TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

[plpetrov]

Is "/" a "÷" ?
Is "," a "." ?
Where has 9.81 come from?

Everything depends on where on the planet Earth you are located. Even g is not constant and will vary a bit ... so to be more precise choose the value that suits your location from the url below:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_of_Earth

 

[mbrusa]

That's in the technical section on the 860c display?
If the machine already knows the figure, why do we need to enter it manually?

Thx

In the version for 860C (and 850C, SW102) there is a difference.
With the other displays there is a single parameter "Torque adc step", it is used for the calculation of the human power to be shown on the display and to define the assistance factor (ratio between the human power and the power of the motor in "Power assist " mode).
With 860C (and 850C, SW102) I preferred to keep the two functions separate, the human power display is provided by default, to have an acceptable value it is necessary to calibrate with weight. The obtained value is used only for display.
If you also want to define the assistance factor (only in "Power assist" mode) in a precise way, the "ADC torque step calc" value obtained from the calibration and displayed in the technical section, must be entered manually in "Torque adc step".
If the ratio% between human power and motor power is not of interest, "Torque adc step" can be used to modify, with a single parameter, the ratio in the assistance calculation at all levels.

 

[blazo]

...
Temperatures:
20.1C.2 (860c) (power limit 525W) with field weakening -- 75c
20.1C.2 (860c) (power limit 525W)without field weakening -- 74c
0.20.0beta1 (lcd3) (power limit 550W, so even a little higher) -- 55c

Than I tested 20.1C.2 (860c) and set up my max power to 400W. And I got 65c but the ride uphill was much slower.
...

Well thanks for the test
Immediately a clarification, the comparison between v20.1C and 0.20beta1-LCD3, is not on equal terms, I have already written it.
The ADC conversion parameters of the current are different.
In all recent versions, one ADC step equals 0.156 Amp, in 0.20beta1-LCD3 it is 0.17 Amp.
The difference is 10%, that's not a little bit.
There is however another parameter with 20% difference and it is for the phase current of the motor used in the calculation of the FOC angle.
I will have to do some tests to understand how much it can affect the actual current / power.
Surely the current / power limit of the 0.20beta1-LCD3 version, at the same value, is lower than v20.1C.

Another consideration, it is not enough to set the power limit, the limit current is also important, it must be adapted to the motor / battery voltage, with the new version this limit is reached more quickly.

The test method must also be improved, in addition to the maximum power, the time taken or the average speed should also be considered. It is to understand where the extra current / power absorbed by the battery goes, because if it goes to the wheel it is not a defect, just take it into account by adjusting the assistance level.

Personally I am very satisfied with this new version of mspider65, in addition to being quieter the motor, in my opinion it consumes less than the previous one.

In these days I have done some tests on a route already done many times, in my way of using the bike at 50/60 rpm without forcing, with 10°C external the motor reaches a maximum of 40°C and I think the sensor works correctly.
One day I increased the assistance by two levels to try to keep the power close to the 500W limit, I only got there in steep uphill sections.
I consumed 50% more battery, on 22 km the average speed was 18 km/h instead of the usual 14 km/h (ascent and descent), the max temperature 50°C instead of 40°C, but contrary to what I expected I did much more effort.
Pedaling uphill over 80 rpm has crushed my legs, having the limit power as a goal to maintain is not for me.

No I'm not going back, the temperature is a problem only in conditions of high power, it is not the only aspect to evaluate.
I'll try to understand and improve if I can, but I'm not going back.

Thank you so much for your reply mbrusa,

Regarding different ADC conversion for version 0.20.0beta1 and 20.1C.2 - I didn't know about that, but in my test I did 550W limit for 0.20beta1 and later 400W for 20.1C.2 .Results are that 20.1C.2 was still 10c more than old 0.20beta1.

I think current shouldn't go to limit, because my battery is 52v almost fully charged. with 56v and 500w is no more than 10amps. I had both firmwares set with limit 16a.

I can repeat the test, I will measure time from bottom of the hill to top. So what parameters I should set? how many watts limit, and amperes on which firmware. I would like to test better. maybe some other ideas for testing.

I understand there is no going back the new firmware is sooo good, and all the features too! I wouldn't go back too if I could, it's just when you start riding with tsdz2 in the mountians on longer climbs, low temperature is the most important thing I look for

 

[Elinx]

Is "/" a "÷" ?
Is "," a "." ?
.. 9.81 ..?

Everything depends on where on the planet Earth you are located. Even g is not constant and will vary a bit ...

Is "/" a "÷" and "," a "." Yes ofcourse. As you know, there are different notations in different countries.
As plpetrov said 9.81 m/s2 (meters per second squared) stand for gravity on earth and you need it for converting kilogram to Newton

 

[Mr.Flibble]

That's in the technical section on the 860c display?
If the machine already knows the figure, why do we need to enter it manually?

Thx

In the version for 860C (and 850C, SW102) there is a difference.
With the other displays there is a single parameter "Torque adc step", it is used for the calculation of the human power to be shown on the display and to define the assistance factor (ratio between the human power and the power of the motor in "Power assist " mode).
With 860C (and 850C, SW102) I preferred to keep the two functions separate, the human power display is provided by default, to have an acceptable value it is necessary to calibrate with weight. The obtained value is used only for display.
If you also want to define the assistance factor (only in "Power assist" mode) in a precise way, the "ADC torque step calc" value obtained from the calibration and displayed in the technical section, must be entered manually in "Torque adc step".
If the ratio% between human power and motor power is not of interest, "Torque adc step" can be used to modify, with a single parameter, the ratio in the assistance calculation at all levels.

Thank you for such a quick and clear explanation.

Keep up the good work

 

[Mr.Flibble]

Is "/" a "÷" ?
Is "," a "." ?
.. 9.81 ..?

Everything depends on where on the planet Earth you are located. Even g is not constant and will vary a bit ...

Is "/" a "÷" and "," a "." Yes ofcourse. As you know, there are different notations in different countries.
As plpetrov said 9,81 m/s-2 (meters per second squared) stand for gravity on earth and you need it for converting kilogram to Newton

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.................................... Now it makes sense.

Thanks

 

[mbrusa]

...
Regarding different ADC conversion for version 0.20.0beta1 and 20.1C.2 - I didn't know about that, but in my test I did 550W limit for 0.20beta1 and later 400W for 20.1C.2 .Results are that 20.1C.2 was still 10c more than old 0.20beta1.
...

It is true, already from this we understand that the main cause cannot be the difference in ADC conversion.
I have to do a test to see how much the second conversion parameter, the one with 20% difference, can affect.
After, the last thing that comes to my mind is to try to decrease the frequency when FW is disabled ...

 

[Waynemarlow]

For any sort of reliable testing, the human element has to be eliminated. Any chance we could use only a throttle for some test runs and measure consumed energy, sure there’s going to be some environmental differences, but us humans are the most variable of all as to how much energy we can add to the system. I think a few have not fitted temp sensors ?

 

[Waynemarlow]

Double quote

 

[blazo]

...
Regarding different ADC conversion for version 0.20.0beta1 and 20.1C.2 - I didn't know about that, but in my test I did 550W limit for 0.20beta1 and later 400W for 20.1C.2 .Results are that 20.1C.2 was still 10c more than old 0.20beta1.
...

It is true, already from this we understand that the main cause cannot be the difference in ADC conversion.
I have to do a test to see how much the second conversion parameter, the one with 20% difference, can affect.
After, the last thing that comes to my mind is to try to decrease the frequency when FW is disabled ...

I'm always happy to test, if you would like to try something. You can pm me also with test versions.
Thanks!

 

[martin.shane]

Im testing 20.2C.2
So far so good.

One thing happened today in cadence mode.
I was off the bike and it starts to move. Very slowly. Walk assist is disable. I have switched off/on and after that all was ok.
Also - is not related probably to the firmware . In one point of cycle i have some kind of gridding sound. Always in the same position of the crank and in higher cadence in higher gears ( if the gear in lower i need to push on the pedal harder and it is not there)
Any idea what it may be?

 

[jbalat]

Always in the same position of the crank and in higher cadence in higher gears ( if the gear in lower i need to push on the pedal harder and it is not there)
Any idea what it may be?

I get that too.. I always feel its the chain rubbing against the front chainring due to the angle. I tried some wet lube on the chain and it is still there but smoother.

 

[mbrusa]

Im testing 20.2C.2
So far so good.

One thing happened today in cadence mode.
I was off the bike and it starts to move. Very slowly. Walk assist is disable. I have switched off/on and after that all was ok.
Also - is not related probably to the firmware . In one point of cycle i have some kind of gridding sound. Always in the same position of the crank and in higher cadence in higher gears ( if the gear in lower i need to push on the pedal harder and it is not there)
Any idea what it may be?

I noticed that there is a bug, a wrong copy / paste.
It introduces a problem in the acceleration ramp in cadence mode, this could be the cause.
I'll try tomorrow and if it works I'll put it on GitHub.
A question.
Have you noticed if with the new version the delay when you restart pedaling has decreased?

 

[martin.shane]

I get that too.. I always feel its the chain rubbing against the front chainring due to the angle. I tried some wet lube on the chain and it is still there but smoother.

In my case is not a chain as it is there even with the chain off... I will look inside the motor again today. Let U know.

Have you noticed if with the new version the delay when you restart pedaling has decreased?

[/quote]
Yes. I do not feel any delay now- very natural. I even switched off start boost as it is not needed now for my style of ride.
Everything very very smooth.
I start using frequently power mode with FW off and battery consumption is very low- around 6 WH/ km , adv speed 20 km/h . assist level 4.
with FW on i have slightly more consumption but still around max 9 wh/h so is very good for longer trips.
Thanks a lot for all U affords to make this little motor better!
How can I donate ?

 

[HughF]

I will have to give this latest version a try... Did you say that hybrid mode has been removed now though?

 

[martin.shane]

Hybrid mode is not removed. It was my mistake. I have Jude it based on set up parameters in assist mode. I didn't know that HM is set up automatically base on parameters from TQ and Power mode.
HM is accessible from main menu as normal.
Sorry for that misunderstanding.

 

[maximusdm]

Thank you for the clear explanation.
The procedure explained is exactly what I use for more than 2 years. I will redo de calibration and come with the results.

Just that my battery is 48v/17ah so aprox 816Wh. The real measured value by checking the consumed watts is 630Wh on 0.20.beta1.
I hope that the same value can be use also in current version, because in my latest test the consumed Wh was aprox 350wh much smaller than my battery.

Ok I wait for the results, if they are confirmed there is something wrong.

LCD 3 TEST
Ok, I did a full charge and reset all the counters.
I feels like most of the params are modified around 15-20%.
Temperature is 20% higher, the motor power felt at pedaling is 15% more and the battery range is aprox 100wh less. (530wh instead of 630wh)
I use most of the time higher cadence 80-100.

My only problem is that the battery consumption based on wh shows that I have more 100wh, but the battery voltage is close to cut off voltage. What I can say for sure is that the battery voltage at full is correct 54.5v and I also think the 38v cutoff voltage is shown correctly.

I can see only 2 options here:
1. my battery has some cells not working, but this can be verified with an old soft version if I get more wh consumption. Also I di not know how can show 54,5 v at full with damaged cells. Does not make sense.
2. the measurement of wh with LCD3 implementation has some issues.

 

[mbrusa]

Great test.
Regarding the battery capacity, in the 20.1C version for stock displays, I have seen that the consumption in Wh is 10% lower than the actual one. Verified with an external coulomb counter, for this I added a fix.
I think this difference is also with LCD3, the calculation is the same.
One thing I didn't understand, how did you get the actual capacity of 630Wh, did you also check it with 20.1C?
With residual 100Wh, what is SOC%?
The residual capacity in Wh, even if wrong as an absolute value, should always be proportional to SOC%.

 

[martin.shane]

I would like to share with U guys my experience from today.
I have 4 motors. One from the new made some gridding sound like sand would be inside , also it was one spot with kind of click sound and like something is blocking full 360 degree cycle. I have decided to look at that. It is a new version motor from February 2021.
I do not know if my motor was fault from the beginning but looks like there is a tide main bearing so taking off main gear was not so easy. Actually i have try different approaches, tools, hummer and so and it did not work. Even the pin did not get out. In the end I have destroyed it by trying and the main gear is still on the shaft.
I have disassembly those motors before and it was not a problem.
So i have a bucket of spare parts now . Its a pity as this motor was quite new but ride was not really present as it made this noise and this regulars small kick on pedal every turn i have made - have driven me creazy
Can anybody confirm how it looks like with new motors (2021)?
May be it is just me or may be they have change something.

 

[mspider65]

It is true, already from this we understand that the main cause cannot be the difference in ADC conversion.
I have to do a test to see how much the second conversion parameter, the one with 20% difference, can affect.
After, the last thing that comes to my mind is to try to decrease the frequency when FW is disabled ...

Hi Marco,
I have an idea what could be causing the overheating at high power.
I'm not sure but I think it's worth a try.
Unfortunately, in the next days I will not have the opportunity to do any tests.
The changes are very limited, in case write me in private if you want to give it a try.

 

[maximusdm]

Great test.
Regarding the battery capacity, in the 20.1C version for stock displays, I have seen that the consumption in Wh is 10% lower than the actual one. Verified with an external coulomb counter, for this I added a fix.
I think this difference is also with LCD3, the calculation is the same.
One thing I didn't understand, how did you get the actual capacity of 630Wh, did you also check it with 20.1C?
With residual 100Wh, what is SOC%?
The residual capacity in Wh, even if wrong as an absolute value, should always be proportional to SOC%.

Hi Mbrusa,
I am glad we are on the same page with the consumption wh and we have a scientific explanation . I was thinking of a workaround by lowering the battery capacity declared in battery menu, but if you have a fix even better.
Regarding the heat, I feel a correct tradeoff because of the extra power. If I want less heat I can lower the assistance.

Regarding your question about the battery capacity of 630wh, I determined on v20beta1 by checking many times how much wh I can drain out until the motor stops. It is a very accurate value that I tested in more than 2 years in my setup.
I am not sure what you mean by residual capacity, but I would normally expect to be able to drain from the battery same 630wh no matter the power and heat generated by the motor. The SOC % is at 17% and i think i can go max to 15 until it stops.
The range achieved was aprox 80km instead of 95-100km so on the same 15% range,

I think with the latest changes from mspider65, the power gain remains and the heat and consumption is lower. If you have time to add them in the future, it would be great.

I cant wait to take the bike on the mountain once it gets a bit warmer .

 

[Charlie Whiskey]

Can I get a fact check on the process to calibrate the torque sensor:

1. Right crank horizontal, zero weight --> get value for "Torque adc offset" from "ADC torque sensor" from the Technical page.
2. Right crank horizontal, full rider weight on crank --> get value for "Torque adc max".
3. Right crank horizontal, 25kg on crank --> get value for "Torque adc on weight"
4. Put all of the above into the Torque Sensor page, then get "Torque adc step" from "ADC torque step calc" from the Technical page.
5. Enable Calibration in the Torque Sensor page.

Correct?

Cheers.

 

[galaxissurfer]

Hello, I use Vlcd6 and have a problem. How exactly do I get to parameter settings 03 and 04 when I want to turn off the startup boost in E03 in Level 1 Eco, for example? E02 Street mode works perfectly. According to the instructions, you should press the down button. But it does not work for me.

 

[mbrusa]

Parameter setting is done by switching the lights on and off, with VLCD6 it is inconvenient because you have to press the DOWN button for 2 seconds each time.
Keep in mind that there are only 5 seconds to go from E02 to E03 and the same time to go to E04.
If the E02 Street setting works well, after the status change you must immediately press the DOWN button for 2 seconds and display E03, before the time available runs out.
If it still doesn't work, try increasing "Time to menu items" to 60 (6 seconds) in the configurator.

 

[mbrusa]

Can I get a fact check on the process to calibrate the torque sensor:

1. Right crank horizontal, zero weight --> get value for "Torque adc offset" from "ADC torque sensor" from the Technical page.
2. Right crank horizontal, full rider weight on crank --> get value for "Torque adc max".
3. Right crank horizontal, 25kg on crank --> get value for "Torque adc on weight"
4. Put all of the above into the Torque Sensor page, then get "Torque adc step" from "ADC torque step calc" from the Technical page.
5. Enable Calibration in the Torque Sensor page.

Correct?

Cheers.

It is correct.
For "ADC torque step calc" instead of using a weight, which can be difficult, you can use a luggage scale.
Or calculate an estimated value with "Default weight" as described in the manual.