gothicsurf
10 mW
Are there any hub motor kits available with true torque sensing (not PAS) from anyone except Grin?
torque sensing kits
- Thread starter gothicsurf
- Start date
MadRhino
100 GW
Heinzmann
MadRhino
100 GW
MadRhino said:
Had a good look through that pdf, thanks for posting it. Still no details on prices apparent on the site. In my experience that means it's out of my price range. The fact that it's german manufactured likely confirms that.
I realise that I'm hassling you, fella, but could you suggest a torque sensing solution for a Qulbix/Risun style frame?
dogman dan
1 PW
FWIW, I have a very long history of hating PAS. Dumb pas sucks big time, and I rode motorcycles so long I just naturally take to a throttle. I still advocate for throttle when you ride like this. ( few do) Pick a gear, and a cadence in that gear. Use throttle to keep the pedal pressure you use at that cadence to your liking. You are smarter than a torque sensor, your computer in your head faster, etc. Takes a few thousand miles to master it though.
But then I rode a kit that has a user adjustable PAS. I found with some riding in each PAS setting available, I could pick one that suited me pretty good. Needed to tune both the strength, and how many rotations it took for it to start. I liked a very soft start, and then not so much strength, for pedaling in a city.
Just saying, if you have dumb pas set by an idiot, it sucks. But if you can tune it, which many kits now allow with better displays, its surprising how nice dumb pas can be. You might give it a try, before you resort to a costly setup.
But then I rode a kit that has a user adjustable PAS. I found with some riding in each PAS setting available, I could pick one that suited me pretty good. Needed to tune both the strength, and how many rotations it took for it to start. I liked a very soft start, and then not so much strength, for pedaling in a city.
Just saying, if you have dumb pas set by an idiot, it sucks. But if you can tune it, which many kits now allow with better displays, its surprising how nice dumb pas can be. You might give it a try, before you resort to a costly setup.
Hi Dogman, appreciate the reply.
Are you talking about cadence PAS or torque PAS? Fully agree on the need for a highly adjustable/configurable PAS.
People that come from a cycling background rave about the recent torque PAS systems. I'm kind of set on putting one of those into a qulbix/risun frame with a big battery for long distance, high speed, flat land commuting. The EEB frame will at least give the appearance of a secure battery enclosure if I need to lock it for a moment.
I've made a thread with the details, very interested to hear if you have any ideas:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=107705&sid=5712e155c33590a31ccbc4afc083ae27
Are you talking about cadence PAS or torque PAS? Fully agree on the need for a highly adjustable/configurable PAS.
People that come from a cycling background rave about the recent torque PAS systems. I'm kind of set on putting one of those into a qulbix/risun frame with a big battery for long distance, high speed, flat land commuting. The EEB frame will at least give the appearance of a secure battery enclosure if I need to lock it for a moment.
I've made a thread with the details, very interested to hear if you have any ideas:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=107705&sid=5712e155c33590a31ccbc4afc083ae27
MadRhino
100 GW
neutro said:
They are giving no price on Heinzmann website because they won’t sell one to you. You need to see a dealer for this and yes, they are expansive.
Torque sensors are many, few are durable, few are included in kits. No matter the one you decide to install (most of them will fit), you will have to inspect often and never ride it slack.
MadRhino said:
Do you mean never ride it with a slack chain? Would a slack chain effect the proper performance of, for example, a BB based torque sensing solution like a Sempu 84mm torque sensing BB in your opinion?
Just as an aside, as a long time lurker on the forum, I've read and appreciated the thousands of advice posts yourself and the other
long-time posters have made in reply to bull-headed noobs firing questions everywhere.
..and now I've become one of those types it seems!
Based on what I've experienced, whether cadence based or torque sensing, a LOT of whether you like it or not will be based on the software used to interface what you are asking for with what the motor actually gets.
Junk software, that is usually supplied with inexpensive controllers and bikes, will NOT leave a good impression for the rider.
The more adjustable it is, the better you're going to like it. Personal preferences can be a BIG deal! An example maybe. Some, like Dogman Dan above, like "soft start" after the crank has been turned. Some might like that crank to be turned at least once prior to power becoming available. Personally, I want my power available RIGHT NOW, as soon as I even breathe on a pedal. There's nothing worse, to me, than wondering how long that darn motor is going to take to ramp up to full power while I'm attempting to cross a busy road for instance.... Others, including many newbies, might be startled with that kind of power available.
Point is, a sensor senses motion or torque. That's the easy part. It's what happens after that that separates the men from the boys.
Junk software, that is usually supplied with inexpensive controllers and bikes, will NOT leave a good impression for the rider.
The more adjustable it is, the better you're going to like it. Personal preferences can be a BIG deal! An example maybe. Some, like Dogman Dan above, like "soft start" after the crank has been turned. Some might like that crank to be turned at least once prior to power becoming available. Personally, I want my power available RIGHT NOW, as soon as I even breathe on a pedal. There's nothing worse, to me, than wondering how long that darn motor is going to take to ramp up to full power while I'm attempting to cross a busy road for instance.... Others, including many newbies, might be startled with that kind of power available.
Point is, a sensor senses motion or torque. That's the easy part. It's what happens after that that separates the men from the boys.
MadRhino
100 GW
I was meaning the torque sensing BB itself. The torque sensor pickup and bearings must be tight. They often get loose after some time riding, so the torque sensing BB’s must be inspected regularly. Most of them wear enough to become impossible to adjust after 4-5000 km. Like I said they are many, of different quality and reliability. And, as noted previously, most of the softwares to control them are inadequate. That is why I recommend buying the best, to those who are going this route. Most PAS that I have seen are cheap stuff and not tuned properly. Try not to be one of those.neutro said:
AHicks said:
Fully agree with all your points AHicks. If you have a moment, could you take a look at my thread here and suggest a specific torque sensing PAS solution?
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=107705&sid=5712e155c33590a31ccbc4afc083ae27
MadRhino said:
I'm trying, brother! Have updated my build thread slightly, any suggestions on a specific torque sensing solution that I can order as a consumer?
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=107705&sid=5712e155c33590a31ccbc4afc083ae27
dogman dan
1 PW
I was talking about cadence pas. Ideally for me, a soft start. I dislike a hard start after a tenth of a revolution of the pedals. Somehow, popping a wheelie into a cement truck that is crossing an intersection in front of me sounds scary. When I tested a lot of bikes at interbike, and all the bikes the company I used to work for sells, I liked a soft start, after about a half revolution. I liked least, a hard start at a twitch of the pedal, and even less a hard start after a full revolution. Basically, I liked pas fine for 250w which is soft always, but for 1000w I want a fully controllable throttle.
But the bottom line was for any kind of hard start, I still wanted a throttle on the bike as well. I will NEVER like a bike with no throttle at all. I see the reason for a slow start up, for max efficiency you pedal to 10 mph, and then the motor starts pulling. Some bikes get set up that way, but more common is too hard too soon. At interbike at least, they seemed to want to sell power and speed. I wanted full control of that, by having a throttle when you need it.
I totally get it why a serious cyclist wants torque pas. But I'm old, I haven't broken a bike chain pedaling in decades. I like a constant effort at a constant cadence so I don't tire too fast and the ride can last. I get that only with a throttle. I want to vary the power, not my cadence. I pedal a high cadence, but I can't pedal hard for very long at all. But again, just with throttle once you have a few thousand miles of commute done, you can set your effort and cadence perfect for you, at ANY speed. You just have no idea how good it feels on a commute. You've been riding hard till about to puke, then backing off a hair. Try riding that same way with assist, and you will be hooked! You just don't have to quite go to the puke point on a hill, or into 35 mph wind anymore. But by varying the throttle as you ride, you get to set your cadence and effort at any speed, while torque sensing will tend to slow whenever you back off your effort. You just simply have no experience with how nice it is to ride a full hour without varying your effort level, except perhaps on your trainer.
But the bottom line was for any kind of hard start, I still wanted a throttle on the bike as well. I will NEVER like a bike with no throttle at all. I see the reason for a slow start up, for max efficiency you pedal to 10 mph, and then the motor starts pulling. Some bikes get set up that way, but more common is too hard too soon. At interbike at least, they seemed to want to sell power and speed. I wanted full control of that, by having a throttle when you need it.
I totally get it why a serious cyclist wants torque pas. But I'm old, I haven't broken a bike chain pedaling in decades. I like a constant effort at a constant cadence so I don't tire too fast and the ride can last. I get that only with a throttle. I want to vary the power, not my cadence. I pedal a high cadence, but I can't pedal hard for very long at all. But again, just with throttle once you have a few thousand miles of commute done, you can set your effort and cadence perfect for you, at ANY speed. You just have no idea how good it feels on a commute. You've been riding hard till about to puke, then backing off a hair. Try riding that same way with assist, and you will be hooked! You just don't have to quite go to the puke point on a hill, or into 35 mph wind anymore. But by varying the throttle as you ride, you get to set your cadence and effort at any speed, while torque sensing will tend to slow whenever you back off your effort. You just simply have no experience with how nice it is to ride a full hour without varying your effort level, except perhaps on your trainer.
gothicsurf
10 mW
Are there any controllers available for a hub motor conversion that can use a torque sensing throttle input signal?
Reason being is the goal of eliminating the use of a display and forgoing any on-the-fly adjustment of settings.
Reason being is the goal of eliminating the use of a display and forgoing any on-the-fly adjustment of settings.
