When to pedal

[YoSamES]

I saw a reply on a beginner topic, I think maybe Dogman Dan made the reply. It was something like, "get a hubmotor, and when you get to 15 MPH, start pedaling".

I really don't know when it's most important to pedal for the benefit of the motor, controller, batteries, and range. Obviously, the more the rider pedals, the better for all of those things. I am or was under the impression that starting from a stop was when pedaling was a big help. But, does that matter much in the real world?

I try to make sure I'm pedaling at startup, and up any hill of any consequence. Otherwise I just pedal to get exercise as desired. Should I just pedal when I feel like it, or should I be sure to pedal at startup and up hills?

 

[MrDude_1]

depends on the bike.

On the overpowered bikes I like, pedaling doesnt matter. The amount of energy you can put in through the pedals is tiny compared to the motor.

on a low power bike, pedaling from a stop will get you up to speed faster, and pedaling while moving will help you go faster too. the motor is just helping make things easier, not doing them for you.

Now, on a mid powered bike, geared(or wound or volted) for speed... pedaling from a stop will get it up to speed faster.. since it accelerates slowly.. but if that same bike is geared/wound for torque, it may pull away so fast that pedaling doesnt matter as much... but it will only go so fast.

 

[amberwolf]

Does your system have a problem at any particular speed, either heating up or slowing down under motor only, or with a lot of voltage sag of the pack, or not getting to the speed you want, etc?

Or does it not have the range you expect/want?

If not, there's no reason you *have* to pedal.


Depending on your motor system's power usage, pedalling may make no difference at all to anything--for instance, if you're always using hundreds of watts, sometimes over a thousand or two, typical human pedalling input of 50-100w is probably not gonna change anything.

If your setup is only a couple hundred watts to start with, then pedalling is a significant additional input to that, so it could make a big difference to speed, range, and/or motor heating/voltage sag.



In my case, more like the former, I don't pedal unless I have to, because it hurts and I'd rather not--that's why I put the motor on there to start with.

(I do "ghost pedal" when riding on sidewalks and bike paths, but that's rare as I almost always use the roads, since they are generally safer and easier to use for commuting and grocerygetting, etc, for the most part).

 

[Alan B]

Pedaling from a stop and on hills helps the motor in its least efficient zone.

Pedaling at full speed helps the motor when it is already running most efficiently.

If you have to choose one or the other, startup and hills will have the most overall impact, if the energy input is equal. It will also lower the motor temperature. And it is less overall work than pedaling hard all the time.

One example, climbing a steep hill where the motor slows way down. If you don't pedal and help the motor out on a steep grade, it will overheat and fail. Pedaling at the 200W level may not be sufficient, this may require pedaling at the 500-600W level to get the motor speed up enough for it to be efficient. This additional rider input makes the motor more efficient, so there is a compound return on investment.

It is efficient for the rider to pedal in short spurts, and it reduces sweating which may be undesirable for things like commuting. In between sprints the rider can rest. In a short spurt I see about 600 watts contributed to the bike. That makes a noticeable difference even on a fairly high powered motor. For example, going up a steep hill at 15 mph with motor alone, I note the power required. Then I pedal hard and reduce throttle to maintain the same speed. The motor power drops and I can see the difference that I am contributing.

For a lower power motor this can easily double the power during low speed operation. During high speed operation the rider input doesn't help as much since both the motor power drops off and the wind resistance eats it up. Still, it saves the battery, but considering the longer term required it is difficult to add more than 200W, and it makes the rider hot and sweaty to operate at that level.

 

[Eskimo]

It does not matter if your pedaling does not matter, because it still matters. How much pedaling that spinning bike at your home matters on your top speed? Still many people do that.
It"s much more fun to pedal with full real life changing panorama. Personally i do the opposite, i start with throttle and start pedaling after few meters, because PAS does not kick in right away. Sometimes i might ride with motor power only short periods if i"m very tired after 100km or something. Pedaling is fun if it does not hurt. My rear cassette after the 3500km:

 

[dogman dan]

Not sure what the context of my comment was.

But if you don't want to shift, and have a bike geared to still be pedaled at 30 mph, then throttle till you can pedal, at about 15 mph would be one way to go. You get to stay in that crazy high gear, but don't break your chain trying to get moving.

Or, if you are sick, knee is shot, or whatever makes you unable to pedal much, you can still get some benefit by spinning. In that case, the hard pedaling when getting started could be avoided. I'm doing much better now, but 3 years ago spinning when above 15 mph was about all I could handle without making myself sick all over again. So then I was never pedaling to start up. I couldn't do it.

But if you want to help the motor, pedal hard till you get to 15 mph, then if you are geared for it, continue to pedal the whole ride.

The very most efficient way to ride for me, is 15-18 mph. Slow to keep air resistance lower, but not intolerably slow like typical unassisted riders go. You pedal every inch of the ride, if you can. Most bikes are geared for at least 18 mph, except for single speed beach cruisers and trikes. They are geared for 12 mph.

Pick a gear for your target speed, pedal, then apply just enough throttle to make your effort easy, no more than 100w from you. Maintain a consistent speed and cadence, but use the pedal pressure on your foot to judge when to apply throttle.

 

[Brentis]

When to pedal?

When the cops are looking!

 

[docnjoj]

If you want decent exercise, pedal all the time on level and uphill. It is then really simple. Even cops know you don't have to pedal downhill.
otherDoc

 

[LewTwo]

When to pedal?

When the cops are looking!

When the battery is dead

 

[The fingers]

I always pedal from a stop, on hills, when I see the fuzz, and when the battery fizzles out.
Since the battery is old, pretty much all the time. :lol:

 

[turbo1889]

I personally pedal almost always and I have to be really tired in order to not pedal.

There was a gentleman on another forum (general bicycling forum with an e-bike sub-section) who actually worked out the math for one of his build and found that in general unless your legs are inside of an aero-shell once you get up to speeds beyond 25-30 mph the extra air resistance cause by actively pedaling rather then keeping your legs in a tightly tucked racing position actually cancels out or more then cancels out normal 100-150 watt human pedal power input and he was actually able to confirm it with his build (which was capable of high speed) that the motor actually pulled more watts (he had a very precise power draw metering system attached for his tests) when he pedaled then when he didn't due to the extra air resistance more then making up for his pedal power input once he went faster then a certain speed level.

Granted his build had the geometry to really allow him to tuck in tight when not pedaling like one of those ninja type motorcycles but still its my understanding that without an aero-shell surrounding your legs there does come a point when your going fast enough that the extra air-resistance cause by actively pedaling more then cancels out the energy put in by pedaling.

If I had to go with only one pedaling gear ratio I would make it a low gearing ratio for pedaling along with the motor when starting up and when slowed down due to going up-hill.

 

[USAEBIKECO]

I usually pedal to get the bike going. Saves a ton of energy. Then I pedal along with the motor.

 

[wesnewell]

I start pedalling at ~1mph and continue until about 16mph when I find it an exercise in futility. that's with 44T/14T gearing. I don't pedal hard and and haven't had to replace anything in 10K miles except BB bearings once early.

 

[dogman dan]

Even in an aero shell, or drafting another rider, by 30 mph your 100w is only 10% of the 1000w being used. So not a very big effect on range, and arguably no effect with wind drag.

If you run the same speed, and see the watts drop on your CA, then it's helping. But at 30 mph, I never see much more than a 50w drop when I pedal. At 20 mph, I typically see about 100w less on the CA when I pedal.

Or you can just pedal with the same throttle setting, and add 1-2 mph, if geared for it at that speed.

Without a CA, if you can't feel the pressure on your feet when you pedal, you aren't extending your range any.

If you are geared tall enough to pedal going 30 mph, do so. Great exercise, spinning out 100w mile after mile. But no need to huff and puff. Just ride easy, but still feel that pressure on your feet.

If you are not geared tall enough, pedal till you can't feel the pressure on your feet, and get some exercise. Not much, but better than nada.

On dirt, it can be completely different. I ride hard trails, and just steering and hanging on at 15 mph is quite a challenge. You have to not crash, since off the trail is all cactus and rocks. On dirt, I pick a low gear. I pedal when the motor starts to stall, or if I'm just in the mood for a slow cruise up the hill. But mostly I don't pedal, and just stand on the pedals riding trials style at about 15 mph. then pedal if I slow up too much on a steep bit. Just riding without pedaling is a hell of a workout on this kind of single track trail.

 

[TheBeastie]

Pedaling can help with control of the ebike in general mostly if you use a PAS sensor.
Having to have your fingers on throttle and handlebars and breaks at the same time doesn't work well in general.

There have been the occasional post on here saying their throttle broke and was stuck in WOT (wide open throttle) mode.. Because PAS uses a pulsating signal there is a much lower chance of something going wrong in this area and also your hands are free to do nothing but have them concentrated on pulling your brakes and steering..
*Edit* Yes motorcycles have throttle control but at the same time youtube is riddled with folks loosing control of their bikes like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BdQALADSok

We will never know exactly what happened to this poor guy but its hard to argue odds are he would of been better off without a throttle on his ebike and instead just has PAS. It does appear he hit the back of a parked car with a considerable amount of speed.
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/beach-675463-police-newport.html

http://images.onset.freedom.com/ocregister/nshatt-b88476800z.120150802163209000gbgb7egj.20.jpg
http://images.onset.freedom.com/ocregister/nshatu-b88476800z.120150802163209000gbgb7efq.10.jpg

 

[MrDude_1]

Pedaling can help with control of the ebike in general mostly if you use a PAS sensor.
Having to have your fingers on throttle and handlebars and breaks at the same time doesn't work well in general.

This sounds logical and everything.. right up until you say it to a motorcyclist. Maybe I am super special, but I can brake, under control, so hard that the CG is the limiting factor.. WHILE also working the clutch, downshifting multiple gears, and watching my turn in points. there are thousands of other sportbike riders that do the same thing.
No. If you cant work a throttle and brakes and steer... you you need to practice until you can, or you shouldnt be on any motorized two wheel vehicle...

There have been the occasional post on here saying their throttle broke and was stuck in WOT (wide open throttle) mode.. Because PAS uses a pulsating signal there is a much lower chance of something going wrong in this area and also your hands are free to do nothing but have them concentrated on pulling your brakes and steering..

This is why every ebike should have a reliable on/off button on the handlebar.. just like every motorcycle has a kill switch there.

 

[TheBeastie]

Pedaling can help with control of the ebike in general mostly if you use a PAS sensor.
Having to have your fingers on throttle and handlebars and breaks at the same time doesn't work well in general.

This sounds logical and everything.. right up until you say it to a motorcyclist. Maybe I am super special, but I can brake, under control, so hard that the CG is the limiting factor.. WHILE also working the clutch, downshifting multiple gears, and watching my turn in points. there are thousands of other sportbike riders that do the same thing.
No. If you cant work a throttle and brakes and steer... you you need to practice until you can, or you shouldnt be on any motorized two wheel vehicle...
.

I was going to not spell this out on my last post but I guess I have to..
The internet is completely riddled with experienced motorbike riders loosing control of their bikes due to the use of their throttle..
https://youtu.be/Ca7gEchrAKU?t=83
https://youtu.be/SksS1_EcxjU?t=94
Sure its possible to control the bike that way but its more important to focus down on the fact that it's generally harder then compared to a PAS setup.. There has been a report that a pedestrian was killed by an ebiker and its logical that the numbers will increase over time, but its more important to aim for a lower amount of people getting hurt instead of just trying to ignore facts, every little bit helps...
With ebikes its also considerably more important to look at this fact since no one is required to get a drivers licence to operate their ebike compared to a motorcycle.
There are just tons of these motorcycle fail compilations on youtube and so many without even trying tend to be throttle control related.. And a lot of these guys are obviously experienced.
[youtube]Ca7gEchrAKU[/youtube]

 

[MrDude_1]

I was going to not spell this out on my last post but I guess I have to..
The internet is completely riddled with experienced motorbike riders loosing control of their bikes due to the use of their throttle..

Sure its possible to control the bike that way but its more important to focus down on the fact that it's generally harder then compared to a PAS setup..
With ebikes its also considerably more important to look at this fact since no one is required to get a drivers licence to operate their ebike compared to a motorcycle.
There are just tons of these motorcycle fail compilations on youtube and so many without even trying tend to be throttle control related.. And a lot of these guys are obviously experienced.

Yes the internet is full of fail videos of idiots. You can not save people from themselves.
If you can not work the basic controls of the vehicle you are on, you should learn it, or quit it. Same for cars.
There are 100 times more stupid driver videos too. your hyperbole proves nothing.

Yes, a PAS setup is simpler.. its also of no interest to alot of us. Its not the only way to do things.


The fact is, most people never take any kind of formal rider training. They dont read books on the subject of driving or riding. They dont know how to look far ahead, look through turns. They never take a moment to improve their ability to operate a vehicle. 99% of all motor vehicle accidents are preventible by paying attention, and getting vehicle control down.

Hell, most people dont even know that the front brake will stop you faster than the rear.




edit: by the way, this is completely off topic, and judging by your sig, Its YOUR topic for your little crusade. Dont de-rail this thread, make your own.

 

[Alan B]

I have plenty of motorcycle experience and bicycle experience, and pedaling reduces the precision of bike control. It induces a small wobble into the bike. I can control more precisely when not pedaling, especially when not tired from pedaling.

Braking, Clutching and shifting simultaneously, as well as talking on a 2 way radio with a thumb button PTT are no problem on a motorcycle, I've done it for years. It is safer than doing similar in a car because everything is right at your finger and toe-tips, engineered for control without looking. But if you are putting out enough energy to propel a bicycle it affects your stability, your vision, and it makes you tired. Pedaling hard can easily make you forget to look where you are going. It happens all the time with bicycles crashing into parked cars, etc. When bicyclists are tired, and tired leads to loss of attention, accidents happen. The severity is usually lower as the speed is less.

PAS would be better since you would not be pushing as hard, or as tired, but there is still wobble. It is small, but not zero. The bike moves a bit. When I have a precision maneuver to make I stop pedaling. Not to say it cannot be done, but it works better to stop wiggling the system especially during tight turns when the pedals would hit, which can be very dangerous. Requiring pedaling to maintain power through a turn is dangerous.

 

[LewTwo]

Pas vs throttle control. Why does this sound familiar ?
Automatic vs Standard transmission = "...for safety reasons every car of the future will have an automatic transmission...."
It did not happen .... yet.

 

[amberwolf]

Pedaling can help with control of the ebike in general mostly if you use a PAS sensor.

That would depend on the PAS setup.

If you're using something that has no delay in it, either for on or for off, and a fine resolution in the sensor so a tiny pedal movement will make a tiny motor reaction, and a big (hard) one will make a bigger motor reaction, then that would probably be true.

But at least some PAS systems have large delays in the system, and very low resolution in the sensor, and no proportional control. So they make take a second or two to either start the motor after you start pedalling, and another second or two to stop the motor after you stop pedalling, and when it does react it is full power, of whatever power level you programmed it to or set in it's display (if it has one). Some can have that level changed on the fly by a separate control button(s) on the bars or the display, but it's not something you can quickly do when you have a sudden need to raise or lower it, unlike with a throttle.


My Fusin setup is like that, and many of the systems discussed here on ES over the years, for troubleshooting, look like the same type of hardware and reaction limitations.



Also, though this probably doesn't make as much difference in reaction time as the controller's PAS design, your legs are a lot farther from your brain than your hands, and so the reaction time of the muscles is longer, so hypothetically you should have better reaction time and control using your hands than your feet.

Given equal system reaction times, I don't know how much the nerve time/distance would affect the control of the vehicle.

 

[MrDude_1]

well if we're going to talk about it anyway.. he left off the big one.

on a properly setup ebike, applying the brakes will cut power to the motor. that's what the brake inputs are for.
that alone makes his initial argument moot. never mind the fact that there are TWO brake inputs.. (redundancy)
and the argument that one input is safer? a lot of PAS are low resolution and could be "faked" by an intermittent connection.