated for continuous 800 amps! and I only pull max of 80. It is a total waste to have these high C rated packs on my bike. Even after hundreds of cycles my packs are still 3-5 ohms resistance, up from around 1-2 when new.
I am all about capacity and range. Multistars are about 20% smaller in volume and also weight, I could fit an even larger pack in my bike.
The important thing is to make sure your pack is large enough so you're not drawing too many amps.
zlagger
10 W
I just started putting together this bike today.
There sure is a big space for batteries!
There sure is a big space for batteries!
Rix
100 TW
zlagger said:I just started putting together this bike today.
There sure is a big space for batteries!
Very nice components, what kind of battery chemistry voltage amps combo you going to be running with the TCXX?
zlagger
10 W
For the Crown Motor setup:
Adaptto Max-E controller & BMS with a pile of 20s Lipo...
Setup 2:
I have a Cro-motor V2 with a Prowheel ready to be laced with 11g spokes. Backup controller is a Methods 100V 300A monster. It's scary powerful.
Adaptto Max-E controller & BMS with a pile of 20s Lipo...
Setup 2:
I have a Cro-motor V2 with a Prowheel ready to be laced with 11g spokes. Backup controller is a Methods 100V 300A monster. It's scary powerful.
Rix said:
zlagger
10 W
A mix, I suspect...
I live in the Santa Cruz Mountains of California. My commute to work is 6 miles, mostly downhill, to our family's CNC machine shop. This is by the ocean. So about 800ft altitude change. The ride home is of course uphill and the current e-bike (Norco Shore with 750W bafang mid-drive)(12s Lipo 10AH) is 80% spent by the time I get home. I'm hoping this monster will do better and at higher speeds.
The second use will be on the many trails that run through the forest, this works great with the current Norco setup. Having no heavy hub-motor in the back keeps things nimble and I don't have to worry about breaking spokes on drops/jumps. I'm sure this new setup will more than keep up, but I am not sure how well that rear hub motor / spokes will survive. Time will tell. That is why I have backups.
I live in the Santa Cruz Mountains of California. My commute to work is 6 miles, mostly downhill, to our family's CNC machine shop. This is by the ocean. So about 800ft altitude change. The ride home is of course uphill and the current e-bike (Norco Shore with 750W bafang mid-drive)(12s Lipo 10AH) is 80% spent by the time I get home. I'm hoping this monster will do better and at higher speeds.
The second use will be on the many trails that run through the forest, this works great with the current Norco setup. Having no heavy hub-motor in the back keeps things nimble and I don't have to worry about breaking spokes on drops/jumps. I'm sure this new setup will more than keep up, but I am not sure how well that rear hub motor / spokes will survive. Time will tell. That is why I have backups.
Offroader said:
zlagger, I don't know if you read up on a lot of my past posts but I constantly kept breaking spokes on my cromotor.
I had to do like 4 or 5 complete wheel rebuilds and lots of replacing spokes in only a few months of riding. It was just crazy. The thing is when you do a hard hit and break spokes usually only about 6 of them will break at once with the 11 gauge, 14+ will break with 12 gauge, the problem is you now just bent your $100 dollar prowheel rim also, and it will now have a wobble you can't fix. 11 gauge simply are not strong enough.
I then decided to build it right and from Rix recommending thick spokes I decided to use 9/10 gauge spokes. This was the best thing I have done and my wheel stays perfectly true and I don't even check my spokes anymore. I also don't worry about breaking spokes anymore.
My recommendation is to go with a 17" prowheel rim from holmes hobbies with your cromotor and lace it with 9/10 guage spokes ordered from Buchanan. You can bash that wheel as much and as hard as you want and also get the better acceleration from the 17" and much better ride with the fatter 3.00" tire. With the Max-E I have no problems hitting 50+ MPH with my 17" also.
I had to do like 4 or 5 complete wheel rebuilds and lots of replacing spokes in only a few months of riding. It was just crazy. The thing is when you do a hard hit and break spokes usually only about 6 of them will break at once with the 11 gauge, 14+ will break with 12 gauge, the problem is you now just bent your $100 dollar prowheel rim also, and it will now have a wobble you can't fix. 11 gauge simply are not strong enough.
I then decided to build it right and from Rix recommending thick spokes I decided to use 9/10 gauge spokes. This was the best thing I have done and my wheel stays perfectly true and I don't even check my spokes anymore. I also don't worry about breaking spokes anymore.
My recommendation is to go with a 17" prowheel rim from holmes hobbies with your cromotor and lace it with 9/10 guage spokes ordered from Buchanan. You can bash that wheel as much and as hard as you want and also get the better acceleration from the 17" and much better ride with the fatter 3.00" tire. With the Max-E I have no problems hitting 50+ MPH with my 17" also.
zlagger
10 W
Appreciate the advice. I have been wandering how much abuse a heavy rear hub setup could take. Sounds like you really tested that out quite thoroughly.
Since I have the gear already ordered, I will still lace it. That said, I will order another rim & heavy spokes this week. Then I can be ready to make that change when it breaks.
How do you like the Max-E setup? Using the BMS?
Since I have the gear already ordered, I will still lace it. That said, I will order another rim & heavy spokes this week. Then I can be ready to make that change when it breaks.
How do you like the Max-E setup? Using the BMS?
Offroader said:
Rix
100 TW
Merlin said:
Of course you can, if rims didn't flex under spoke tension, then we wouldn't be able to true them. One of my 19x1.4 pro wheel rims are laced to a marzocchi MTB hub with 13g spokes and over sized nipples. No problem with truing with those spokes either. It just that 11g and smaller aren't up to the task of heavy fast powerful ebikes hub motors on the rear. Actually they are for road riding applications and if riding easy offroad. Not sure if that's the question you're asking though, can you elaborate?
zlagger said:
I only had it for a couple of weeks. I do like it but it does have quality issues.
First my display broke where it has lines through the screen and can't read anything. I will have to send it back for warranty.
It doesn't have the low power acceleration as much as my lyen 18fet, I think this is because they limit you on the phase amps unless you unlock it and void the warranty.
What I do like about it is that it makes the bike completely silent, it's feels more like you're on a bicycle now. The big reason I got it for and it works great is that I can now charge at 3000 watts safely and very easily. I can now charge my bike in 45 minutes with just 1 simple connector.
With the OVS, I can now push 53MPH at 18s compared to only 38MPH with my lyen 18fet.
I seem to overheat my cromotor a lot less, but that may be due to using the throttle through the Max-E so I can control low speed better and possibly the limiting of the phase amps. Although I'm pushing 5300 watts now compared to 4300 watts on my Lyen 18fet. It could also be due to more efficient running of the cromotor.
Merlin said:
It simply isn't strong enough when you ram that rear wheel into a curb or hole, or possibly even riding over a decent size log. When that rear tire slams on what we call a "square edge hit", the 11g spoke elbows are not strong enough to deal with those forces.
Jumping seems to be fine, like I can do a drop a few feet onto flat ground and never a problem. It is more of a problem of hitting or riding over something with a square edge.
You may even think your safe with 12G if you ride safely. Not the case, I had to use 12G spokes as a temporary solution until I got my 9/10 gauge. I was riding very safe with them. I was riding in a park and came down a little hill slowly that had a large ditch right before the paved path. I couldn't slow up or avoid it and as soon as that rear tire entered the ditch and contacted the edge of the paved road, I cracked fourteen 12G spokes and bent my new $100 rim to where I couldn't true it radially. Had to junk the rim.
11 gauge, 12 gauge are just a time bomb in my opinion, you will crack them eventually when you hit something unexpectedly even if you drive safe. At least with 11 gauge you will only crack about 5 of them. 12 gauge on a heavy bike like a raptor, you will crack most of them and potentially have a total wheel fail, which I was lucky to avoid when I broke fourteen of them in one hit.
zlagger
10 W
Offroader, I'm looking into getting some heavier 9/10g spokes, but I am getting conflicting information about spoke length.
On Holmes Hobbies site, they state:
Crystalyte HS= 180mm one cross 12ga or 11/12ga
Cromotor= 181mm one cross 12ga or 11/12ga
Then if I use any spoke calculators (tried 2), then I get the following
17x1.6" size
36 hole
416mm ERD
Hub flange diam 232mm
flange spacing 32mm
spoke count 36
cross 1x
Spoke Length = 107mm
On Holmes Hobbies site, they state:
Crystalyte HS= 180mm one cross 12ga or 11/12ga
Cromotor= 181mm one cross 12ga or 11/12ga
Then if I use any spoke calculators (tried 2), then I get the following
17x1.6" size
36 hole
416mm ERD
Hub flange diam 232mm
flange spacing 32mm
spoke count 36
cross 1x
Spoke Length = 107mm
