The never-ending rear hub vs. mid drive up hills question

E-HP said:
Eastwood said:
Well this hill is a lot steeper than my iPhone displays. It’s impossible to walk up this hill I’ve tried even with holding the ground. With my 5.5 T winding it would not make it up this hill I could only get about halfway. Then with this 6T it powers right up it no problem. I tried this hill when I was using the MXUS 3K 5T and failed. I guess so my point is without the proper winding a hub motor off road is no Bueno. With the right winding and mods a hub motor does well off road. By the way I had the controller set at around 8 kW going up that hill. I wasn’t quite at full throttle as I try to keep the wheel spin to a minimum with electric.
I should have recorded the $600 hill climb as that hill is an absolute monster. I pretty much ride on the back wheel going up the hill because it’s so steep lol. I plan on riding today and I’ll try to record the famous $600 hill climb lol

Do the hill at 5mph when you take the video, no faster, and you've proven your point. You can go straight, or zig zag up, your choice.

OK I’ll test it today and try to keep the speed under 5 mph. I’m about to head toward my local Enduro trail soon so I’ll post a video later. I just added F/F and hubsinks to the motor this morning so hopefully it’ll run cooler today 8)
 
Interesting about the low geared motor. I missed that one, while enjoying a 120 mph bmw touring motorcycle. 11 to 1 gearing sounds cool. The idea I have had for years is just a bigger heavier larger diameter geared motor. This would mean it contains more weight in copper, as well as a low ratio. Pedicab front motor was the app I had in mind.

For sure, Big DD motors with huge copper go up very steep hills quite nicely, and fast enough to not overheat very quick. Never melted one of those, and rode them up 15 degree grades. Degrees, not percent. Motor did not give up, I just wheelie off the bike at about 20 degree slope.
 
BalorNG said:
Nothing you cannot replicate on a much cheaper bike, you simply want to invest into a better controller - which is still a small fraction of that 8k$.
A proper torque *sensor* control (pedalling torque multiplication) is more complex, I give you that, and I'm not even sure that is desirable when you want to maximise traction - human power is highly pulsatile... likely there is some smoothing going on, but I've never ridden any of those 8K+ bikes to be fair.

There are definitely hills that I've been able to ride up pedaling (younger of course), that I can't go up with a motor without flipping over backwards, even with pretty good throttle control. I think torque falls below traction and balance when it comes to steep hills.
 
One of my bikes runs a BBSHD with a 30t chain ring and a modified rear cassette. The cassette has a few gears relocated between the largest gear and the hub to shift everything over to improve the chain line. The stop on the shifter was adjusted to keep the chain from going on those. I'm running a 10sp chain and have 7 gears on the 10 speed cassette available. I ride mostly steep fire roads, with many spots over 15%. My first chain went about 2,000 miles before I replaced it, but it was still pretty good. The 30t chain ring is doing fine.

You hear all these stories about chains breaking and wearing out fast with mid drives, but I haven't seen it. I max out around 1,500W. For climbing anything over about 10%, I highly recommend the mid drive setup.

My biggest issue has been the brakes. I was going through pads and rotors very quickly until I discovered Jagwire organic pads.
 
amberwolf said:
There is actually a "low geared" hubmotor, in that it has a double gear reduction inside, for 11:1 reduction

How about Grin SX1 front and SX2 rear?

Moar power

 
Very educational thread,
schisophenic

and

pulsatile

both new to me [emoji16]

that slow speed steep climb is what I'm looking for, just at 400+ lb cargo load.

I figure multiple motors is the way to go, maybe a trike

The "windings Kv makes no difference" argument always ends up sounding theoretical to me.

FOC type controllers that can feed huge amps at low voltage seem to be unobtainium or not programmable by available humans.
 
Here we go, I would say the speed was under 5 mph and I also took the steeper line instead of cutting across the top. Climbed that hill about 5 times at a slow speed and the motor was barely warm. Was able to turn the DC amps down to 100 instead of 120amps while still making the climb.
So 100a DC and 350 phase amps.
https://youtube.com/shorts/V2MhhxfOR4A?feature=share

Edit: I meant to upload this video. You be the judge on the speed, I think both of them are right under 5 mph.
https://youtube.com/shorts/qPDXzV77G6A?feature=share
 
Here’s another hill climb. This is the “$600 hill climb” it’s a part of my local trails it’s been there for maybe 20 years.
This one’s definitely steeper than the first one
And again it’s super hard to see how steep this hill is from my iPhone.
https://youtu.be/loU1OO9QRAQ
 

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Eastwood said:
BalorNG said:
Technical climbing is all about *torque*, not power. You cannot have more torque (either peak or sustained) from a motor going faster or slower winds, period, this is entirely property of a correct controller/battery. Ok, there might be some differences, but they are miniscule... ok, long and thin phase cables can be a bottleneck on truly fast winds combined with very high phase currents, having a controller basically built into the motor is a nice feature.

When it comes to torque, mechanical reduction is king. When it comes to climbing steep stuff at slow speed, middrives are a great. When comes to 'riding around' you have a schisophenic system that first reduces engine RPMs to human cranking RPMs, than INCREASES RPMs to wheel rpms, with extra losses and drivetrain wear along the way.

Wait you’re trying to say you can’t have more torque from a slow wind motor?? That’s the entire point of getting a slow wind motor so you have higher torque output with less current. I hear this nonsense regurgitated over and over on this form and that’s why people discontinue hub motors off road because they don’t buy right winding. So if you buy a fast wind motor you have to use more current which would overheat your motor therefore would be useless off-road. You say The difference is miniscule, could not be further from the truth. That same hill with the QS205 but in the 5.5T winding cannot get up the hill at the same exact power settings. With the 6T at the same exact power settings, same battery same controller it flys up the hill. It’s all about the winding for off road use.

Edit: and to be fair my older motor which was a 5.5 T was laced and a 19” rim. This new motor which is a 6T is lace in a 16” rim so it has an mechanical advantage is well with the smaller wheel diameter.


OK but the goal for me personally is not to speed up the hill at 20 mph with 2000 watts, it's to climb slower at maybe 4-8 mph. But...and this is a huge but...I know for sure I can't do that with 250W. I for sure need at least 350-400W. Optimally more like 600W and this is where a mid-drive's torque and chain /drivetrain stress really starts to matter. Because yes, on a fire road you can go up a 10% incline with a 1000W mid-drive, but singletrack is infinitely more technical for obstacles and loose dirt/rocks. 1000W is almost for sure going to spin out the rear wheel on steep singletrack, so there needs to be a balance between power/torque and what the rear tire can handle for the constantly varying terrain. This, IMO is where a geared hub drive ironically comes into its own, because it's a constant source of power/torque that can be increased or reduced with a quick push of a button, not the dreaded gear shift change when climbing with a mid-drive.
 
You are just going to have to test different things out and see what you like the best, smaller wheel, wider tire, downhill stuff or motorcycle stuff, how much power do I really need.... these are the hard choices ebikers like us have to make.
 
I have taken a ride on a 15kV, 13kV, and a 9kV hub motor. Multiples. From 100 phase amp to upwards of 280pA.

The 9kV hub motor in a 19" had the most tork, o course. Just take off. Off the line, get moving, first three feet of travel. You could feel it. Off the line only. That had only 100 pA. It would climb all day slow-ish. Would lose traction and start to throw rocks on steep trails.

Once you have motion.. the higher kV is great. You could not hit the 9kv from a standstill on pavement without going wheelie... but with the higher kV motors you can.. They wont wheelie from a standstill unless you really try.... The 15kV and 12kV motors had noticeably less tork off the line than these, in both the 17" and 19" wheels I rode. However, once moving, this is where it ended and they started to pull. The higher kV motors also had bigger controllers. Maybe this is it.. but.. Next to stalling the motor, the smallest and lowest kv motor pulled away easiest. Uphill to the point you have to walk it.. It would just go.

We all know this though. It is interesting to see.. The 13kV motor I have is big and strong.. and has a slightly less tork on 150pA on the wheel than the smaller lower power 100pA, 9kV...Only ( less) off the line from a stalled condition... but rips through the whole rest of the RPM range with noticeably more power. Its all about something to do with the stall, and the ability for the motor to get moving I think?


Still, all that said, a BBS02 in first gear can climb like a goat. Literally, like a goat, if you can ride it.. and will.. Just go right up that hill if geared to make it and you have the skill and traction to keep moving and to stay on the bike.... That high rpm reduction. I climbed things on my BBS02 that I never thought I would be able to climb on a bicycle. Right up it.
 
richj8990 said:
So the plan is to get either a 500W Bafang mid-drive or a 500W Bafang geared rear hub drive. This would be mostly for offroad including steep climbs. Now...before you immediately say "Buy a mid-drive for that, silly", let's talk about some issues with mid-drives:

I would say for off-road use working with 500 W-ish I would definitely get the mid drive. I don’t think 500 W geared hub motor is going to give you what you’re looking for for off road. When it comes to hub motors for Offroad I believe the direct drive hub motor to be superior for off-road but you have to push a lot more power which requires bigger battery more heat etc. So if you’re looking for something to climb hills at low power mid drive is definitely your best bet. I wouldn’t worry too much about snapping a chain you can always carry an extra MasterLink and just upgrade to the strongest chain you can get.
 
Having done a variety of them, plus single-motor mids and hubs, the king is a 2wd mid in the back with a hub motor in front. Run both on pedal assist and keep the motor power in front low. If you don't, if the wheel pops up off of a root and comes down pointing in a different direction, your front wheel goes thataway unless the power is relatively low and easy to overcome. I've found about 250w of output is the sweet spot in terms of gaining lowwww speed uphill traction without consequences. In really deep beach sand steeply angled (rip tide), the 2wd can go places no single-motor bike can go no matter how much power comes out the back. The front motor keeps the front wheel from submerging. Again on pedal assist although in the really deep stuff throttle has to be there to get you out of the occasional jam.
pxl_20210929_013039030-e1633137296875.jpg


BTW That brick on the front rack is an onboard charger not a controller. No land access in between my start and endpoints so I have to recharge at an outlet at the toilets @ my destination or I don't make it home. Lots of power needed for fighting thru sand for miles.

All the stuff about chain wear etc. happens to plenty of builders but isn't necessary if they build with the right parts and ride smart. Microshift Advent has a steel 11-46T cluster that is 1-piece and hardened steel with no spiders. Sunrace CSMS7 is all-steel 11 spd 11-42. 11 spd btw is fine. No chain issues and I just crossed 1800 miles on one of mine yesterday. Narrower chain may equate to less leverage to work the side plates apart. This one is 11 spd and look at the length on that chain. BTW it now has a 35T Lekkie on the front. Do-able because of that long reach back allowing me to put up with the lack of offset - without any significant level of wear. This bike is now mostly a wood-gatherer in forested areas with no trails. Just overland. My other 11s is a 2wd cargo bike that usually carries 100+ lbs in addition to my fat ass. No issues.

pxl_20210529_201420843-e1627937279764.jpg


A 2wd bike is a lot of extra work, and there's a right and wrong way to do them. But mostly it is a shitload of work to get the same end result as a single-motor: 1 bicycle. Don't undertake the project unless you're up for one. But if you go there its a total kick in the ass. BTW I did and write up a dual hub bike written up at that same site. I built the mid+hub because of the inability of twin geared hubs to live long and prosper in the steep hills where I live.

https://talesontwowheels.com/2021/03/20/dual-motor-awd-electric-bikes-the-good-and-bad/

One motor in the middle should be fine. Do a Lekkie motor cover or take a file to the stock one and you can fit a 40T ring on with 20mm of inboard offset like I have here.

pxl_20220418_225028195.jpg
 
MoneyPit said:
One motor in the middle should be fine. Do a Lekkie motor cover or take a file to the stock one and you can fit a 40T ring on with 20mm of inboard offset like I have here.

pxl_20220418_225028195.jpg

Great photo!
 
Given proper torque control of the motor (limiting phase amps, not just system voltage and preferably programmable throttle), whether you have middrive, DD or geared hub is irrelevant... you want to invest into a better controller.

If that were true, why are essentially 100% of the brand-name e-mountain bikes out there mid-drives. The placement of the motor is not 'irrelevant' to them; they have all, to the last company, chosen a mid-drive for their e-mountain bikes. Every single one of them. Some of the off brands have rear hub drives for mountain biking. But you can't argue that the mountain bike industry has not chosen mid-drives for offroading. Anyone making complete rear hub drive mountain bikes is not part of the mainstream industry. That's great that they offer an alternative option, but they are not a mainstream mountain bike manufacturer.

Now if you think they are wrong for all doing mid-drives and that a rear hub drive is better for a higher-end $5000+ USD bike, you can certainly list all of the reasons and maybe some of their sales reps will consider those reasons.
 
Sort of, but an 8kW DD motor has tons of torque, but a technical climb is about controlled torque combined with traction, not just how much torque you have, and that's where the characteristics of electric motors is a con. I think even my smaller DD motor has too much torque and not enough control or traction for the job. Specifically, too much uncontrollable torque when going slow. Even a motocross bike would have difficulty on a steep narrow trail with switchbacks, but at least you can finnesse the clutch and throttle a little easier. Those trails are on grades too steep to climb up on any vehicle wthout flipping over, so the trails zig zag up; but you could climb them on foot, without 8kW. So steeper than this, but with loose dirt, rocks, and trees and shrubs to negotiate around.

Private video. You need to unlock it.
 
Did my first real climbs today with the 450W mid-drive conversion. Did not make it up the timed 12% grade as fast as the best time with the hub drive, but the fire road was not in as good shape, and I'm still using kid gloves on this motor; don't trust the drive chain and pulley tensioner enough to do wide open throttle up offroad inclines right now. If I had more confidence / experience in the motor and setup I think it would have been about the same time. That was on a fire road.

On singletrack climbs, I really noticed a difference with the mid-drive. Not only did it climb better, and can climb at more varied speeds in the same gear, it's also easier physically to pedal (under throttle power). Less tired climbing steep stuff, less struggle than a hub drive. And it seems to be impervious to whether I'm going 3 mph or 6 mph up something steep, it just adapts. With the 500W hub drive I really need to keep it in the right gear and pedal hard to keep going up the hill. Oddly enough, right? Even though the hub drive is disconnected from the gearing, the gearing is way more crucial up steep offroad inclines. On the mid-drive I could select a few different gears and claw my way up without issue. Only thing stopping me on 20% singletrack grades were the obstacles of large erosion ruts and tall embedded rocks. Otherwise I could climb till the battery died and if it's not hot outside, would not even get tired! Climbing steep stuff with a hub drive can be exhausting. Still learning this mid-drive. I'll figure it out, I'll break in the components, get a better tensioner (in the mail), I'll learn how to keep the front wheel planted on uphill switchbacks, that will all come with time. Rome wasn't built in a day.
 
If that were true, why are essentially 100% of the brand-name e-mountain bikes out there mid-drives. The placement of the motor is not 'irrelevant' to them; they have all, to the last company, chosen a mid-drive for their e-mountain bikes. Every single one of them. Some of the off brands have rear hub drives for mountain biking. But you can't argue that the mountain bike industry has not chosen mid-drives for offroading. Anyone making complete rear hub drive mountain bikes is not part of the mainstream industry. That's great that they offer an alternative option, but they are not a mainstream mountain bike manufacturer.

Now if you think they are wrong for all doing mid-drives and that a rear hub drive is better for a higher-end $5000+ USD bike, you can certainly list all of the reasons and maybe some of their sales reps will consider those reasons.


You've taken my post out of context, please don't do that.
My point about low speed and highly controlable *torque*, which is a properly of torque control throttle.
High $$$ ebikes come with that by default (or pedal torque sensor, still torque control though), cheap hub motor conversions - very rarely.

Here is the relevant part on my judgement on 'mid-drives vs hub motors':

When it comes to torque, mechanical reduction is king. When it comes to climbing steep stuff at slow speed, middrives are a great. When comes to 'riding around' you have a schisophenic system that first reduces engine RPMs to human cranking RPMs, than INCREASES RPMs to wheel rpms, with extra losses and drivetrain wear along the way.

Note that middrives have other things going for them - like centralized weight (important for handling!), less unspung weight (suspension) and easier wheel removal.

All are mostly irrelevant for a non-technical rider with exception of wheel removal perhaps...
 
Get the mid drive and learn how to maintain the gears by re-greasing.

All geared motors including geared hub motors need periodic regreasing especially a person using it in the dirt. Even the cyclone geared motor needs regreasing every 3000 km according to the manufacturer (I personally emailed the manufacturer to get this information.)

P.S. Be careful about accepting advice from people in the business of reselling parts. Just because they are in the business doesn't mean they can't have conflict of interest with giving you the proper information (like re-greasing geared motors at the manufacturer specified intervals).
 
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With the 500W hub drive I really need to keep it in the right gear and pedal hard to keep going up the hill. Oddly enough, right?
Yep, that is because (as you know) it being a SPM design gear hub motor it has a relatively narrow torque band.

What we need are geared hub motors using a IPM design:


P.S. Would be very interesting to compare a locked clutch IPM geared hub using regen to a mid drive up and down various slopes. One thing obviously being total energy usage.
 
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Yep, that is because (as you know) it being a SPM design gear hub motor it has a relatively narrow torque band.

What we need are geared hub motors using a IPM design:


P.S. Would be very interesting to compare a locked clutch IPM geared hub using regen to a mid drive up and down various slopes. One thing obviously being total energy usage.

Why dont you make the initiative? Compare!
 
Be great! But they don't come low geared. You can find ones wound slow, but not low geared.

So in extreme loads, big guy, long hill, steeper than 8%,, the motor melts. Big meaning 300 pound dude or more.

But NOT a problem if the guy is not so big, and pedals briskly, in low gear of the chain.

I've been wishing they would make a big diameter planetary geared motor that WAS a lot lower geared. Then you could fill up your panniers and go climb the rocky mountains.

You can though, gear down the motor on a street bike, by using a 20 inch wheel View attachment 317911View attachment 317912 a street bike,



The Grin bafang wheelbarrow motor has super low gearing:



(It is composed of a small bafang geared hub motor, the G310/311 with 11:1 gear reduction, coupled to an additional planetary gear reduction of almost 3:1 and thus providing a total gear reduction of around 30:1.)


Of course, it lacks a hub housing with flanges for mounting spokes....thus making it not possible to mount a bicycle rim and tire.

But assuming an appropriate hub housing could be sourced (or perhaps spoke holes added to the existing housing) it should work.

P.S. This would be even more interesting if the existing SPM design G310/311 were converted by Bafang to IPM. This to extend the RPM range at which the motor works.

See below to how an IPM arrangement would benefit a small motor like the G310/311:




Perhaps the biggest advantage of IPM designs, one that gives them an edge in vehicle applications like traction motors, is the high-speed performance. The power versus speed curve for SPM motors is roughly hyperbolic, rising to a region of quasi-constant power over a narrow speed range, then falling off.



IPM motors, in contrast, provide a much broader region of more or less consistent torque. Using a technique called field weakening, designers can apply current to modify performance. As speed rises, the permanent magnets and motor generate highers voltage. At very high speeds, the back EMF of the motor times the speed can exceed the voltage of the battery, which limits drive current, and torque. Field weakening essentially involves tuning the magnetic field of the stator to partially oppose the effect of the permanent magnets. The process involves a control scheme known as direct (D) and quadrature (Q) axis current control. The D-axis runs through the center of the rotor pole while the Q-axis lies between two adjacent rotor poles in the center. “By breaking the stator vector into two vectors, and applying one current to the quadrature axis and one to the direct axis, they control the current phase angle between them, which allows much wider constant power control," explains motor designer and IEEE fellow Jim Hendershot, co-author of Permanent Magnet Brushless Motors and Generator Design.



For vehicle applications, the technique provides big benefits compared to SPM motors. “The IPM configuration allows more control over the magnetization of the magnetic circuit," says Hendershot.



That's not to say that field weakening isn't possible with SPM designs, as well, but because of the size of the air gap, the technique requires far higher currents. “Because of the current limit of the inverter on thermal limitations of the motor, you can't field weaken it enough to produce torque at high speeds," says Fulton.



At low speeds, SPM motor and an IPM motor of the same size can generally produce about the same amount torque, or the SPM design may even produce a bit more up until they reach the corner point RPM. At speeds higher than the corner-point RPM, torque from SPM designs drops rapidly. “If both of them have a base of 3000 RPM, the SPM motor will probably have zero torque at 5000 RPM whereas the IPM could continue on to 10,000 or 12,000 RPM," says Fulton. The behavior makes IPM motors a good fit for traction motor applications, which tend to demand high torque over a broad speed range. “With IPM designs you get the best of both worlds—you can get very good acceleration at low speeds and then run at very high speeds while at almost the same power level.”





A type of motor that has a rotor embedded with permanent magnets is called the IPM (interior permanent magnet) type. Compared with the SPM (surface permanent magnet), this type of motor can reduce the risk of a magnet being peeled off by centrifugal force, and take advantage of reluctance torque. The IPM type allows various structures for embedding permanent magnets.
 

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