what kit for the heavy rider?

[crowblades]

I have been reading about motor size, battery size and problems that people have with picking a first kit to start I to the world of ebiking. Tho most of the posts I read say that they it ist for the heavier rider. I weigh 235 and travel about 15 miles one way to work. I have a few small hills,(5-6% incline) and speed isn't as big of an issue as my fat ass. As long as I can pass 25mph I can get to work in a reasonable time. I have been looking at getting the leaf motor kit. 48v 20a 1000w on a 26" MTB. Tho I keep reading that the leaf motor was made with small guage wires that could fry under my weight up a hill. I'll be peddling with the motor to help but I worry I'm still to big. Is there a motor and battery combo that won't break the bank, and my weight won't stress into a meltdown? Please help a newb. I have been a motorcycle rider for years and just had a near death experience with a sedan that didn't see me. I got lucky, and want to get off the road.
Any help finding a kit that will work for me is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Chalo]

As long as I can pass 25mph I can get to work in a reasonable time.

Most parts of the USA require plates and insurance to do that. Be aware that if you try to pass as a legal e-bike on something that's too fast, you can have your ride confiscated and face expensive charges. It may be a remote likelihood, but if you can't afford it, don't play.

 

[crowblades]

I should also say i have the option to take dirt thru several prortions of my commute. The local laws for here in chandler allow for 30mph in the bike lanes the rest of the way. Arizona is fairly lax on many things..

 

[Chalo]

Cool. Well, if you want to carry 25mph, build for 35mph top speed. That way you can maintain your cruise speed into a headwind or a shallow uphill grade, and you won't spend too much time gradually accelerating from 20mph to 25mph.

Even at your weight, a nominal 1000W system should do the trick. Just make sure that the free speed of the motor isn't too low or too high with the wheel size you choose-- about 35 to 40mph free speed is right.

 

[Nelsjourney]

I have more than 100lbs on you if I include equipment. I use the Bafang bbso2 and a kona ute (cargo bike). I have a 48v 20ah battery. All purchased from lunacycle.

This combination is affordable.

I just took a spill today because I got into a racing mode on my commute to work. I didn't see the sand on the sharp turn. I took a spill that I am feeling now. Hours later.

My advice to you is if you are looking to speed especially on bike lanes where everyone there will be slower than you I would look to ride with traffic if you are doing 25mph or more. There are so many people who are texting, headphones, doing other things and not paying attention on the lane and dodge in front of you.

If you get into an accident with a jogger, walker, or other bicyclist that doesn't have a motor, you will definitely be the one who will get the worst of it.

 

[wesnewell]

Please read this, and fill in your location.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302
235 lbs is light compared to my 270. Any of the cheap ($200-$250) 48V 1000W kits will work fine for you. I've got almost 20K miles on mine in about 5 years. There's a lot of hype out there on everything from kits to batteries. Spending more money than you need to will not get you a better solution. If you buy smart, ~$700 is all you need to spend for a bike that will last years and get you back and forth to work.

 

[Chalo]

If you buy smart, ~$700 is all you need to spend for a bike that will last years and get you back and forth to work.

...and make you late for work due to random failures, burn your house down, alienate the service technicians who'd otherwise be your best allies, etc.

Saving a little could cost a lot. Start with a real bike and use real batteries, if this is to be transportation. Walmart bikes and toy airplane batteries represent a lack of commitment that will come around to bite you. If you must scrimp, do so on the motor kit.

 

[amberwolf]

The local laws for here in chandler allow for 30mph in the bike lanes the rest of the way. Arizona is fairly lax on many things..

Not on that; it's pretty specific in the definition of a bicycle in AZ title 28 (easy to find on the AZ legislation/law website) that any assisted bike is only allowed to be operated at less than 20MPH.
If you operate it at higher speeds, you're no longer riding a bicycle, by definition.

At that point, what law enforcement has usually ticketed in the cases I've found documented on the web so far has been "unregistered motorcycle", "no insurance", "unlicensed operator", and all of those are expensive tickets, and AFAICT result in impounding of the vehicle, too, which is expensive enough to pay for that you probalby would be better off abandoning it and starting over, by the time the daily fees add up once the court date for the tickets comes up and you can pay them off.


It's your choice, but don't fool yourself; if they decide to pick on you, you're breaking the law (whatever we might think of that law), and it's going to cost you.


If you had no motor on it, and it was ONLY human-powered, *then* you could ride it at whatever the speed limit for the street you are on is, because the law does not define a bicycle itself with any speed limitations...but if it has a gas or electric motor on it, then you can only operate it at less than 20MPH, because the linked section of title 28 then applies. Seems strange, but that is the law in AZ.

Some places enforce it more than others.


For myself, I ride within the speed limit that law allows; I can't afford to lose my transportation or to pay for tickets. And if I'm riding where there are other cyclists/etc., I either stay down at the speeds they are at, or I ride with the rest of traffic on the street itself to pass them safely, if I have to do so.


Now it doesn't have a POWER limit (except I think Tucson limits you to 1HP, about 750W), so bikes and trikes like mine, designed to haul heavy stuff and get it started moving quickly to avoid aggravating traffic behind me at a light or other stop, can have all the power they need to do this.

 

[dogman dan]

AW is correct about the AZ law. But perhaps a registered moped can go faster, I'm not sure.

But if the cops in chandler don't care, it's up to you. To get 30 mph quickly with a heavier rider, you'll need a bit more than 1000w. You could start with a typical cheap "48v1000w" kit. But then get a very strong battery, which will allow an upgrade to a 2000w (40 amps) controller. 48 v 40 amps will get you to the speed you want without a long wait for it. FWIW, some of those 1000w kits actually have up to 1500w potential, but cruise full speed at about 1000w.

A better bike would be similar power, but also choosing a bigger motor, wider magnets, and hopefully a stronger wheel build. I think Wes has one of those now as well. Something like the Muxus 3000w.

But as a cheap starting point, as long as it lasts, the cheap 1000w kit should get you to 25 mph, likely a bit more. But it will take some time to get to top speed because of the power limit, and your weight. More power would of course get you to speed quicker, and be a nicer ride.

FWIW, when I started out commuting, NEEDING to get there on time daily, my solution was two complete bikes with the cheapo kits. But mostly, what failed was tires. I'd find the tire flat in the am, then just get on the other bike. The kit itself rarely let me down.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Your weight isn't a huge factor, especially with a 1000w kit. A normal person probably weighs 160lbs, but then a normal ebike like most of the rest of the world uses, would be 250 watts. 1000 watts is good old fashion American Overkill.

Going cheap is false economy. Since you want to commute, you probably need the bike to work reliably, every single day. So start with a good bike that didn't come from somewhere with "mart" in the name. Craigslist is a good option for high quality bikes on the cheap.
Next, pick the best battery you can afford. It may seem counter intuitive, but the battery's quality is more important than the motor. A good battery can make up for a poor motor choice, but a poor battery choice can leave you stranded. Lunacycle.com would be my first choice for a commuter build. EM3ev.com would be my second.
For a standard 1000w kit, a 48V 10AH would be the minimum size you need, for 15 miles @ 20mph. A larger AH battery will let you do it at faster speeds, but at higher cost.

Motors are easy. Pretty much any of the generic 1000w kits will work. While ebay is a source, it's also a gamble. There are good vendors and bad vendors. It's likely that the good ebay vendor still has no technical knowledge of their product, and can offer no support. Since you need to keep a commuter up and running, that could be a problem.
For that reason, you might want to check out some of the known ebike companies. You'll pay more for the kits, but you'll get better quality and support. There isn't a huge difference between a $250 Ebay kit and a $325 Lunacycle kit. There are a few extras with the Luna kit and other kits from reputable retailers, but the basic motor kits are very similar. The biggest difference is that the Luna kit comes from a reputable vendor, who knows what he's selling, and will still be around in 6 months if you need warranty work, or replacement parts, or have any issues with the kit. it's worth the extra cost if you have the budget. it's also the best place to trim the budget if you need to spend more on the battery or bike.

 

[2old]

Don't know your budget, but good advice above. YESCOM (acceseries or close on ebay; put 1000w, 48V into browser) have a good 1000w motor for about $200-$240 depending on the day you buy it (look up in the reviews section). Very intuitive to couple with a Luna 52V battery for about 30 mph on my kit or you could use the new 60V battery for an extra margin.

 

[WoodlandHills]

One thing to be aware of is that there are different quality levels of identical looking or even branded Chinese products. I know that both Eric @ Luna and Paul @ EM3ev take the trouble to source the very best versions. I bought a wattmeter on eBay for $10 less than the identical one sold at Luna and it went pop and let out all the smoke the first time I plugged it in. It's replacement from Luna is still going strong: lesson learned!

 

[tomjasz]

One thing to be aware of is that there are different quality levels of identical looking or even branded Chinese products. I know that both Eric @ Luna and Paul @ EM3ev take the trouble to source the very best versions. I bought a wattmeter on eBay for $10 less than the identical one sold at Luna and it went pop and let out all the smoke the first time I plugged it in. It's replacement from Luna is still going strong: lesson learned!

Luna now has a custom made version with XT90 connectors. Nice custom design!
http://lunacycle.com/extras/dashboards/luna-cycle-watt-meter/

 

[crowblades]

Thank you everyone that replied. I looked into what was said, and yes the law for street travel is 20mph. Tho in the wild west of az what the police say and do really veries on time of month(close to end of monthly quota) and the county. In my undeveloped Chandler/ Queen Creek area there aren't even sidewalks or building's in many areas. Just roads. And an abundance of dirt paths. I have "estimated" 10miles of dirt path with seldom road crossings before I'm forced down to 20mph. And even then what I see that has been gotten away with in plain sight on my commute as a motorcyclists, I'm not convinced they would be a damn about 20 or 25mph.
And for those that had helpful info thank you for sharing what you have learned. And thank you for recomending luna. I really like the page. Im looking to now get the luna v5 motor. Which im assuming is a 1000w. And run it off a 52v 13ah shark or triangle battery. Based of whether or not the triangle fits past the rear suspention on my mongoose ottero. I had originally wanted a leaf motor 1500w. Based on this thread, file:///android_asset/webkit/ and a few YouTube vids, tho I'll admit the thread, I don't fully understand it. I understand it uses larger magnets, and that he speaks way more Cantonese or manderin then I do. If any one can simplify his review I would appreciate it. Tho I like the simple idea of just going with a Luna. Thanks again.

 

[crowblades]

Sry. This is the thread about the leaf motor. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=66489

 

[dogman dan]

The leaf is one example of the larger magnet motor I was talking about. the "1000w kit" motors are usually 28mm. and, would be enough for you to travel 25-30 mph depending on the grade, wind, etc. The leaf is 35 mm wide magnet. The motor has more magnet, and more copper wire winding.

Actually, you don't weigh that much, that's not the problem so much. But you clearly want a bike that performs at the 2000w level more than one that has 1000. That's the real reason I suggest a bigger motor. However, you can also just upgrade both the controller and the battery for more power later if you like, the luna kit motor can take 2000w pretty easily.

But the bigger the magnet, the better the take off, and the more beating they can take before overheating. FWIW, if you need to run efficient, going slow to go farther, there is no particular penalty to the big motor other than just its weight. You can run a huge motor at 200 w just as efficiently as a small one.

I think you can get what you want from the luna kit. But I also see you wanting more, and ending up with the big motor later on. This can cost you, but the up side is having two bikes. You can never have too many e bikes.

As for the cops, a great deal depends on how well they know you. If you are known to them, like for DUI's, keep it legal. If you are an old fart they never had problems with, go for the 30 mph. Anything is likely legal on the dirt anyway, unless it's graded county road.

 

[crowblades]

Who likes one over the other and why?

I'm having a hard time deciding between the two. I'm a heavier person and my travel is split between dirt and hard ball. The power supply will be a shark 52v 13ah. And the controls will be what ever comes in the kit. Recommendations for upgrade parts are welcome. Tho I only have 1k total to spend..

I like the simple installation of the hub motors. Tho is there a benefit to running the motor through the gears? Has anyone snapped a chain using a mid drive? And does anyone have first hand experience riding a mid vs hub?

 

[Rassy]

I'll share my thoughts, but there are many different opinions on the forum, so you will have to sort out what is best for you. Many of us have built multiple rides as we figure out what we really want, and new products become available. My first e-bike was a mid drive cobbled together from a broken scooter that ran on24V 8AH SLA. When that motor burned up the bike was converted to a 36V 8AH SLA brushed hub motor on the front wheel, then a 2 wheel pusher trailer was added for a total of 3 hub motors (needed to get up a 20% grade). Long story short, I've put together over a dozen e-bikes and trikes, and it would be hard for anyone to convince me to use a hub motor at this point.

Of course, if someone is going for a pretend motorcycle, etc. that's not what I'm interested in, just a standard "legal" e-bike.

My current trike has a 500W BBS02 and a 48V 10AH Ping battery. It can get up 20% grades without overheating (low gear). It can get up to 25MPH on the flat. It is efficient and I have no range anxiety because I can pedal it reasonably easy without using the motor. The BBS02 is a relatively new product and has had some reliability issues, but venders such as Paul at em3ev have worked with Bafang to correct some problems, and Paul also works with customers that do have a problem.

I now have two trikes with the BBS02, plus 1 bike I put together for a sister. If I put together another bike or trike for myself or someone else, it will have a BBS02, at least until I see evidence of another mid drive system in the same price range with a better reputation.

A nice feature of the BBS02 is the PAS system with multiple assist levels that allows you to select a gear and set the PAS level for whatever speed you wish to ride at.

One note, I put a Nexus 8 IGH on my sister's bike, which eliminates chain problems that some have experienced. On my recumbent trikes with long chains a regular derailleur works good.

 

[crowblades]

I have a paratrooper pro I'm looking to convert. I only have 1k to spend on the kit. My 15mi travel into work is about split between trails and road. Been reading through the forum and it seems there is a clear line of people that prefer one over the other. I myself am 6'1 235lbs. And not crazy about speed, and Arizona is relatively flat. Tho we have rough mountains that can be a lot of fun. I personally just don't want to burn out a motor or cables if after work I'm too tired to peddle thru trails going home. Currently I'm looking at a hub Luna v5(1000w) off a 52v 13ah shark pack. Would my weight and distance burn up a hub on in average dirt paths?
Also can anyone explains the handling and feel difference between hub and mid drive?

 

[Chalo]

I think just the fact that you're new at this and intend to commute on your bike suggests a hub motor rather than a through-the-gears drive. There's a categorical difference in reliability and durability between the two, because the mid drive is more difficult to set up well, but mostly because in a crank drive the bicycle drivetrain must cope with the combined power and torque of motor and pedals.

A hub motor equipped bike sees no more power through its gears than what you apply at the pedals. There's another less obvious benefit, too-- with two fully redundant drive systems, you can withstand many kinds of mechanical or electrical failure and still get where you're going.

 

[amberwolf]

If you didn't have at least three different threads going about your project, you'd probably get better feedback.

May I merge your threads into the first one you started on it?
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76026&p=1148237#p1148237

 

[crowblades]

Tell me how to delete posts and I'll narrow it down

 

[dogman dan]

Since reliability is important for commutes, and you say your route is flat, I'd go hub motor. It's very reliable, and the direct drive type cools itself well. But don't let that imply that you'd be screwed with a mid drive. You can easily carry a tool to fix a broken chain.

Where a mid drive shines the most, is when the hills are very steep. With a hub motor, you'd have to bother with shifting less, and just ride.

 

[ecycler]

I like both mids and hubs for different reasons and applications. For your intended use, you should definitely go with the dd hub. A BBSHD is out of your budget and your extended commute with combined weight and long term high speeds will be hard on a BBS02 if you do not gear it properly. Additionally, you will be constantly changing out chains and rear clusters because the smaller gears will wear out quickly which will be in primary use for commuting and have the least number of teeth so they wear inordinately faster.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Hub. And the one you've found would likely have been in the list if you'd asked for recommendations.

Hubs make a bike a little tail heavy, and they don't have as much torque, but they can take more power, cruse more efficiently, and cruise silently. And hub motors can take an absolute beating. they can generally take many times their rated power for short durations. They have 1 moving part, so there is nothing to wear out. The motor should out live your grandchildren.

Mid drives make more torque per watt, but generally have less top end power. they make more noise, and they have many wear parts. Even the simplest, most well designed systems like the BBS02 are more complicated to install than a hub motor. And putting more than 1 horse power through the same equipment designed for just 1 human power will greatly accelerate the rate it wears out at.

Generally, Hub motors make reliable commuters, or reliable extreme high power monster.
Mid drives are for casual weekend bikes, cargo bikes, and hill climbers.