Solving motor faults- Halls and controller checked

[Bluefang]

Hello. My Golden hub motor stopped working properly last night, ridding along all good and then started to slow down and the controller went into safe shut down. Stopped the bike, wouldnt start from dead stop but if i was moving alittle it would go up to about 5km/h then cut out again, slightly jerky too.

To me this indicates hall sensors, i opened the motor and tested from the legs of the individual hall sensors to the plug that connects to the controller to test continuety, Testing by holding one lead from the voltmeter on one of the wires on the plug and then testing all the legs of the halls. All the positive legs gave a couple of ohms, the positive legs gave the same with one of the sensor legs giving like 80ohms. All the sensor wires tested fine.

The fact that one of the halls registered when testing the negative does that mean anything or do i have to do other tests?? Thanks

 

[thewmatusmoloki]

I had exactly the same thing happen to me 2 days ago, turned out that 2 of my phase wire's were touching due to a faulty connector. I had left the bike in the sun for an hour down at the seaway then got on and rode at about 45kph, I think the combination of summer heat + 120% throttle had kind of melted the insulation around a bullet connector.

If that's not it , then it does sound like a faulty hall.
I've learned (the hard way) to look for an easy,cheaper fix first before taking the motor apart.

 

[Bluefang]

taking the motor apart was the fun bit

i have 3 spare Halls so i think i might just replace all 3 so it doesnt happen again, if its not the halls then 3 new ones will certaily remove them from the equation.

 

[thewmatusmoloki]

taking the motor apart was the fun bit

Haha, Yeah it was fun the first 40 or so times.
I couldn't get the old hall sensors out without destroying them, the're usually glued in real good.
Dunno if this will help but check this link out..
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=94

 

[Bluefang]

Yes that helps alot, i will try that test in the morning. Hopefully it does point to one of the halls been faulty cause it will be a easy fix then.

 

[Bluefang]

Seeing as i had the motor apart, i swapped all 3 halls. Put the motor back together and installed, still has the same problem abit worse even, wont run just shudders or dead stops if i stat spinning it by hand.

I tried that test that was linked. I clipped a sensor to the halls negative line, and then tested the V on the 3 sensor wires while slowly rotating the wheel. 2 sensors showed 1.94V and one showed the 4~V the same as the positive wire for the halls for the whole time no matter how i rotated the wheel.

Anyone have any idea why they wouldnt change at all, these are newish sensors that i know were working.

Derek.

 

[Bluefang]

bump. The motor spins fine on a sensorless controller and i opened my 12Fet controller so see if anything is burnt out, all good. So its probably still a hall problem, but what would cause such a static reading.

 

[dnmun]

sorry no info to make a guess with. did you test the first set of hall's before you took the motor apart and removed them? what did you use to replace them? is there 5V on the red lead? are all connected to the controller for sure and is the ground connected too? can you test the controller on another motor? this is the 500W BD36 golden motor?

 

[Bluefang]

Its ok, i found out what was causing my problem, there was a short in the circuit board that all the sensors mount on in the motor, caused all the sensores to die

Ordering new sensors and throwing out the little circuit board.

 

[thewmatusmoloki]

Cool, I'm glad you worked it out , I was still thinking some kind of wiring short myself

 

[Bluefang]

Ok, now i have another problem, or really the same problem slightly different but all the hall sensors work.

Replaced all the halls and the little circuit board inside the motor they sat on, complete new cables for halls, to end it all they are all working perfectly now. changes state as i slowly spin the wheel, almost no volts to 5volts and back etc.
In my smashing way to get into the motor i managed to knock loose one of the relays that Hyena had installed for wye-delta switching didnt notice and put it all back together and promply broke the relay cover etc. Opened up the motor again and pulled all the relays, dont need to go over 40km/h and it does that easy on 12S. Wired back to wye, 1 of each phase wire all joined and soldered together then the extra phase wires taken out to the controller. Put it all back together and now i have the same problem i started with.

All the phase pairs read the same ohms on my multi meter 3somethingorother. Bike will move from a dead stop(different from before) but shudders and jerks and has very low torque. And i dont have a sensored motor to test the controller with, but i have opened it looking for burn marks, dry solders etc but looks all fine.

Any suggestions on what could be wrong with it still.

 

[Hyena]

I'd replace the hall wires right the axle. If you were rough enough to break the epoxy holding the relays in chances are you may have broken one of the fine halls wires inside the axle. It'll be a bit of a bugger getting new ones in as clearance is tight with the 12ga phase wiresbut if you solder a new phase wire from the inside and pull them through one at a time using the old wire you should be able to do it fairly easily.

If you've put it back into star config and it's working fine with a sensorless controller then it still has to be a hall problem, and if they're all new then it must be the wiring itself. Unless you used a type that weren't compatible ??

 

[Bluefang]

Well i had spare wires when i removed all the relays and the temp sensor(couldn't be buggered setting up 12V supply) So i could pull all of the wires out easily and replace them. I also checked each wire for continence and all of them were fine from the legs of the sensors untill the connection to the controller

Is there any protective circuitry in the Inferon controllers that would fry if there was a short with the halls?

 

[thewmatusmoloki]

I also checked each wire for continence and all of them were fine from the legs of the sensors untill the connection to the controller

I, too, would have done that test, however it won't tell you if 2 hall wires are intermitently touching each other inside the axle.

I have a spare golden motor just sitting around here. If you want to use it to test your controller on another motor just send me a PM. From your video it looks like you're at the northern end of the coast, I'm at Labrador.
Doing that will tell you conclusively if it's wiring ,motor or controller.

 

[Bluefang]

PM sent, thanks for the offer

Sorry for the late reply had to work late....

 

[Bluefang]

Ok, So far nothing i have done has fixed the E-bike so i called in the tech support, Dad.

I have now rewired the motor completely, new halls and new phase wires thru the shaft and everything. I have a new 6fet controller to test with along with my original suspect 12fet controller.

Tried motor with both controllers and same problem, freewheels perfectly but add a little resistance and it stalls, just stutters back and forth with only a few degrees of movement.

My father has a oscilloscope so we ran a bunch of tests, all the halls are latching perfectly and have a square wave when running at speed, when its stuttering 2 halls would be stable and another would be going back and forth.
With the phases we had to test each one separately unfortunately, each one when freewheeling had a wave with twin peaks? not sure if thats ment to happen. When the motor is stalled out they become very noisy.

To me it seems to be trying to pull in current and then hitting something that cuts all the current so it starts again when stalled, tried it with both controllers a totally stock 6fet ecrazyman and a high power 12fet Lyen controller so it cant be controller causing the current to drop, any one have any ideas on what it could be or of any other tests needed.

Regards,
Derek

 

[John in CR]

It was probably a short of the halls in the axle that started all the problems to begin with. That burnt the little circuit board, which may or may not have burn sensors each time.

It brings up a good question. What the hell are those hall circuit boards for anyway? The must serve some purpose.

 

[oldhaq]

Hi, check each wire for a short to motor/axle or other wires. Failing that test that the feedback voltage is making it back past the (possibly bad) hall connectors to the controller, easiest way is to poke a pin through the insulation then carefully/lightly touch your soldering iron on the hole or seal it again with some silicone, if you want.
Rob

 

[Bluefang]

Checked everything, rewired everything, new controller, only thing i have not been able to test is to see if one of the coils has a problem by running all 3 on the same oscilloscope. So i have given up on this motor as it will cost $100 to get tested and a rewind would be ~$400.....so i just bought a new 9C kit and the bike is back up and running even better then before, now for sale so i can build another one This time RC motored with chain drive using the gears

 

[Hyena]

Just before you abandon the project, try taking the stator back out and swapping it around.
icecube mentioned this in another thread as causing issues and might just be whats causing your problems too.

I've removed a heap of stators and never payed attention to the orientation and never had an issue but maybe I always fluked it going back in the same way.

 

[oldhaq]

Thats a good point, the first gm hub i got had shorter magnets and only works with the stator one way, as the halls arent near the magnets the other way round.

 

[Bluefang]

well i will certainly try that at a later stage in a few weeks, will be interesting if it works again. I will post when i try it if that was the problem.