Samsung 50E vs LG M48 vs "Tesla" (help me choose new battery pack)

[c111jp]

How's it going? I currently have 13s5p 48v 17.5ah hailong2 battery with Samsung 35E cells (don't know which gen or version or even if they are genuine). Which cells would you recommend as an upgrade to 35E? I'm mainly looking to increase capacity and charging speed. I do want to keep haillong2 form for various reasons. Looking to receive it here in Japan as quick as possible so main options are Aliexpress, Amazon and such.

Seems like 2 main aliexpress/ebay etc manufacturers are Chamrider and UPP (Unit Pack Power). Both don't have that much 18650 packs left in the offer, and prices seem to be same, or even bigger than 21700 packs in some cases. UPP seems to offer more up to date stuff like bluetooth BMS too. UPP also has quickest shipping to my place right now while I would need to wait until May for Chamrider (and they don't even ship to Tokyo in some cases).

My usage:
I have custom built MTB, pretty much bare bones with no screens or anything, only throttle, battery, controller and motor. Not sure of power output but motor is gearless, labeled as 500w but same type is often sold as 1000-1500w motor. Controller is also unknown but my guess is 750w. I am very kind to battery, I take care of temperature, charging environment and I mostly cycle it through 30-80% soc (will charge it to 100% few times per year to balance the cells). It does get very hot in the summer here though so it experiences high ambient temps and direct sun exposure from time to time. Bike is very light for ebike and I'm running on 26x1.5 tires so it's pretty efficient. Whole drivetrain, battery, controller and motor is cold or lukewarm at best, no matter how I ride.
I do about 25-35km one way on my commute, then I charge it and head back. From time to time I want to do longer trips in one go. I pedal most of the time and I ride with low load, constant speed 70% of time, with ocassional short bursts. So far I did about 9000km in 2 years on this battery and it's holding up fine but I think it might start getting a bit tired some time soon. When I bought it, it was a bit "fishy" as the seller was selling 14Ah and 17.5Ah for pretty much same price. I told them I will check cells and when I received it I confirmed cells are pink so should be 35E but couldn't see much more as it's all wrapped up and didn't want to massacre it. I can get anywhere from 60-90km range but it's hard to say with so many variables. I've been charging it with 2A only so it does have more charging potential than what I was using so far.


So far I'm leaning towards UPP's hailong 2 48v 20Ah (realistically 19Ah) Samsung 50E pack with bluetooth BMS as it seems to be the best value overall and 50E cells on paper seem like everything I would need. But at 60 000yen it ain't cheap. Partially that's due to Yen being weak I guess... Usually 60 000yen = roughly 600$ but now, it's more like 430$. So I'm afraid I'm not getting 60 000yen worth of battery... Not a seller's or cell's fault but inflation is to blame. I would need this battery to last me at least 3 years with proper care, and to be in good enogh shape after that to either sell or keep as a spare. I am paying twice than for last one after all. If it's anything as specs suggest on paper, that should be doable. Main attractiveness with 50E is high standard charging current at 2.45A. Problem is, on to my surprise, that there doesn't seem to be that many chargers which could actually use the cell's potential. If I would to charge it with 8A in 13s4p, that would still be "only" 2A per cell which is below rated current. I couldn't find a single 8A charger (input voltage 110v) from those sources. The best I could find is one that can push out 7A at 110v input or 8A at 230v input. Quite pricey too. Not that I would need to charge at these high currents all that often and would do so for 30-60min max but that capability would be the biggest reason to go for that cell. Charger they provide with this pack is 3A and I would use that like 90% of time. Some people might dismiss it's 10A output as low but I don't think I will be seeing more than 5A per cell, 7A if I get tired of it and do a shunt mod. Even then, it would be short bursts only. Bluetooth BMS should clear up exact numbers too as I currently can't tell for sure what's going on.


2nd choice is their 19.2Ah LG pack sitting at 10 000yen cheaper. After trying to squeeze more info out of them, it seems they use LG M48 cells. Problem is, I could barely find any info on that cell, it's like it doesn't exist. Eventually I ended up in Tesla waters. Seems these are used in Teslas and specs seem to be not too great. Particularly concerning is high temp sensitivity and low cycle life. More confusing is that UPP also lists packs with Tesla cells along with LG cells so it's all so confusing. Probably mix of everything is used in those packs. Not really into it. My question is, are these LGs 21700 really that bad??And does anyone have experience with packs which use "actual Tesla cells"?

Well, 3rd option is to just get same pack as I already have and pray that they send me at least same thing I have right now. Then get 5A charger as my fast charging option and that should be 1A per cell, just what 35E is rated for. I would still use 2A charger like 90% of time though. Would have new battery and faster charging option. Same seller is still listing it for same price, which is 30 000yen.

Thanks!

 

[From-A-To-B]

You demonstrate a very solid understanding of how to get the most out of a battery and prolong its useful life.

I have no direct experience with UPP or Chamrider, and would regard both battery manufacturers with a healthy dose of skepticism. ES has gotten a handful of reports of UPP packs igniting (due to poor construction? Misuse? Hard to say — they do distribute a TON of batteries.) Similarly, I wouldn’t blindly trust a Chamrider battery, personally. If I were buying from either of these sources, I would be keen to open up the battery directly upon receipt, cut the shrink wrap, confirm the quality of the build, and address any issues I see.

So in the end, I think it’s a bit of a coin toss for you. It’s my second or third hand impression that Chamrider / UPP are not the bottom of the barrel of pack distributors — which is a good thing because you’re more likely than not to get a serviceable battery. And if you use any battery gently, you’re likely to get the most out of it.

Samsung 50E cells are great, FWIW, and seem to fit your use case of 20A or less continuous draw from a 4P pack.

It is not difficult for me to order a 54.6V, 8A charger from AliExpress to the USA— maybe it’s different for you in Japan?

Link to charger

Lastly, as long as all the cells in a pack are aging well and aging together — as in: you aren’t seeing one cell group fall out from the rest — batteries are likely to age into unusefulness rather than nose over a cliff. It’s good to be prepared for the end of life of your battery so you can keep your roll on, but you could get several more good years from the battery you have.

 

[c111jp]

You demonstrate a very solid understanding of how to get the most out of a battery and prolong its useful life.

I have no direct experience with UPP or Chamrider, and would regard both battery manufacturers with a healthy dose of skepticism. ES has gotten a handful of reports of UPP packs igniting (due to poor construction? Misuse? Hard to say — they do distribute a TON of batteries.) Similarly, I wouldn’t blindly trust a Chamrider battery, personally. If I were buying from either of these sources, I would be keen to open up the battery directly upon receipt, cut the shrink wrap, confirm the quality of the build, and address any issues I see.

So in the end, I think it’s a bit of a coin toss for you. It’s my second or third hand impression that Chamrider / UPP are not the bottom of the barrel of pack distributors — which is a good thing because you’re more likely than not to get a serviceable battery. And if you use any battery gently, you’re likely to get the most out of it.

Samsung 50E cells are great, FWIW, and seem to fit your use case of 20A or less continuous draw from a 4P pack.

It is not difficult for me to order a 54.6V, 8A charger from AliExpress to the USA— maybe it’s different for you in Japan?

Link to charger

Lastly, as long as all the cells in a pack are aging well and aging together — as in: you aren’t seeing one cell group fall out from the rest — batteries are likely to age into unusefulness rather than nose over a cliff. It’s good to be prepared for the end of life of your battery so you can keep your roll on, but you could get several more good years from the battery you have.

Thanks for your input. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, definitely not ideal kind of sellers but seem like only option considering everything right now. I actually mentioned fire cases to UPP and they said, I quote : "the fire caused due to the customer not correctly using ".



I guess there is nothing much more to think about but go ahead and buy it. Only thing that worries me is if they are using some sort of counterfit cells wrapped in Samsung wrap but considering scale at which they sell, really shouldn't be the case. I will inspect it immediately upon arrival but hopefully won't have to ruin wrap and internals completely. I checked some of those "popular" sellers but honestly prices are just waaay up there and they don't seem to offer stuff like bluetooth BMS etc.

Actually, now when I think about it, does anyone have experience with these Bluetooth BMS? It's only about 30$ extra and it would be super useful to monitor stuff as I'm "tapping in the dark" right now but seems like it can't be switched off? I doubt there is any dedicated button for bluetooth, but hopefully it turns off with battery killswitch at least?

Thanks for the link for charger. I tried searching in various ways and it didn't show that one for me. Tried after seeing your link, and it still won't show up for me. Actually, Aliexpress is quite crappy with their algorithms and what not, it's constantly trying to "tune something". Also happens that it messes up completely when I open someone's link and the only way to reset it is to delete all cookies (happened when I opened up your link for example).

 

[From-A-To-B]

Re: the sentiment of: “popular sellers don’t offer more, and are more expensive” — if by popular you mean sellers who are well-regarded (such as EM3EV), then I’d say you’re paying for quality workmanship and a warrantied product.
The higher cost product isn’t worthwhile for some people, and many folks just can’t swing it. That’s perfectly fine. But certainly a lot of what you’re paying for is to NOT have to check the pack for counterfeit cells

Also - yes, I’d say that an extra $30 for the Bluetooth BMS is well worth the cost. I have experience only with JBD and Daly BT BMS’s, and I absolutely love the ability to check on my pack with my cell phone.

 

[docw009]

I've bought seven batteries since 2017 from UPP, all of them 13ah or smaller. I have paid extra from Samsung/LG/etc and when I looked, they had Samsung/LG cells, but also had the promised AH and longevity. I've also bought them with the cheap generic cells and those lose capacity fast,

I did not try to look up your candidate batteries on aliexpress. If you wish more comments on them, I;'d suggest you include the links. One limiting factor on charge current is the connectors. Hailongs need the three pin connector to handle more than 3A.

I didn't know UPP had Hailongs with BT BMS. I bought a BT BMS but's too big for any battery case I own. If it has BT, then it also should have balance. Balance is one feature you don't get with the typica;l UPP battery.

For 20AH, I would rather have a big 6P/7P 18650 pack than a 4P 21700, but I'll take a 5P 21700. Better to have as much reserve capacity as you can. They rate the AH capacity at 1 amp/cell. so more P gives more reserve.



.

 

[c111jp]

Re: the sentiment of: “popular sellers don’t offer more, and are more expensive” — if by popular you mean sellers who are well-regarded (such as EM3EV), then I’d say you’re paying for quality workmanship and a warrantied product.
The higher cost product isn’t worthwhile for some people, and many folks just can’t swing it. That’s perfectly fine. But certainly a lot of what you’re paying for is to NOT have to check the pack for counterfeit cells

Also - yes, I’d say that an extra $30 for the Bluetooth BMS is well worth the cost. I have experience only with JBD and Daly BT BMS’s, and I absolutely love the ability to check on my pack with my cell phone.

Absolutely, I'm sure the build quality is outstanding, and prices aren't actually that bad either. What I'm thinking though is they are still limited by the cells they use just like everyone else so the longevity would depend on that... So I'm trying to determine if cheaper sellers also use legit cells and have passable build quality.. That particular seller doesn't have anything with 21700 cells as far as I can see right now.

I've bought seven batteries since 2017 from UPP, all of them 13ah or smaller. I have paid extra from Samsung/LG/etc and when I looked, they had Samsung/LG cells, but also had the promised AH and longevity. I've also bought them with the cheap generic cells and those lose capacity fast,

I did not try to look up your candidate batteries on aliexpress. If you wish more comments on them, I;'d suggest you include the links. One limiting factor on charge current is the connectors. Hailongs need the three pin connector to handle more than 3A.

I didn't know UPP had Hailongs with BT BMS. I bought a BT BMS but's too big for any battery case I own. If it has BT, then it also should have balance. Balance is one feature you don't get with the typica;l UPP battery.

For 20AH, I would rather have a big 6P/7P 18650 pack than a 4P 21700, but I'll take a 5P 21700. Better to have as much reserve capacity as you can. They rate the AH capacity at 1 amp/cell. so more P gives more reserve.



.

Here is the battery I'm currently looking into https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004868489756.html?spm=a2g0o.store_pc_groupList.8148356.19.644f782dEPpn7k&pdp_npi=2@dis!JPY!￥ 53,603!￥ 42,882!!!!!@21038edc16772524549788989e6610!12000030822539313!sh

I was interested in 48V19.2Ah LG HL-2 and 48V20Ah Samsung HL-2 but will most likely go with Samsung. If space and weight were not an issue, I would be looking into different packs but I need the bike to be as light as possible, as stealth as possible and currently it's a perfect balance of that so I want to keep that form. Love the build quality of hailong2, perfect size, never any problems.

Edit: Now I see it's not even 20$ difference between 48v 20ah and 52V 20ah, but 52v is in hailong MAX (3) case. Have to see if I can fit it on my bike (currently not, have to re-arrange setup), and if it would be unpractical on daily basis.

Also, first time hearing there are packs that actually don't have balancing function (while charging). Will shoot them a question. If that's the case, then my old pack might not have it either so I was doing occasional full charges for no reason.

 

[From-A-To-B]

Do share what you hear back from UPP re: balancing while charging. That information would be helpful to future forum members who are looking to make an informed purchase.

 

[c111jp]

Sure, here is my question:
"I have one more question regarding BMS. Does this battery have a cell balancing function? It was pointed out to me that some of your packs don't use BMS with balancing function. Thank you"

UPP reply:
"default BMS is without balance, add 20USD can customize balanced BMS"

Wow! Thanks for pointing that out! This is exactly what I'm talking about. I think balancing is very important and the fact that they would lowkey not write anywhere that they don't have it by default even though it's ONLY 20USD to add it is worrisome. Like, by that logic they could send me battery that's not wired internally at all, I check the battery, doesn't work. Send them a message and they say, ah yeah nickel strips and welding 10USD extra. Technically it doesn't say anywhere it is wired inside so... Idk, a bit sleezy tactics if you ask me.

I guess there is pretty good chance my current battery don't have it either then. I might rip it apart again just to check as I'm very curious now. What would be the best way to check? I'm assuming it's going to be wired from BMS to all parallel groups? I know there are few different types ways of balancing.

 

[amberwolf]

What you really want to ask for is matched, new, high-quality cells.

Matched meaning the *same* internal resistance and capacity and all other properties.

It has been very difficult or even impossible to get this across to various companies by various members over the years; I'm not sure that anyone has actually been successful in the case of the typical Chinese battery building company. (there is a recent thread with an example, though I coudln't find it quickly in a search). So I wouldn't make any bets that you can get UPP (or any other particular company) to build a battery this way.

Typical battery builders do not match their cells (if they did their packs wouldn't become unbalanced until they aged enough for the cells to become unmatched, which could take years depending on the cells and how hard they are used relative to their capabilities). At best they say they make sure the voltages are the same, which is not relevant to matching them, and they *might* also say they make sure all internal resistances are "below" some value...but this is not matching and it isn't helpful for keeping a pack "balanced" on it's own.

All the balancing function does is make sure that all the cells (groups) are equal in voltage by the end of charge/balance each time. They don't fix unmatched cells, they just "patch" the differences between them, so that the pack can provide something close to the capacity of the worst of the cells in it.

 

[c111jp]

Got it. So unmatched cells which is most likely in this case and no balancing function by default is definitely not ideal. Considering all of this, I think the pack is way too expensive for what it is. Not sure which direction I should look into or what I should negotiate with them from this point. They can say whatever they want of course. Was looking for some straight forward option rather than replacing cells myself as I want to start riding now when the spring hits but seems like this will be almost as much hassle. Good thing I opened this thread, I certainly never saw around much being mentioned about lack of balancing function being so common and it will surely help others reading this.


As for 52v vs 48v, I checked and I won't be able to fit hailong MAX in current setup due to controller position. Will need to move it, but not sure where and it will most likely not be most ideal position both aesthetically and functionally. I already used this ebike drivetrain across 2 bike frames and it was pain to find space on both for neat build.

I checked my controller and caps are 63V, 12-fets FBM75N68 so should be good to go for 52v.

Having extra poke and for longer definitely wouldn't hurt but range is my main focus. Would I see any, even small improvement in range with 52V over 48v in scenario where I'm cruising at 1/4 to half throttle? My theory is that there should be slightly less heat losses?


I'm also worried that less than 20$ difference between their 48v 20ah and 52v 20ah packs since 52v both needs more cells and uses more expensive case. Fishy....

 

[amberwolf]

Since they buy in bulk the differences in component costs may be very small vs what you would see as an end-user. Plus if they are using very cheap cells and/or not adding to the cost with testing/matching labor, would keep costs even lower.

If you can fit them and create a containment for them that works for you functionally/aesthetically, EV-grade large-format automotive cells would be one way to ensure matched cells (unless there is something wrong with them, then even a module from a used EV pack will have better-matched cells than most small-format (cylindrical, etc) celled packs typically have. Places like BatteryHookup often have used EV modules that can be repurposed for ebike packs.

I'm still using >decade-old EIG automotive cells that were used when I got them, and they still remain balanced, which means they are still relatively well-matched in characteristics), though they are showing their age in greater voltage sag and lessened capacity. (and I'm not using any BMS or balancers, so this is entirely the cells being the same that keeps them balanced).

 

[docw009]

I was interested in 48V19.2Ah LG HL-2 and 48V20Ah Samsung HL-2 but will most likely go with Samsung.

These would be 13S-4P 21700 cells, or 52 cells per battery. Price is $422-460 with a BT BMS. That does include shipping from China, and UPP does it legally, so that's probably $40-50 in carrier fees. I think the price isn't too high.

I recently spent $85 to buy a smaller Hailong case that can hold 39 21700 cells. It includes a $25 non-BT balance BMS. The 40 LG cells will be $5/each for another $210 shipped, Then I have to build it.

 

[c111jp]

These would be 13S-4P 21700 cells, or 52 cells per battery. Price is $422-460 with a BT BMS. That does include shipping from China, and UPP does it legally, so that's probably $40-50 in carrier fees. I think the price isn't too high.

I recently spent $85 to buy a smaller Hailong case that can hold 39 21700 cells. It includes a $25 non-BT balance BMS. The 40 LG cells will be $5/each for another $210 shipped, Then I have to build it.

Definitely not expensive when checking in dollars. As I've mentioned above, problem is since I'm buying in yen, due to inflation I will be paying quite a bit more than someone earning and paying in USD. Usually eoughly 600$ = 60 000yen but now 400$ = 60 000yen (the price of pack is 60 000yen). In fact, ever since I started this topic the pack went up about 1500yen when checked in yen. It is what it is though...


Anyway, I've asked UPP about cell matching and after trying to squeeze it out of them for days they simply said "cells will be matched". They will say just about anything at this point just to get it over with though.

I contacted chamrider to ask about their cells, BMS etc but no reply at all.

Contacted OCTBAPACK to ask about their packs and to ask which cells they use in their Panasonic packs.
They said they use GA cells, and that they don't use bluetooth BMS as there are "apparently" many problems with them. Everything weirdly written (thorugh translator probably). Fake claims too as they claim 48V 19.5 Ah in Hailong 1-2 case with these cells which is impossible. They offer 48V 21Ah in same case with same cells which is even more impossible.

Didn't bother with that saikeung or whatever as they claim bedtime story capacities with 909404Ah and their reviews are horrible.
Other random options are even worse.


In the meantime I opened up my battery to inspect it a bit more. First of all, I think it'very nicely assembled. Everything very neatly packed with Barley and wrapped in shring wrap (not just thrown in together). Welds are nice and there is not a single sign of corrosion on strips. I was wondering about that because I got caught multiple times in the rain as Tokyo weather is more unpredictable than your lady on PMS (and humidity is generally high here).

BMS has cell balancing and everything is also hooked up neatly. Not sure which BMS it is, markings I can see are ECY-P13SB00 something something which I can't see clearly but googling didn't reveal much. Rest is in chinese and I see 25A and 90A written so I assume continuous and cutout.

However I was not able to confirm most important thing and that's the cells. They are pink but I couldn't see any writting on any of the 10 or so cells that are exposed. They are either all rotated so that label is on the opposite side OR they don't have any writtings at all (in that case fake?). I would need to remove one of the cells to tell for sure and I don't want to do that. If the build quality is any indicator, cells should be legit but you never know...

 

[yachtsteve]

I've read this thread with interest because I'm considering those same batteries the question I've got I think some of the experts would know it automatically, they have a HL2, and then a PL2 suffix, and I don't know what that means I have a Bafang battery right now and just looking for another battery that'll fit right into I think maybe you would call it the shoe? Anyway if anybody can help me with that I would appreciate it

 

[amberwolf]

There are many batteries discussed in this thread. Which specific ones are "those same batteries" you are referring to?

If you have a specific battery mount that you must find a new battery with a casing that will fit it, we'd need to know exactly which battery mount you have. If you don't have the name of it you can post good clear pictures of it, and of your existing battery case, to help us help you find the right one.

Regarding the battery inside the case, do you need one that is better in some way than the original? If so, or if not, then if you can give us the specs and any other info you have about the original, plus the extra that you need it to do, we can help you find ones that will do the job you need it to do.

 

[yachtsteve]

I bought this electric bike conversion kit from Bafang USA. I got the entire kit the 1000 watt motor and this jumbo battery. What I'm trying to do is just get a second, or backup battery, but in my question I saw that on the battery there was a suffix, and I assumed that described how the battery slides onto the battery bracket perhaps I'm wrong?

 

[E-HP]

BMS has cell balancing and everything is also hooked up neatly. Not sure which BMS it is, markings I can see are ECY-P13SB00 something something which I can't see clearly but googling didn't reveal much. Rest is in chinese and I see 25A and 90A written so I assume continuous and cutout.

How were you able to verify the bms has balancing?

 

[c111jp]

How were you able to verify the bms has balancing?

All cell groups are hooked up to BMS's Balancing port (B).

 

[E-HP]

All cell groups are hooked up to BMS's Balancing port (B).

Ah, can you post a pic? I'm going to open up my pack and take a look, but wasn't sure what the visual difference is between a BMS that balances and a BMS that just monitors the cell groups and protects against under/over voltage when detected.

 

[lnanek]

Theoretically there should be a bunch of resistors on the BMS board you can check for. It's common to have extra pads per cell and populate more or less of them to offer products with more or less balance current. Theoretically they could be entirely not populated even.

 

[amberwolf]

THere are two kinds of BMS that do balancing. Passive, and active.

Passive have a row of resistors and transistors (and other parts) at least equal in number of sets of parts to the number of series cells it monitors, usually near the cell connector. These may be covered in opaque "goo", but the rows of identical parts are often still discernable, telling you they are there. Somewhere around here are some posts by me that have images of various types of balancing BMS.

Active have specific BMS chips which include charge pumps or controls for charge pumps to transfer current from high cells to low ones.

If you don't see the stuff passive requires, you'd have to check the p/n marked on the chips to see if they are the active type of chip. If they are not, then the BMS is probably not a balancing type. Google usualy finds some form of the chip marking p/n for the ones I've looked up for people here on ES.

 

[Matze_Senpai]

im also looking to buy a UPP 52v 20ah(19.2 ah actually) , they cost around 370-400€. it also states tesla or lg cells . price seems pretty good to me, but im not sure entirely. they seem to be using 21700 cells. the only downside i see is that stupid 2 hole hailong pack that will need grin double bob....what even are tesla cells anyways? if anyone is running a pack like this, please tell us your experience till now

 

[yachtsteve]

im also looking to buy a UPP 52v 20ah(19.2 ah actually) , they cost around 370-400€. it also states tesla or lg cells . price seems pretty good to me, but im not sure entirely. they seem to be using 21700 cells. the only downside i see is that stupid 2 hole hailong pack that will need grin double bob....what even are tesla cells anyways? if anyone is running a pack like this, please tell us your experience till now

Can you explain what that means " that stupid 2 hole hailong pack" I'm apologize for the noob question, I'm trying not to be the retarded new guy here but clearly I am

 

[Matze_Senpai]

Can you explain what that means " that stupid 2 hole hailong pack" I'm apologize for the noob question, I'm trying not to be the retarded new guy here but clearly I am

they make these hailong mount plate that only has 2 mount holes usually it will not fit on most mtb bikes. then u need some 30$ adapter

 

[docw009]

This is the the two hole plate on a Hailong 2 cradle. The careful DIY mike builder will add a 3rd, naybe a 4th hole in the back half.

The cells alone can weigh 6 pounds, more than can be safely held by two screws meant for water bottles.
,