Alan B
100 GW
I just tested the throttle onset and it does have a little more deadband than some, but not all that much. We could adjust the position of the paddle on the half-twist and change the feel that way to some degree. A more programmable controller would really open things up for adjustment.
Traditional cyclists are accustomed to spending a lot of money on things that don't matter much on an ebike. Buying lighter brakes, wheels, frames and other parts gets very expensive and benefits the rider when using their own few watts of leg power to propel the machine. All this changes when a motor is added to the bike. Riders coming from this background have a hard time understanding the change in priority and return on investment. A large proportion of the ebikes on Endless Sphere were built from the $100 to $200 bicycle shaped objects from big box stores, or old used mountain bikes that were far behind the norm (like our Canyon Express). Rather than spend hundreds to thousands on lighter components, a fraction of that spent improving the controller, battery and motor yields greater overall benefits. This is now reflected in many of the commercial products. They don't have a lot of budget to spend on the bike parts when they have to buy expensive lithium batteries and all the other things that an ebike requires. The end result is optimization for what's important. For a commuter that doesn't pedal much, investing in top of the range shifters, cogs and chains is a waste of money. That money is better spent on the battery, motor, etc. By the time you get down to $1500 ebikes there isn't a lot of funding to be inefficient with. Sondors found out the hard way, you can aim too low. One of the nice things about bicycles is how easy it is to change some components. Swapping out seats, brakes, chains, shifters, handgrips, etc is trivial. You can make serious upgrades for a small investment as long as you avoid the overpriced bicycle components that don't really help an ebike that much. Buy an ebike for the bones you want, not the glitz. This is nothing like buying a car. With an ebike you can upgrade most of the bits for pocket change, less than a tank of gas in that big SUV or Pickup Truck.
The RadCity is quite a step up from the big box store BSO at $100-200. It isn't quite up to the level of a $700 bicycle, but what should we expect from this price point? There are plenty of $5,000 pedal bikes if you want to start there. Of course they have the wrong optimizations for an ebike.
If we look at the RadCity as a basis, what is good about it? We will be pretty much stuck with things that are too hard to change, those need to be "good enough" for the purpose. We're not looking for "best in class". This ebike is going to be commuted to death, and it might even be stolen. Do we want to titanium plate it? Not really. We want to make it "adequate" for a reasonable overall cost. The bits that we don't care for we can upgrade, as we didn't spend too much to start with. One thing a commuter values is a good rack. The RadCity has a very good rack. It doesn't twist around or shake loose, it is part of the frame and rated to carry several times as much weight as a typical aftermarket rack. Any bike with a lesser rack is not as good a commuter. Another is a good kickstand, and functional fenders. Aftermarket racks, fenders and kickstands are pretty lame compared to the ones on the RadCity. The frame is adequate. This isn't for cross country racing. The fork isn't very advanced, but a great fork costs more than the whole bike, and all we're trying to do here is soak up some pavement bumps, not absorb falls from leaping ravines. This is something that can easily be upgraded, too, but isn't on our list. It is adequate.
If you really want a great bicycle underneath your ebike (not something we are looking for in this commuter), buying a new ebike is absolutely the wrong way to do it. Instead you buy a great used downhill or mountain (or whatever) bike and you DIY it into your ebike. It can be a lot of work but the end result can exceed most of the commercial products and fit your goals better, if you are a decent craftsman. Or you can weld up your own frame and do it all from the ground up as one friend of mine does, using the best parts and spend $20K to get exactly what you want for each and every component. There are many paths through the ebike wilderness. I've done that and didn't want to do it here.
Another friend of mine used his bike to ride everywhere - he had no car. This was years ago, before the ebike craze, and he had a decent bike that was totally camouflaged with scars and bad paint (and a lot of money in the bank rather than bike and car). He didn't need a lock, no one ever bothered it. High end parts and pretty paint job make your ride a target. Point being that the mediocre paint may be an advantage here... We're not looking for a flashy "steal me" look here..
In terms of motor, the mid drives require too much maintenance and have some very bad failure modes for a commuter. They wear out chains and sprockets and if the chain snaps you have lost both propulsion systems at once. Mid drives are also pricey and have a ton of moving parts.
Next are the geared hubmotors. Those give better acceleration and climbing performance than a direct drive hub at the same power level. They also have a lot more moving parts, shed heat poorly, cost more (for all those moving parts) and require maintenance. If you dump a few more watts into a DD motor it will outperform the geared motors, and the DD motor can dissipate the heat far better.
The DD motor has essentially no moving parts - the bearings that it has are required of any wheel. No brushes, with the magic of controller electronics it just works. It is a bit heavier and needs a bit more power to get equal performance, but it will take it, and much more.
So cross out all the geared hubmotors and mid drives for our reliable commuter application. We may need a little bigger battery and controller, but the increase in reliability due to the direct drive's simplicity is worthwhile.
On the plus side the RadCity comes with a reliable DD hubmotor, a good rack and kickstand, adequate fenders and a decent frame. It is paid for, we're not shopping other bikes anymore. We're working with this one. It has proven a more than adequate starting point.
The stock controller is a bit weak, but that's because they follow the most conservative interpretation of the ebike regulations across the states, and they detune it from there for other markets. That's a marketing decision. Most wide market ebikes do the same. If you want something much "faster" your going to have to push beyond that. Remember the $15,000 Optibike was outperformed by a DD hubmotor very similar to the one on the RadCity when it was "well fed". Note that after that embarrassment Optibike came out with some "special" models that had a lot more power. Off road only, right. They cost even more. Optibike is a good example of an ebike that spends a lot of money optimizing the stuff that isn't important to a commuter. It cost 10X as much, does it get to work 10X faster? or on 10X less energy? Hardly. It certainly doesn't require 10x less maintenance. I'm sure they are fun, but for a different market, folks who probably don't commute on them. That's why RadPowerBikes sells more bikes than OptiBike and pretty much everyone else. We want to get our money's worth, and that's where the RadCity wins.
We're not looking for a faster machine on the level or downhill, we just want decent speed going uphill. Well within the ebike speed limits. Class III doesn't guarantee anything other than higher on the level speed, so is pretty meaningless in terms of climbing speeds. A Class I or II may have better performance than a Class III on some gradient, 20 mph on a grade is a pretty good speed. They all have the same power limits, Class III has no actual benefits. So I don't put much value in the Class designation. One requirement here, stated from the start, is throttle. A fully Class III bike requires pedaling, which is not where this bike's user-commuter wants to be. I don't mind pedaling, but this bike is not for me. I have plenty of other ebikes to ride already. So Class III is out by definition. Most commuters want to get to work safely and efficiently. Requiring pedaling isn't necessary or helpful for that.
I think we're pretty much there at this point with regards to climbing rate with the upgrades thus far. He would like more but it is at least adequate now. Out of the box it was lacking. It slowed too much on the hills and became a safety hazard, like a pedal bike on a steep ascent with cars whizzing by a few feet away. (Safety may be inversely proportional to the number of cars that pass you, the fewer the better.) The upgraded motor controller has helped out there without increasing the system voltage. To go further would require either higher voltage or a lower Kv (or lower resistance) motor. I think if we do go any further that raising the voltage might be a better next step. Selling the 48V battery, controller, display and chargers and either using the existing 52V battery or getting a newer higher capacity one. The existing 52V battery from the Canyon Express is already slightly higher capacity in terms of watt hours, but this could be improved further with other pack choices. This also allows interchange with other battery packs we have in our ebike fleet including larger 20AH triangle packs or the small 6AH pack which would give many options for extended range or lighter weight for short trips.
Riding a few ebikes around for an hour or a day doesn't give much perspective to work from. My commute route was a fairly good testbed over 26 miles and almost two thousand feet of climbing up to 15% gradient, and over it I rode many ebikes from DD hubmotors to Geared to Mid Drives for many years. I found what worked best for me. It was absolutely not what I thought at the start, even with a lot of advice from ES. Anyone who thinks they know at the start where this journey will end is either prescient or mistaken. Especially in terms of knowing what is the best choice for someone else. It's probably best to understand that and not spend too much on your first ebike - save it for the ebikes and upgrades you'll want later on.
Traditional cyclists are accustomed to spending a lot of money on things that don't matter much on an ebike. Buying lighter brakes, wheels, frames and other parts gets very expensive and benefits the rider when using their own few watts of leg power to propel the machine. All this changes when a motor is added to the bike. Riders coming from this background have a hard time understanding the change in priority and return on investment. A large proportion of the ebikes on Endless Sphere were built from the $100 to $200 bicycle shaped objects from big box stores, or old used mountain bikes that were far behind the norm (like our Canyon Express). Rather than spend hundreds to thousands on lighter components, a fraction of that spent improving the controller, battery and motor yields greater overall benefits. This is now reflected in many of the commercial products. They don't have a lot of budget to spend on the bike parts when they have to buy expensive lithium batteries and all the other things that an ebike requires. The end result is optimization for what's important. For a commuter that doesn't pedal much, investing in top of the range shifters, cogs and chains is a waste of money. That money is better spent on the battery, motor, etc. By the time you get down to $1500 ebikes there isn't a lot of funding to be inefficient with. Sondors found out the hard way, you can aim too low. One of the nice things about bicycles is how easy it is to change some components. Swapping out seats, brakes, chains, shifters, handgrips, etc is trivial. You can make serious upgrades for a small investment as long as you avoid the overpriced bicycle components that don't really help an ebike that much. Buy an ebike for the bones you want, not the glitz. This is nothing like buying a car. With an ebike you can upgrade most of the bits for pocket change, less than a tank of gas in that big SUV or Pickup Truck.
The RadCity is quite a step up from the big box store BSO at $100-200. It isn't quite up to the level of a $700 bicycle, but what should we expect from this price point? There are plenty of $5,000 pedal bikes if you want to start there. Of course they have the wrong optimizations for an ebike.
If we look at the RadCity as a basis, what is good about it? We will be pretty much stuck with things that are too hard to change, those need to be "good enough" for the purpose. We're not looking for "best in class". This ebike is going to be commuted to death, and it might even be stolen. Do we want to titanium plate it? Not really. We want to make it "adequate" for a reasonable overall cost. The bits that we don't care for we can upgrade, as we didn't spend too much to start with. One thing a commuter values is a good rack. The RadCity has a very good rack. It doesn't twist around or shake loose, it is part of the frame and rated to carry several times as much weight as a typical aftermarket rack. Any bike with a lesser rack is not as good a commuter. Another is a good kickstand, and functional fenders. Aftermarket racks, fenders and kickstands are pretty lame compared to the ones on the RadCity. The frame is adequate. This isn't for cross country racing. The fork isn't very advanced, but a great fork costs more than the whole bike, and all we're trying to do here is soak up some pavement bumps, not absorb falls from leaping ravines. This is something that can easily be upgraded, too, but isn't on our list. It is adequate.
If you really want a great bicycle underneath your ebike (not something we are looking for in this commuter), buying a new ebike is absolutely the wrong way to do it. Instead you buy a great used downhill or mountain (or whatever) bike and you DIY it into your ebike. It can be a lot of work but the end result can exceed most of the commercial products and fit your goals better, if you are a decent craftsman. Or you can weld up your own frame and do it all from the ground up as one friend of mine does, using the best parts and spend $20K to get exactly what you want for each and every component. There are many paths through the ebike wilderness. I've done that and didn't want to do it here.
Another friend of mine used his bike to ride everywhere - he had no car. This was years ago, before the ebike craze, and he had a decent bike that was totally camouflaged with scars and bad paint (and a lot of money in the bank rather than bike and car). He didn't need a lock, no one ever bothered it. High end parts and pretty paint job make your ride a target. Point being that the mediocre paint may be an advantage here... We're not looking for a flashy "steal me" look here..
In terms of motor, the mid drives require too much maintenance and have some very bad failure modes for a commuter. They wear out chains and sprockets and if the chain snaps you have lost both propulsion systems at once. Mid drives are also pricey and have a ton of moving parts.
Next are the geared hubmotors. Those give better acceleration and climbing performance than a direct drive hub at the same power level. They also have a lot more moving parts, shed heat poorly, cost more (for all those moving parts) and require maintenance. If you dump a few more watts into a DD motor it will outperform the geared motors, and the DD motor can dissipate the heat far better.
The DD motor has essentially no moving parts - the bearings that it has are required of any wheel. No brushes, with the magic of controller electronics it just works. It is a bit heavier and needs a bit more power to get equal performance, but it will take it, and much more.
So cross out all the geared hubmotors and mid drives for our reliable commuter application. We may need a little bigger battery and controller, but the increase in reliability due to the direct drive's simplicity is worthwhile.
On the plus side the RadCity comes with a reliable DD hubmotor, a good rack and kickstand, adequate fenders and a decent frame. It is paid for, we're not shopping other bikes anymore. We're working with this one. It has proven a more than adequate starting point.
The stock controller is a bit weak, but that's because they follow the most conservative interpretation of the ebike regulations across the states, and they detune it from there for other markets. That's a marketing decision. Most wide market ebikes do the same. If you want something much "faster" your going to have to push beyond that. Remember the $15,000 Optibike was outperformed by a DD hubmotor very similar to the one on the RadCity when it was "well fed". Note that after that embarrassment Optibike came out with some "special" models that had a lot more power. Off road only, right. They cost even more. Optibike is a good example of an ebike that spends a lot of money optimizing the stuff that isn't important to a commuter. It cost 10X as much, does it get to work 10X faster? or on 10X less energy? Hardly. It certainly doesn't require 10x less maintenance. I'm sure they are fun, but for a different market, folks who probably don't commute on them. That's why RadPowerBikes sells more bikes than OptiBike and pretty much everyone else. We want to get our money's worth, and that's where the RadCity wins.
We're not looking for a faster machine on the level or downhill, we just want decent speed going uphill. Well within the ebike speed limits. Class III doesn't guarantee anything other than higher on the level speed, so is pretty meaningless in terms of climbing speeds. A Class I or II may have better performance than a Class III on some gradient, 20 mph on a grade is a pretty good speed. They all have the same power limits, Class III has no actual benefits. So I don't put much value in the Class designation. One requirement here, stated from the start, is throttle. A fully Class III bike requires pedaling, which is not where this bike's user-commuter wants to be. I don't mind pedaling, but this bike is not for me. I have plenty of other ebikes to ride already. So Class III is out by definition. Most commuters want to get to work safely and efficiently. Requiring pedaling isn't necessary or helpful for that.
I think we're pretty much there at this point with regards to climbing rate with the upgrades thus far. He would like more but it is at least adequate now. Out of the box it was lacking. It slowed too much on the hills and became a safety hazard, like a pedal bike on a steep ascent with cars whizzing by a few feet away. (Safety may be inversely proportional to the number of cars that pass you, the fewer the better.) The upgraded motor controller has helped out there without increasing the system voltage. To go further would require either higher voltage or a lower Kv (or lower resistance) motor. I think if we do go any further that raising the voltage might be a better next step. Selling the 48V battery, controller, display and chargers and either using the existing 52V battery or getting a newer higher capacity one. The existing 52V battery from the Canyon Express is already slightly higher capacity in terms of watt hours, but this could be improved further with other pack choices. This also allows interchange with other battery packs we have in our ebike fleet including larger 20AH triangle packs or the small 6AH pack which would give many options for extended range or lighter weight for short trips.
Riding a few ebikes around for an hour or a day doesn't give much perspective to work from. My commute route was a fairly good testbed over 26 miles and almost two thousand feet of climbing up to 15% gradient, and over it I rode many ebikes from DD hubmotors to Geared to Mid Drives for many years. I found what worked best for me. It was absolutely not what I thought at the start, even with a lot of advice from ES. Anyone who thinks they know at the start where this journey will end is either prescient or mistaken. Especially in terms of knowing what is the best choice for someone else. It's probably best to understand that and not spend too much on your first ebike - save it for the ebikes and upgrades you'll want later on.