Terra Trike Tour 2 - budget performance conversion.

[HackD]

I have rear suspension with 26" wheel, it's great. Would like front suspension, don't know how much. Catrikes have a front suspension with small travel. Maybe great for roads. The others with longer travel seem great for off roads. The talk seems that it hurts steering. So I don't really know. Wish I had a chance to try them out?

Catrike? You might just be in luck - i ran into this in my Browsing, tonight..

http://kmxsuspension.epizy.com/Catrike_Suspension.html

 

[ZeroEm]

Was thinking this

 

[HackD]

Yep.. link i showed you, appears to be a long-travel version by 3rd Party manufacturer.

 

[ZeroEm]

I thought about a steering dampener at one time. Now I have my steering set don't need it. Most of the suspension kits recommend them. Makes me wonder if they drive that bad. I need to look up that link here. We have a member that makes front suspension kits for KMX trikes. If you read his thread he talks about the steering after the kit was installed. Unable to drive fast and put a dampener on.

 

[HackD]

I thought about a steering dampener at one time. Now I have my steering set don't need it. Most of the suspension kits recommend them. Makes me wonder if they drive that bad. I need to look up that link here. We have a member that makes front suspension kits for KMX trikes. If you read his thread he talks about the steering after the kit was installed. Unable to drive fast and put a dampener on.

Bump steer with suspension is definitely a potential issue - partially one of design, as you indicate. Other factor is task purpose for the Trike. You need to either specialize to task demands, or compromise to meet variety of tasks demanded of it.. I'm demanding too much, of the present design.

Off-road capability, does not necessarily translate to high-speed stability, and vice versa. Gotta compromise/adapt, or build in adjustability into the design.

I do have a bit of experience with working with the black Arts and Sciences of Suspension, in a previous unconventional layout vehicle.. a heavyweight sports sidecar rig, with suspension/wheelset setup designed by myself for the front end and sidecar. It's going back a few years now, but i have been down this road of experimentation before. It was a big leap into the unknown. Not tooting my own horn or anything (ok, a bit) but a suspension setup for a recumbent trike is at least a bit more conventional, and better predictable results if designed/fabricated right.. i think i'm up to that challenge.



I had the need for a Dampner on this much larger, much heavier vehicle which involved asymmetrical handling as a feature, not a bug - and i coupled it with an asymmetric sway bar design. to keep the whole thing flat, stable and non-twitchy going over bumps at high speed (straight or cornering), with a very sensitive responsive steering setup.

In that aspect for a Trike with suspension, a simplistic sway-bar linkage may also be looked into. I am frankly surprised i haven't seen it being used/experimented on, in my google image browsing for ideas - the only issue with a Trike that i can see, is overall loss of ground clearance on a conventional frame design. In my opinion it might be an easy solution to implement into a front end suspension design for a trike, and would also have some anti-flip properties in terms of handling of a Trike (IMHO) with suspension.. would reduce sudden CofG induced suspension compression with large steering inputs, and potentially on the fly adjustable/detachable (ie off-road) in terms of overall stiffness per given conditions. A variation of a sway-bar is being used on some of the leaning trike front ends, but that's a part of the design of a leaning trike, itself.

Anyway, i ramble on... certainly something needing to be further explored, as far as my ambition goes in terms of a better frame setup, should i go that route.

 

[ZeroEm]

by HackD » Aug 28 2021 12:41pm

ZeroEm wrote: ↑Aug 28 2021 12:24am
I thought about a steering dampener at one time. Now I have my steering set don't need it. Most of the suspension kits recommend them. Makes me wonder if they drive that bad. I need to look up that link here. We have a member that makes front suspension kits for KMX trikes. If you read his thread he talks about the steering after the kit was installed. Unable to drive fast and put a dampener on.

Bump steer with suspension is definitely a potential issue - partially one of design, as you indicate. Other factor is task purpose for the Trike. You need to either specialize to task demands, or compromise to meet variety of tasks demanded of it.. I'm demanding too much, of the present design.

Off-road capability, does not necessarily translate to high-speed stability, and vice versa. Gotta compromise/adapt, or build in adjustability into the design.

I do have a bit of experience with working with the black Arts and Sciences of Suspension, in a previous unconventional layout vehicle.. a heavyweight sports sidecar rig, with suspension/wheelset setup designed by myself for the front end and sidecar. It's going back a few years now, but i have been down this road of experimentation before. It was a big leap into the unknown. Not tooting my own horn or anything (ok, a bit) but a suspension setup for a recumbent trike is at least a bit more conventional, and better predictable results if designed/fabricated right.. i think i'm up to that challenge.

I had the need for a Dampner on this much larger, much heavier vehicle which involved asymmetrical handling as a feature, not a bug - and i coupled it with an asymmetric sway bar design. to keep the whole thing flat, stable and non-twitchy going over bumps at high speed (straight or cornering), with a very sensitive responsive steering setup.

In that aspect for a Trike with suspension, a simplistic sway-bar linkage may also be looked into. I am frankly surprised i haven't seen it being used/experimented on, in my google image browsing for ideas - the only issue with a Trike that i can see, is overall loss of ground clearance on a conventional frame design. In my opinion it might be an easy solution to implement into a front end suspension design for a trike, and would also have some anti-flip properties in terms of handling of a Trike (IMHO) with suspension.. would reduce sudden CofG induced suspension compression with large steering inputs, and potentially on the fly adjustable/detachable (ie off-road) in terms of overall stiffness per given conditions. A variation of a sway-bar is being used on some of the leaning trike front ends, but that's a part of the design of a leaning trike, itself.

Anyway, i ramble on... certainly something needing to be further explored, as far as my ambition goes in terms of a better frame setup, should i go that route.

Well, ramble on you have my ear!

My early 20's I tried to set my front tires after working on the car. Started eating them off. So took it down to the front end guy in town. The next front end I have touched is my trike. :lol:

I hear a lot of complaints about trike steering. Then I see people making front suspension with no upgrades to the steering itself.
I figure they must drive like crap. I would like front suspension with no trade offs. I don't need more ground clearance than is necessary. I like low center of gravity.

Don't like riding with cars, sometimes I drive with them turning left and get enough speed I start experiencing understeer thru the corner. It's my skinny tires (20x35 @80-100psi) scrubbing. Will go back to wider tires for traction but don't want to flip it in a corner with cars.

I will follow any threads that improve a trikes handling. Direct steer takes some practice grant you. I don't want to go 40-50 mph.
Would like to have suspension and drive around thirty without being stressed.

I have never wrecked over steering issues. Big pot holes make you wonder why the wheel is still on. Have hit sand in the road at speed with the rear fish tailing, that was exciting.

 

[HackD]

Well, ramble on you have my ear!

My early 20's I tried to set my front tires after working on the car. Started eating them off. So took it down to the front end guy in town. The next front end I have touched is my trike. :lol:

I hear a lot of complaints about trike steering. Then I see people making front suspension with no upgrades to the steering itself.
I figure they must drive like crap. I would like front suspension with no trade offs. I don't need more ground clearance than is necessary. I like low center of gravity.

Don't like riding with cars, sometimes I drive with them turning left and get enough speed I start experiencing understeer thru the corner. It's my skinny tires (20x35 @80-100psi) scrubbing. Will go back to wider tires for traction but don't want to flip it in a corner with cars.

I will follow any threads that improve a trikes handling. Direct steer takes some practice grant you. I don't want to go 40-50 mph.
Would like to have suspension and drive around thirty without being stressed.

I have never wrecked over steering issues. Big pot holes make you wonder why the wheel is still on. Have hit sand in the road at speed with the rear fish tailing, that was exciting.

I don't actually have complaints about my Terratrike's steering methodology.. it's indirect tiller steer on the frame, in effect, with appropriate steering linkages. It's precise enough, if a touch twitchy - again, something an adjustable dampner would greatly assist with. This Trike handles as a SWB trike would be expected to handle. Putting on the 20x2.15 wide tires assisted with cornering grip in a major way given the terrain/varied surfaces i throw at it, IMHO.

I like low also, but, again in interests of design, this'll need to be a Swiss Army Knife Approach to versatility, given my demand for variety of surfaces.

I've had the fish-tail scenario, transiting from gravel to pavement at a relatively low speed, coinciding with release of brake and sudden regaining of traction. Good thing it was at low speed.

 

[ZeroEm]

Glad this is your thread. :lol:

My trike is just what I need for the paved bike greenways (<=15mph) that it spends most of its time on. I don't have a trailer to haul it to destinations so then I ride with cars (28mph). Not my favorite thing below line of site. My trike is Performer JC-26-X, did not expect it to hold up. No issues so far. It's all aluminum except for the Chrome Moly rear suspension fork. It was only $1600 new, the price keeps creeping up, $2350 now.

I live on the edge of the city so open road riding has it's appeal. Planning on building a LWB recumbent bike out of a tandem (rated at 450lbs). A long trike with suspension would do good also. My biggest issue is weight. I'm 6'2" 270lbs, want 60lbs of battery plus panniers with stuff you think you need but never use.

I like to try different things. Have it in the back of my head, longer with bigger wheels vs suspension with small wheels. So you build a good handling suspension and i'm in.

 

[nicobie]

I admire your fab skills using such basic tools. I wonder what your projects would look like if you mastered a tig. and had the room for a build table/bench.

Good job on such clean builds!

 

[HackD]

I admire your fab skills using such basic tools. I wonder what your projects would look like if you mastered a tig. and had the room for a build table/bench.

Good job on such clean builds!

Thank you for that compliment. Oddly, the last time i was around welding equipment was in my High School Dayz, over 30 years ago.

I have been considering picking up a TIG setup. I've got a huge back-log of projects that would benefit, and no more runs to the machine shop to get welding done, in the times that i have needed welding done.

 

[nicobie]

If you won't need to weld aluminum then a MIG is cheap and easy to learn. A 120v one welds 3/16" steel easy. A guy can build a lot of stuff using only 3/16' stock.

 

[HackD]

If you won't need to weld aluminum then a MIG is cheap and easy to learn. A 120v one welds 3/16" steel easy. A guy can build a lot of stuff using only 3/16' stock.

I'm of the School of 'Go Big, or Go Home'.

So far, what's held me back, is the expense of retrofitting my townhouse for a 240v circuit. That's going to likely be more expensive than any TIG setup, given existing wiring deficiencies i've identified so far...

I've been working with Aluminum a lot, as of late. A lot easier to work with, given my relatively crude metal working tools/methodology on hand.

 

[nicobie]

In your case you might try a 3d printer using a carbon fibre/nylon filament. You can get one ready to print it for $400.

https://creality3d.shop/products/creality3dcr-6-se-3d-printer?gclid=Cj0KCQjwg7KJBhDyARIsAHrAXaGSWUsLYCQNAu3I2RvG9QtIl0V2s-XuZPR2RMKeXvIwV7fZh9HQUvsaAn3IEALw_wcB

I'm having a blast learning.

 

[HackD]

In your case you might try a 3d printer using a carbon fibre/nylon filament. You can get one ready to print it for $400.

https://creality3d.shop/products/creality3dcr-6-se-3d-printer?gclid=Cj0KCQjwg7KJBhDyARIsAHrAXaGSWUsLYCQNAu3I2RvG9QtIl0V2s-XuZPR2RMKeXvIwV7fZh9HQUvsaAn3IEALw_wcB

I'm having a blast learning.

I picked up a good 3D printer last Winter, to feed my Star Trek miniatures addiction.. great fun.

Stein Trikes has CAD files up, of one of Robert Stein's earlier suspended models - gives me all the dimensions that i need to work with!

https://grabcad.com/library/steintrikes-mungo-recumbent-trike

 

[HackD]

Glad this is your thread. :lol:

I've had some further thoughts to add to the Thread..

My trike is just what I need for the paved bike greenways (<=15mph) that it spends most of its time on. I don't have a trailer to haul it to destinations so then I ride with cars (28mph). Not my favorite thing below line of site. My trike is Performer JC-26-X, did not expect it to hold up. No issues so far. It's all aluminum except for the Chrome Moly rear suspension fork. It was only $1600 new, the price keeps creeping up, $2350 now.

I live on the edge of the city so open road riding has it's appeal. Planning on building a LWB recumbent bike out of a tandem (rated at 450lbs). A long trike with suspension would do good also. My biggest issue is weight. I'm 6'2" 270lbs, want 60lbs of battery plus panniers with stuff you think you need but never use.

At this stage of the game, if i was just keeping to be greenways/paved paths, i'd be A-OK. Indeed, i'm now well over the safety line of safe limitations for the basic TerraTrike platform, in exploring my 'new Horizons'. It's become clear after well over 2,000km of seat time so far, that i'd be best to leave the current setup well enough alone, for current use or to pass on to a relative (maybe), and limit it to those greenways/paved paths. No further mods, no further changes in an effort to adapt to unreasonable demands i'm making of it.

I'm also currently leaning in your direction in terms of longer distance rides now. I also need that Versatility. I've done a few longish rides now, in the 50-60km afternoon trip territory involving a mix of terrain ranging from rutted Jeep Trails, double-tracks, on/offroad hill climbs, Rail Trails, urban street use etc.. I've come to know what the setup feels like with a day-pack loading. I do have the desired range with the current setup (~60km for one battery, which means i've got potential of ~160km on the three packs i have on hand).. which exceeds personal tolerance now, or going into the future. I do need to go 'off-road' to make some connections to those greenway/paved paths. Loaded down, this SWB Terratrike can be a bit twitchy on the bumps, also.

I like to try different things. Have it in the back of my head, longer with bigger wheels vs suspension with small wheels. So you build a good handling suspension and i'm in.

Here, also.

I've pretty much abandoned the idea of modifying the TerraTrike further, and am already starting to Squirrel away components for a complete new build. I've been inspired by several other builds in seeing some very creative engineering approaches for handi-trikes, para-trikes, no-weld builds, etc. I'm ideally aiming for a 3kw, full suspension build along the lines of one of the higher end Trikes on the market. I've got a whole winter to scheme, plot, and hoard away parts... another Project has priority, on the list to complete, but the build might get a start before winter is over with.

 

[ZeroEm]

I'm at a cross roads. My tandem has not show up, guessing it's in one of the container ships dock offshore. The longer I wait the more i'm changing my mind. Still working on the parts. Need to lace my motor in the 24" rear wheel and going to build a 3kw batter to the voltage that will get me around 28mph/45kph top speed. Just need a frame. Wanting between LWR and Low Racer. Need to be reclined and wanted feet behind a large front wheel. That would make a crazy long bike so thinking on all of it.

 

[markz]

Never seen a person do such a thing, country flag on a pole attached to a bike/trike.
My first guess would be in BC, and if pushed, I'd say Okanagan, pushed even more I would say Vernon not Penticton.

20211002_165950[1].jpg

 

[HackD]

Never seen a person do such a thing, country flag on a pole attached to a bike/trike.
My first guess would be in BC, and if pushed, I'd say Okanagan, pushed even more I would say Vernon not Penticton.

<Channeling Alex Trebek> Survey Says.. Bzzzzt! Wrong!

Southern Ontario, along the Hamilton inner Harbor Shoreline at Bayfront Park. Camera Icon is where photo was taken. This was in the middle of a 60km day, a few weeks back.



The illuminated flagpole is certainly very effective for visibility, night or day. This photo is a dusk shot. The eTrike is so quiet, the loudest thing is the snapping of the flag in the wind stream - good for audibly alerting Pedestrians to my approach from behind, on shared pathways. 5' Jeep Clearance flagpole. Got the idea when i saw one on an Outrider 422 Alpha. IMHO, my implementation is a touch more refined and tucked into the profile of the trike. I'm all about visibility, and somewhat Paranoid about it, given my 30 years of riding motorcycles. Our National colors are so right to attract visual attention while on the move to boot, so flag is good for me.

 

[HackD]

I'm at a cross roads. My tandem has not show up, guessing it's in one of the container ships dock offshore. The longer I wait the more i'm changing my mind. Still working on the parts. Need to lace my motor in the 24" rear wheel and going to build a 3kw batter to the voltage that will get me around 28mph/45kph top speed. Just need a frame. Wanting between LWR and Low Racer. Need to be reclined and wanted feet behind a large front wheel. That would make a crazy long bike so thinking on all of it.

Yes, it certainly sounds like you are stuck behind the Global Supply Chain issue. At this point, i'm ordering only air freight packet components.. small items. Hopefully it won't be affecting the Metals market too badly, as i need to pick up my raw materials for frame/components mockup, and actual fabrication to start.

Keep in mind - the longer you go - the wider your ideal rear track needs to be for overall stability in CofG weight-shift/cornering/sudden directional steering changes - don't overdo the length, in respect to that... otherwise you could end up with a Reliant Robin on your hands..



I'm aiming for 30" hub to hub, in terms of width - same as the Terra-Trike. This seems to be the maximal width allowable to get into restricted access trails in these parts, partially blocked off by gating and concrete boulders. Overall length would also come into play there, if the trike is too long, and you can't make the corner around the obstacles - necessitating getting off of it, to manual shift it about and through the restriction.

 

[HackD]

Already starting to play with 'new build' ideas, using a few sets of cheap components sourced off of Aliexpress. The Spindle assembly itself is definitely just a place-holder. This is Exploratory only. I need a physical representation of a suspension setup, to wrap my head around the practicalities, scale and engineering of a proper suspension design setup for a new full suspension Recumbent Trike.

This mini-atv based setup obviously has a few drawbacks - weight, and lack of overall adjustability for Castor and Camber is apparent. However, it gives me something to eyeball, and figure out how to implement a general suspension design into my plans.

It's my Version of a Coffee Table Book..

 

[ZeroEm]

Yes and I like it. Gives me ideas. Ride a performer Trike, the front end unbolts. Once you get it figured out then I just need to make something that bolts on the trike to bolt your Arms and shock to. Then there will be a suspension kit for Performer trikes.

by HackD » Oct 26 2021 4:14pm

Already starting to play with 'new build' ideas, using a few sets of cheap components sourced off of Aliexpress. The Spindle assembly itself is definitely just a place-holder. This is Exploratory only. I need a physical representation of a suspension setup, to wrap my head around the practicalities, scale and engineering of a proper suspension design setup for a new full suspension Recumbent Trike.

This mini-atv based setup obviously has a few drawbacks - weight, and lack of overall adjustability for Castor and Camber is apparent. However, it gives me something to eyeball, and figure out how to implement a general suspension design into my plans.

It's my Version of a Coffee Table Book..

 

[ccihon]

I have a trike similar to the Performer - in fact made by the same people, and have wondered if suspension would be a retrofit - not likely for mine as I have no rear suspension, either.

I quick look at steintrikes.com could give you ideas - they have a front suspension similar to your design. It appears they offer a frame kit, but it's pricy. These trikes are steel, not aluminum, I recall. Perfect reasons to DIY.

 

[ZeroEm]

Have the rear suspension, JC-26X. front suspension would be nice!
Like the steintrikes. Could just buy one, then modify it for my needs.
Only paid $1,600 - $1,800 for my trike. A steintrike would be around $5,000 US plus shipping.
Don't think front suspension would be worth $3k. Could modify my trike cheaper.

 

[Comrade]

These torque arms sell for $42.50 each on Amazon and you got one for each side. That's big cash money ballin!

I was thinking of drawing a bracket that would do the same but look much prettier in CAD and having it laser cut from some stainless steel. There are custom cutting places online that should make a dozen brackets for the price of a pair of Grins.

ZeroEm, what was your solution for torque arms?

 

[ZeroEm]

Have two of grin's TorqArm_V4. One is pulling one way and the other pulls the opposite for regen. The one handles 3200w or 125nm of tq. Have a 1500w 7T leafmotor 72v 40a.

Don't like is they don't fit tight enough, that is why they are opposing. They have not come lose in 3yrs using regen.
Will be making my next set. Want to file to match each axel side with a forced fit or clamping type. Could taper the axel a bit and drive it on. Must be a tight fit. No play, once it moves it's over.

by Comrade » Oct 27 2021 7:53pm

These torque arms sell for $42.50 each on Amazon and you got one for each side. That's big cash money ballin!

I was thinking of drawing a bracket that would do the same but look much prettier in CAD and having it laser cut from some stainless steel. There are custom cutting places online that should make a dozen brackets for the price of a pair of Grins.

ZeroEm, what was your solution for torque arms?