Urgent need for ebike vs 2nd car, advice greatly appreciated

[pukeskywalker]

Hello everybody, I am a noob looking for equipment recommendations for a 700c hub-motor conversion.

I am sorry for asking noob questions without thoroughly reading the FAQs and lurking. I'm in a pressing situation where I must decide between buying a second car or building an ebike in the next ~21 days. I am usually the type to research endlessly before taking the plunge on a technical venture.


Short version:

- I need a motor/battery rig that can get me (180 lb) and my 700c alum/carbon Nashbar touring bike (30 lbs) distances of ~30 miles twice in one day, for my daily commute.

- I am a healthy 28 year old and I cycle unasisted about 20 miles every week. I want electric assist to cover ~50% of the effort for this commute.

- Upper limit on funds is $1,500

- Willing to lug a second battery, moderate chance of gaining permission to recharge at work.

- Strong knowledge of bike building, have all the tools needed and lots of experience building non-e-bikes at home.

- Have rack, panniers, fenders, working bike, etc. etc. etc.


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For anyone who is not bored and wants to read my human-interest story, the details are below. If not, a quick recommendations of motors/batteries available in the States would be greatly appreciated.

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Predicament:

1. Surprise long commute:
I took a job that is 25 miles away (flat land). The commute to the interview was 30 minutes. Google maps says 30 minutes, but during rush hour the ride is averaging 1h15. Surprise!

2. Wife's commute extended.
When I took the job, my wife agreed to take the train to work. It took her commute from 20 minutes to an hour every day. She's in the same boat.

3. We're frugal (cheap)
We are a one-car family and want to keep it that way. We do not want to deal with a second car payment.

4. The cumulative loss of ~3.5 hours of time per day has both of us struggling to keep up with basic house work, cooking, and exercise.


Now I must decide between a 2nd car and an e-bike. I'd rather get the bike! The commute is dangerous (highway driving) but there is a full 23-mile bike path that goes directly to my work.

I am very good with bikes, have built many of my own, but with electronics I only know the fundamentals.

Thanks for your time

 

[Drunkskunk]

While I'm pro Ebike, and pro green living, Get a car.

Assuming you need to be at work every day on time, you'll need reliable transportation. for a short haul, an ebike can be. but not for your situation.

An ebike that needs to cover 60 miles a day is going to be a maintenance nightmare. That's roughly 15,000 miles a year. If you can't charge at work, The amount of battery you'll need to carry will be ridiculously large and heavy, 2100 watts recommended for a 20mph ride. (36 watts per mile battery capacity.)
And bikes get flats. There's just no way to avoid them all. Bike tires are thin, and even with your best efforts, you'll get flats, which leave you stuck far from home and late to work.

My best advice is to get a cheap used car. at 15,000 miles a year, you will wear it out fast, so find a lower mileage 10-15 year old $3000 car and expect to replace it every couple years. it will be more reliable than an ebike and you'll keep your job longer.

 

[pukeskywalker]

Thanks for the quick reply, drunkskunk. I appreciate the sage advice

We aren't hard-pressed for money these days, but we are anti-car if we can be. Looks like it's time to get a car

I haven't lost my interest in e-bikes and we might have some kids on the way soon. A good excuse to build a kid-hauler e-bike once we've adjusted to the car payments...

 

[dnmun]

there may be a lot of the Leaf cars coming off lease in the near future and maybe you can find a deal yet on CL if you are patient and watch. even look in adjacent areas on CL and if it is farther than the range then consider finding a way to charge in between so you can transport it back without a trailer. finding charging spots is not too difficult. you might have to spend time in the car waiting but that is not so much a big deal. drive slow and at night/early early morning, so the traffic is not on your tail and you should be able to make a long trip work.

 

[motomech]

I agree what you need is a little much for a first-time Ebike.
There is a third option, used Japanese motorcycle or scooter, or even a new Chinese model.
You neglected to say where you are, but it's summer everywhere.
If you are interested in this idea, scootdawg.com is a good place to readup on inexpensive Chinese scooters.
Build your Ebike when you can, they are fun!

 

[upward]

I think commuting to work 30 miles each way is possible, but you have a few things that will make that difficult:
1) You pretty much have to be able to charge at work with that range. Carrying extra batteries is a tough option for that long of a commute.
2) You have to be pretty hard core to commute every day including rain, snow, high wind, physical fatigue, darkness, late meetings, early meetings etc. without a car as a back-up. I have a 19 mile commute each way but I drive when it rains and when I have an early meeting.
3) My job allows me some flexibility with my hours but when I have a meeting I need to be at and I cannot afford a flat tire, I drive. I went 15 months with no flat tires, then last month I had three flat tires in a week.

On the plus side, commuting by ebike might take around the same amount of time or be a little faster. On the good days, you could do it. On the bad days, it would would be tough.

You could consider doing as Skunk recommended and get that cheap car. But build a cheap ebike also and use the ebike on days with good weather where you can afford to have a flat tire if it happens.
I cut my driving miles at least in half by doing this.

Best of luck. And don't wait until you have kids to build the ebike. Many people find that leisure time shrinks considerably once the kids come.

 

[pukeskywalker]

dnmun: Leaf Car - Interesting idea! I actually work at a company that has charging stations. However this job is not permanent (yet). Not worth the investment risk. Also I am 6'4 so that might be a comfort issue.

motomech: scooter- I don't think a scooter would be legal on this bike path I was planning on commuting on. Great suggestion though.

upward - Good advice. I definitely *want* and e-bike now that I've seen what they can do. If I can wrangle up some enough money by selling bike parts, and break even building an e-bike, I may build one this summer just for the heck of it.

I used to commute in the city in all weather. My 3 mile commute was rough in the winter and the rain. Switched to fair-weather cycling after a while

 

[dnmun]

i am like luke now, i feel sorry for the people i see driving a gas powered auto. i get around at 1.5 cents/mile and my honda wagon is now up to 14 cents/mile. the big gas hogs on my tail are paying 1500% more to go down the road than me. i consider it a good investment. i doubt if you are too big in any case and if you get free juice at work it is even better as a deal.

 

[NeilP]

Yep, battery usage is the bogie here..going to almost certainly need a top up charge at work..but that sort of depends on the speed you want to do totally on electric .

My Xlyte direct drive motor running with an 18 FET controller and riding at up to 35-40 mph will do me 18-20 miles easily with a 22lb battery made of LiPO cells..nano tech 20 series 4 parallel. I can use up to 75-80 wh/mile
This is with a heavy DD motor where drag when pedalling is an issue...combine a battery like that with a high speed low torque geared motor and a smaller controller.
The smaller controller will have to be current limited ..but you want low current to keep your battery consumption down ..with the voltage of 20 s so 82 volt is max, a low current settings on the controller..jsut a 6 FET is finewoudl get you 25-30 mph easily with the right motor and wheel combo...in fact my not even need a high speed wind motor..

add a bit of pedalling and you are getting towards your range.

I know i can do 45 miles plus with my Xlyte DD, if I limit current to 18-20 amps and keep speed down to 25 mph or less. A less draggy geared motor, better rolling 700 tyres as opposed to my 2.25 x 26 inch tyres ...add a bit of pedalling too and you are not far off your range.

get one of the new Grin tech 5 amp programable trickle chargers and you will have more chance of charging at work with a small pro looking neat charge solution

 

[wesnewell]

If you're in this to save time, you probably can't save a lot unless you can go over 20mph on the bike path. However you can save a lot of money. Riding tuck at 25mph you'll need 30ah of 12s lipo or equivalent for a range of 59 miles. 30ah of 12s lipo should fit in a 700C bike open triangle. You can do this with about any <$300 48V 1000W kit. But the battery cost will range from $500 and up depending on what you buy.

 

[mvly]

If you are not after high top speed, you can build a pretty reliable ebike for $1500. Though I would stay away from road bike conversions if you plan to make it reliable. Maybe if you get a MAC and set the power to 500W, you might be able to make the MAC and road bike reliable enough for daily commute. Just keep in mind the ebike is like a regular bike so you will need to maintain it as usual.

I commute 23 miles one way, 45 miles round trip with my ebike everyday for the past 6 months with little problems once you work out the kinks. But keep in mind my commute is high power. I try to sustain 40mph the whole way with a few spot reaching 50mph just to keep up with the cars.

My recommendation is if there is a bike path up to where you work, stick with your road bike now. It's a long commute. Probably going to take you 1.5 hours minimum, but it will be healthy for you and you don't have to spend the money to build the ebike. Since it's relatively flat, it should be an easy commute. I venture once you get use to it, it would be easier and you can count it as your exercise for the day. I would do the same but there are a lot of cars and hills on my path so ebike is the only way for me.

However if you must convert, I would get something reliable like a MAC 8T and a small controller. Carry an extra controller and keep your speed < 30mph assisted or 20mph unassisted. You should be able to do the 23 miles one way easy using a 48V10Ah LiFePO4 pack assisted. Just make sure to charge both ways. LiFePO4 should last you a long time if you keep your power usage low.

 

[grindz145]

Assuming you need to be at work every day on time, you'll need reliable transportation. for a short haul, an ebike can be. but not for your situation.
.

I totally disagree, though I understand Drunkskunk's position. Hacker ebikes can be unreliable.

However, I have 7k miles on my ebike and an 18 mile commute one way. My ebike has been fairly reliable and saves me time and money. There is no need for the toy culture with respect to ebikes. Get something off-the-shelf from a high end manufacturer such as A2B, STromer / etc and there should be very little to worry about. It sounds like your in an ideal scenario to be an everyday bike commuter. I like out in the country in a very rough climate, and we still maintain a 1 car family, and I very rarely ever use it to commute (reserved for my wife).

Just another guys account.

 

[davec]

i totally agree with skunk's statement
at this stage ebikes are simply toys-they are also fine for short hauls- but they are unreliable and require a ton of maintenance and only last so long- breaking spokes- wheel trues, etc....the batteries etc will run very expensive
a properly built high end ebike could run more than a car
also the kits/parts you normally purchase fall apart so it take a ton of effort to re-do everything and make them reliable- not only that but if the weather gets bad you def dont wanto be sitting on an ebike

e-scooters might be a bit more reliable

here's a real good thread for you

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=42501

 

[pukeskywalker]

neil, wes, nyvl - Thanks for the advice

At this point, I'm going to focus on finding a car, then I will pursue setting up an e-bike as funds become available. I have the touring bike sitting in the basement, ready to be outfitted, just need to find a good hub and battery combo.

My commute right now, via car, averages approx 20mph. In a car! So speeds above 20mph on the ebike would be a bonus.

Money-wise, it costs $40/week in gas, plus about $70/week for insurance and car payments.

If I can e-bike to work 3-days a week, average, for 8 months out of the year, that is about $850 in gas money, which would help cover costs. It would also reduce the mileage on the car by about 5,000 miles/year. At that point I'm at least breaking even on the initial set-up costs within the year.

The other major benefits would be the exercise, the fresh air, mental health, and the reduced risk of mortality via auto accident.

 

[pukeskywalker]

grindz145 - what kind of off-the-shelf bike do you ride?

I'd like to do a conversion just because I enjoy working on bikes as a hobby.

I also like to ride a more aero position than a typical mountain bike set-up. Drop-bars would be preferred

 

[grindz145]

grindz145 - what kind of off-the-shelf bike do you ride?

I'd like to do a conversion just because I enjoy working on bikes as a hobby.

I also like to ride a more aero position than a typical mountain bike set-up. Drop-bars would be preferred

I don't ride an off-the-shelf bike actually. I have a relatively unreliable hacker ebike. Even that being said, I maintain a professional position and ride every day. I'm at the point where the only reliability issue is a flat once and a while, and I average 1 flat every 800 miles or so, but I attribute that to the fact that I largely ride on the shoulder, which is littered with road junk. I have to imagine that this would be less of an issue on a bike path.

This however, has taken many hours of screwing around to get to the point of reliability. If you need something that is going to be reliable, I highly recommend some of the current ebike offerings. You will still have some tire/spoke maintenance etc, but in my experience this is been overwhelming worthwhile. There are always trials and tribulations of converting a bicycle that was never intended to be electric. I've gained an appreciation for the ground-up designs.

my recommendation is to check out the high end Currie stuff, Stromer, A2B or other higher end (~$3k ish). My original break-even was at about 5000 miles or about 4 months at my current rate, after substituting the car.

 

[BikeFanatic]

As a seasoned biker I bet you could get away with a light geared motor- such as a bafang BPM 48 volt 500 watt hub motor, combined with a 48 volt 15 amp hour battery, and some pedaling you could make it to work and recharge there, hopefully. there is a user selling a ten T bafang and controller for 300 laced in a 26 inch wheel, great for an old trek - at least in the good weathe ryou will be happy to bee out of traffic and on hte bike. The geared mtors are light ( about 10-11 pounds inc the wheel, and they have no drag when you pedal, unlike the heavy direct drive hub motors.

here is a Es user selling an entire kit

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=59571&p=900620#p900620v

 

[Holocene]

I have to agree with D.S. on this decision, but have you considered a gas scooter? 100+ mpg and cheap insurance/reg will save you real money, while the whole purchase can easily fit into a $1,500 bill.

The reality with custom hi-performance electric bikes is that they take years of development to become reliable, and even then will break down occasionally leaving you scrambling to get to work. But with the scooter, you may be able to "lane-split" in rush hour traffic, getting you closer to Google's mythical 30 min commute.

Where do you live? Please update your location in the "User Control Panel". There is an astounding amount of local knowledge embedded in this Forum, and the ES community shares like no other!

But there really are no turn key solutions for your needs with a $1,500 budget. And it's unrealistic to create a home-brew solution for that budget in just a couple of weeks. Even a $10K+ hi-perf commercial ebike will take more than a few weeks to order, build, and deliver.

But not to worry! Good luck with your new job, and hope you get started on an e-bike project soon. BTW, any chance you can interest your wife in the ebike lifestyle? You could become a Zero-Car family, and save TONS of $$$. All it takes is time, effort, and a e-cargo trike...

Cheers, and have fun!
Holocene

 

[MadRhino]

You have a car already, that is enough gas burning. I believe that if you have strong bike knowledge, you can build a reliable commuter and maintain it. Yet you need to buy quality components that are reputed for reliability. One doesn't need to know much about electric to build a good ebike, just to be conscious. fit things right, and ready to spend the money to buy the good components. This means that I find your budget is low, for the requirements that you have.

You will save time and money on the long run, and will have fun going to work most of the time, if you invest what it takes in the first place.

 

[mvly]

For all who say ebikes are toys and are unreliable, I have to disagree. Sure your first build is going to be junky, but that is because you are learning. Once you get it down, they can be damn hardy. The key is build it right the first time around and properly maintain it. Like any other mechanical machine, you have to properly maintain your bike. I usually do it once every 2 weeks after the bike is broken in. And most of the time it's just checking things here and there. Nothing major.

The key to building a reliable ebike are:

1) Get experts in the fields to do some of the things you are not good at. For instance, I wont trust anyone to build my wheel besides Ilia at ebikessf. Sure there might be others who can build wheels equally well, but point is if you don't know how to build a proper wheel, get someone else to do it for you. Just make sure they know what they are doing. I have never had spoke breakage from his wheel save for 1 which was when he was still learning about the process. His subsequent motors have more miles and spokes are still good.

2) Over engineer the parts AND build redundancy. Cheap controllers will break, so bring a sensor less controller as a backup along for the ride.

3) Don't over power your system. Want to keep your bike running for long? Don't overpower the controller/motor/wires/etc. Run it way way under specs.

4) Build clean system. Tuck wires away or zip tie them. Make sure the solder joints on the connectors are proper, etc. Make sure tires are pumped properly, etc

5) Don't crash!

6) Bonus: There is a way to prevent flats. I have gone more than 7K miles between my two ebikes with the same tire hacks without 1 flats running over random stuff. You pay the price of having to carry more weight, but on an ebike, that does not really matter. Read some of my post.

Is the ebike going to be more reliable than a new car? maybe not. But will it be more reliable than a used car? IMO yes! With a used car, you probably have less knowledge of what is going on let alone how to fix it let alone the car history. With the ebike, you built the system, for the most part, so you should have the skills to service and fix any issues that arises.

Ebike as toys are only for the experimentalist. I think for those who say ebikes are toys or unreliable are people who just want to tinker. For me, I build something I plan to ride until the metal start to fall off the bike.

 

[Holocene]

There is no need for the toy culture with respect to ebikes. Get something off-the-shelf from a high end manufacturer such as A2B, STromer / etc and there should be very little to worry about.

The O.P. specified a $1,500 budget, the desire for reliability, and saving time vs. his 1.25 hr commute in traffic via car. Neither of these ebikes meets those criteria.

The Ultramotor A2B costs $3,600 from Amazon.com plus shipping to ??? (ie: $134 within U.S.A.)

The $3,000 Stromer is probably not up to the job. An electricbike.com Review says:

According to one of the managers at Blazing Saddles Rentals, the Stromer is not as reliable as even their A2B bike, and is prone to sporadic failures with the BMS, throttle and controller. This was suprising to me given the price point of the Stromer, and the fact that it is a direct drive hub motor, and DDs are normally known for their reliability. But then again, after testing the bike and examining it up close, given the second-rate components chosen on this bike, it makes sense that the bike would not be bulletproof. And bulletproof is a quality I would really expect in a $3000 direct drive hub bike.

An ebike likely can cruise legally (part of reliability) at no more than 20 mph/32 kph on the desired bike path due to local regulations (the O.P. has not yet provided his location) so does not reduce the commute time from 1.25 hrs over a 25 mile commute. So that just leaves cost as the major e-bike benefit.

But a gas scooter travels at car speeds, is reliable, saves time and $$$, is available within 21 days, and fits within a $1,500 budget. Pretty obvious solution to me, without knowing the specific location other than 'flat-land'....

Cheers,
Holocene

 

[spinningmagnets]

Get an E-bike, and between now and winter, save money up to pay cash for a used car. The bike path is 23 miles, but if you are doing 25-MPH, it will take you about an hour each way, so no real time savings.

If there isn't any stop-and-go...and the commute is flat...a direct drive hub is just about as efficient as a geared hub. The benefit is that they are quiet, which may help you avoid conflicts on the bike paths. The drawback is they visually stand out (not stealthy) they are a little heavier, and there is some magnetic drag (called cogging) when you are pedaling with no power.

A geared hub has no drag when pedaling with no power on. They are lighter. They are also a little smaller, so behind some panniers they are very stealthy. There is a small amount of gear noise, a little like a cordless drill. If you upgrade to a sine-wave controller, a small amount of the buzzing (from the controller) goes away. I think a geared hub would work for you.

If you are happy with 1,000W you can save a few bucks by getting the Bafang-BPM. I recommend 48V and limit the controller to 20A. If you think you may want to upgrade to a little more power, then pay a little extra and get a MAC 10T (top speed approx 28-MPH at 48V). It has a 25% wider stator, so more copper mass, can take more amp-heat. 48V X 30A = 1,440W. If you end up not needing 30A, limit it to 25A and everything will run cooler.

For flat tires, Luke and Chalo recommend RiBMo: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53676. Since this is for a job commute, carry a spare tube, wrenches, plus air-pump.

For a plug and play battery, I recommend cell_man at em3ev.com. For 21A-30A you don't need high current cells, so you can save money by getting his standard 22P cell. Even with the base model cell, the pack is a little pricey, but worth it. It is a quality product, and cell_man stands behind his customer service.

Ping makes a good LiFePO4 battery and they last a very long time (3 years of frequent cycling is common), but you really need to make a good case to protect the foil-cells, and he only makes square packs. cell_man has a triangle shaped pack option, plus a velcro'd triangle bag. Line it with some hard but pliant foam and you are good to go (18650 cylindrical cells are more robust than the flat foil packs).

For the car? save up about $3,000 and this fall, shop for a 5-10 year old Toyota Corolla with a manual transmission.

 

[electr0n]

I was commuting close to 10 miles round trip to work for almost 2 years exclusively on my ebike. I saved somewhere in the neighborhood of $6000 to $7000 during that time by not owning a car. If you're motivated enough you can do it, specially if you have a bus route or some other back up in case you break down or the weather is really bad. In my opinion the technical aspect of this is the easier part. It's more a matter of how determined are you to commute that far every day, even in bad weather.

You could get a car for now and save up and build a bike and try riding it to work on a day off and ease your way into car replacement. It could be worth your while to try to find a job closer to home even if it pays less.

 

[pukeskywalker]

Well, this conversation got me more information than I was expecting. Thanks everybody. It's rare to find a forum where people are this generous with their knowledge


grindz145

Thanks for the clarification. I'm going to check those out.


BikeFanatic

This 10lb wheel option is very appealing. I spend a lot of money keeping the weight of my bikes down, and I wouldn't want to throw a 20lb hub on my aluminum/carbon frame that I want to do this on. Thanks for pointing out that there are multiple hub-motor types. I had no idea.

I'd want better rims than what that ES user is selling (no offense). Probably a high-end touring rim like a Mavic A719


Holocene

My wife's commute is only 3 miles. Your post gave me the idea to suggest she get an electric scooter. She's going to think it over. She really hates cars and always wanted a moped...

My commute is on highways that can get close to 70mph, no scooter for me.


MadRhino, mvly

Thanks



spinningmagnets
I appreciate the explaination of the difference between geared and direct drive. Getting out of my city would take some stop-and-go. About 3/4 of the ride would be on a path with little need to stop.

Bafang-BPM sounds like a great idea for a minimal investment. MAC 10T also. I have a great Velocity Synergy rim in my basement that might go well with either.

Tire wise I am a schwalbe fanatic. I would probably go with something from the Marathon series. The Marathon Supreme is incredibly light, fast, and flat resistant (but they are ~$75 each). I know they make an E-bike specific tire too....

Cells/case. Thanks! Well, this might have been the post that determines my e-bike build.


electr0n
Valid points. There are a bunch of positives about this job that are keeping my loyal (pay is'nt that great either). Right now I'm going to have to stick with it for the rest of the year at least.

 

[dogman dan]

This is a really tough one. It's really a long distance for less than a motorcycle.

I think you can build a very reliable ebike for that distance, but the budget needs to be at least $500 more. Reliable kits exist, that are more water resistant and such. Same with the battery, but the cheapest ebay battery won't be reliable enough for that kind of serious miles.

You will eat tires, brake pads, etc. You will spend $$ on the kind of clothes you will need, but you'd need the same to ride a motorcycle.

You won't save any time ebiking instead of riding a motorcycle, but if the bike path works, it will beat traffic. The thing is, if you hooligan ride that path, they might kick you off.

But if you ride when it's empty, let er rip.