These (electric) bikes are for billionaires.

[81forest]

Snicker, sneer, look at all these dumb stupid heads who want to buy an off the shelf ebike, with nice industry standard components that works properly without hacking the firmware right out of the box!

We should totally shame anyone who is not willing to spend many dozens of hours figuring out how to build their own batteries!! DIY OR GO HOME LOSERS!!!11!1

:wink:

 

[LockH]

^^ Hehe... "Problem" maybe. EVWorld just reported

More than 650 brands of ebikes world wide.
• Nearly 300 brands of ebikes offered in the USA!

As more and more companies enter this market, tends to put a downward pressure on selling prices (stuff gets "cheaper") such that "store bought prices" get harder to... avoid. :wink:

 

[billvon]

Snicker, sneer, look at all these dumb stupid heads who want to buy an off the shelf ebike, with nice industry standard components that works properly without hacking the firmware right out of the box!

Huh. I've never seen any "industry standard ebike components." I'm seeing the very beginnings of them (Anderson connectors for phase connections for example) but ironically those are most often seen on homebuilt machines. The off the shelf ebikes all use custom connectors. It was a royal PITA, for example, to work with the expensive and delicate connectors that the EMS E+ bikes used for control. In addition, the EMS bikes needed a truly monstrous hack to be able to work with non-OEM batteries - as compared to a homebuilt system, which generally just needs + and - connected.

But hey, EMS was off the shelf. Which means you can at least get replacement parts for them, right? Right?

 

[81forest]

Snicker, sneer, look at all these dumb stupid heads who want to buy an off the shelf ebike, with nice industry standard components that works properly without hacking the firmware right out of the box!

Huh. I've never seen any "industry standard ebike components." I'm seeing the very beginnings of them (Anderson connectors for phase connections for example) but ironically those are most often seen on homebuilt machines. The off the shelf ebikes all use custom connectors. It was a royal PITA, for example, to work with the expensive and delicate connectors that the EMS E+ bikes used for control. In addition, the EMS bikes needed a truly monstrous hack to be able to work with non-OEM batteries - as compared to a homebuilt system, which generally just needs + and - connected.

But hey, EMS was off the shelf. Which means you can at least get replacement parts for them, right? Right?

I don’t know that there are industry standard components for ebikes, I’m talking about industry standard suspension, drivetrain, brakes, etc., instead of cutting corners on all that stuff to get the price lower. Race level bicycles already cost $5-10k, so it makes sense to me that a high end e-bike might cost $15,000. If someone wants to buy it, that’s awesome! As someone above posted, the bigger the market ($$$) gets for ebikes, the more technology gets funded and eventually that’s a win for everybody. I don’t see what’s not to like about people buying high end, expensive ebikes that work great “off the shelf”.

A local builder here in Seattle has been making boutique titanium road bikes for a few decades, and now offers a PAS system in some of his bikes. Retail is over $10,000. More power to ‘em I say! Not everyone wants to DIY, and not everyone wants Chinese no name suspension.

 

[2old]

I spent a day on the $10,000 Stromer and its very similar, but less bling, $5,000 sibling. Both were great road machines that pedaled to 30 mph easily (I realize that's not fast for the DIY crowd). and appeared to have excellent parts as well as being well-constructed. IMO, the $5,000 bike was worth the price, but I'm not much of a road riding enthusiast. Too dangerous in socal.

 

[billvon]

I don’t know that there are industry standard components for ebikes, I’m talking about industry standard suspension, drivetrain, brakes, etc., instead of cutting corners on all that stuff to get the price lower.

Right - but as always you get what you pay for. You can get an ebike from Wal-Mart for $329 and get crap components. You can get an Optibike for $13,000 and get a Rohloff hub, Fox suspension and Chris King hubs. And everything in between.

Race level bicycles already cost $5-10k, so it makes sense to me that a high end e-bike might cost $15,000. If someone wants to buy it, that’s awesome!

I've got no problem with people who want to spend that much for a bike. But a lot of the pricey ebikes I've seen have skimped on the components. I remember seeing a $4000 ebike at a shop in Portland with a Shimano Acera groupset. Really? For $4000 you couldn't even go with Alivio components?

(To your point, Acera is a very standard groupset. But it sucks.)

Above about $1500 you are paying for light weight in MTB's; there are plenty of comparisons that show you $/gram, and it goes up exponentially as you approach the mythical twenty pound bike. So for most people it's pretty silly to spend an extra $3000 to save a pound in component weight- then put a 20 pound hubmotor on it. Indeed, it's counterproductive since at those weights you are starting to trade durability for weight.

But if you have the money - AND you know what you are buying - then it's your decision.

A local builder here in Seattle has been making boutique titanium road bikes for a few decades, and now offers a PAS system in some of his bikes. Retail is over $10,000. More power to ‘em I say! Not everyone wants to DIY, and not everyone wants Chinese no name suspension.

Agreed. It's sad, though, when you buy a $10,000 bike and end up with a Chinese no name suspension and a cheap groupset.

 

[81forest]

I've got no problem with people who want to spend that much for a bike. But a lot of the pricey ebikes I've seen have skimped on the components. I remember seeing a $4000 ebike at a shop in Portland with a Shimano Acera groupset. Really? For $4000 you couldn't even go with Alivio components?

Agreed. Acera does suck. But isn't $4,000 kind of an "entry level" family/cargo/longtail ebike if your shopping at the LBS? That is generally the case here in Seattle. I don't think G&O sells many bikes for much less than that. Buyer gets the shop's reputation and expertise, a proprietary Bosch system that they don't have to understand (and maybe becomes obsolete in a few years, which absolutely does suck). Not the worst way to spend $4,000, and it's one less car on the road.

Above about $1500 you are paying for light weight in MTB's; there are plenty of comparisons that show you $/gram, and it goes up exponentially as you approach the mythical twenty pound bike. So for most people it's pretty silly to spend an extra $3000 to save a pound in component weight- then put a 20 pound hubmotor on it. Indeed, it's counterproductive since at those weights you are starting to trade durability for weight.

This may be true for cross country bikes; agreed it would make no sense to put a motor and battery on your superlite carbon xc bike. But for downhill/park bikes, all-mountain bikes, trail bikes, etc., weight is not a big factor. Not at all for a downhill bike. People that want these bikes also generally accept that they cost between five and ten grand. My 29er is a hefty girl, but it has 6 inches of travel and can be hucked off of anything, day after day after day. It is about 35 pounds. A downhill bike that is tough enough to be ridden hard at Whistler, and comes with a nice, easy to use mid drive system from an LBS is going to cost at least $10,000. And it would be the coolest thing on the mountain. Wave at your friends on the chairlift as you fly up the cat track.

 

[wturber]

A local builder here in Seattle has been making boutique titanium road bikes for a few decades, and now offers a PAS system in some of his bikes. Retail is over $10,000. More power to ‘em I say! Not everyone wants to DIY, and not everyone wants Chinese no name suspension.

Agreed. It's sad, though, when you buy a $10,000 bike and end up with a Chinese no name suspension and a cheap groupset.

Sad? But don't you always get what you pay for?!?!

 

[miro13car]

" In addition, the EMS Eplus bikes needed a truly monstrous hack to be able to work with non-OEM batteries" - bilvon wrote

Bill,
EPLUS bike to convert to any 36V battery does NOT need any "monstrous" hack.
You simply take out BMS electronics /consists of 2 boards - control and power/ from hub NMH battery ,connect any 36V battery instead of NMH , tap 2 times 5V- 6V out of new battery, plug those 2 voltages into BMS control board, for charging you can disconnect battery or instal big switch.
there is quite large thread of mine on this subject.

 

[billvon]

Sad? But don't you always get what you pay for?!?!

Well, yes - and if you wanted to I suppose you could pay $10,000 for a bike and end up with a Chinese no name suspension and a cheap groupset, if that's your thing. But that doesn't seem like a good deal to me, nor to 81forest (if what he says is true.)

That's why I tend to buy the $1000 MTB with a good set of components and add a $1500 motor/battery/controller - because then I know what I am getting. But to each their own.

 

[billvon]

EPLUS bike to convert to any 36V battery does NOT need any "monstrous" hack.
You simply take out BMS electronics /consists of 2 boards - control and power/ from hub NMH battery ,connect any 36V battery instead of NMH , tap 2 times 5V- 6V out of new battery, plug those 2 voltages into BMS control board, for charging you can disconnect battery or instal big switch.

That seems like a pretty big hack to me, and requires a "donor" battery. If you don't have the donor battery, it's an even bigger hack (a serial spoofer.) Compare that to replacing a battery on a typical component based ebike - buy the new battery, then splice or crimp on a new connector.

 

[miro13car]

I agree Bill,
for not electrical/electronic person is not so easy task.
Chances of causing shorts and destroying electronics are high.
removing/disconnecting boards from original NMH battery is especially tricky.