Why fat tires on a street ebike?
- Thread starter classicalgas
- Start date
Balmorhea said:
? Maybe where you are, the fat tire bikers have grey beards, but it isn't what I see here.
On the other hand, it seems like kind of an accomplishment, if someone with a busted and useless bicycle can ride around on it and enjoy it, and you can imagine how great they must be when (like mine) they aren't busted and useless. Particularly great platform for an electric motor, in my experience.
MadRhino
100 GW
Recumbents are weird rides. Efficient but dangerous to ride in city trafic, winter especially. 
Then, fat bikes are not that good either on slushy winter streets, despite being made specifically for snow riding. They float badly sometimes. The best tires I have used for winter commuting were the Nokian Hakka and also the Gazzaloddi. I still ride the Gazzaloddi on the front since I have found some new old stock, and avoid riding them on the rear, to make them last. I have studded myself some Hutchinson hard Coyote mud tires for the rear. Those are slicing slush and snow pretty good to find a grip on pavement.
Winter commuting with a fast ebike is tricky with various weather making very different surface qualities. Some days you need to ride heavy on the front like motorcyle ice racing. Some other your bike rides like sh*t on a start and gets better with speed... And when you come back in the afternoon, the streets are clean and you’d want to ride without the studs. This is almost over for me, since I am doing less winter mileage every year, spending more time on ski slopes and wilderness.
Then, fat bikes are not that good either on slushy winter streets, despite being made specifically for snow riding. They float badly sometimes. The best tires I have used for winter commuting were the Nokian Hakka and also the Gazzaloddi. I still ride the Gazzaloddi on the front since I have found some new old stock, and avoid riding them on the rear, to make them last. I have studded myself some Hutchinson hard Coyote mud tires for the rear. Those are slicing slush and snow pretty good to find a grip on pavement.
Winter commuting with a fast ebike is tricky with various weather making very different surface qualities. Some days you need to ride heavy on the front like motorcyle ice racing. Some other your bike rides like sh*t on a start and gets better with speed... And when you come back in the afternoon, the streets are clean and you’d want to ride without the studs. This is almost over for me, since I am doing less winter mileage every year, spending more time on ski slopes and wilderness.
dogman dan
1 PW
People ride fat bikes on street to look cool, that's for sure.
Back in the 80's I lived in a trailer slum where the road to the slum was a half mile of sandy road. We pretty much gave up riding bikes altogether, then tried mountain bikes when they came out. Still sucked on that road. Didn't take up riding again till years later when the road got paved.
I would have rode a fattie then, if they had em. But I bet very few of those guys looking cool on their fat bike have a sand driveway half a mile long.
Different story maybe, if you live in Telluride, or Crested Butte. But I'd have a summer bike if I lived there.
Back in the 80's I lived in a trailer slum where the road to the slum was a half mile of sandy road. We pretty much gave up riding bikes altogether, then tried mountain bikes when they came out. Still sucked on that road. Didn't take up riding again till years later when the road got paved.
I would have rode a fattie then, if they had em. But I bet very few of those guys looking cool on their fat bike have a sand driveway half a mile long.
Different story maybe, if you live in Telluride, or Crested Butte. But I'd have a summer bike if I lived there.
MadRhino
100 GW
Loose surfaces are calling for supple, large volume tires. That is the reason for fat bikes of course. And the better they are at it, the worse they are on pavement.
Pavement, even hard pack off road, are calling for stiff tires. You don’t want your tire sidewalls rippled in cornering, acceleration and braking. You don’t want them to pop off the rim either, hence the need for a wire bead clincher tire construction when riding fast and/or aggressively.
With new microfibers that are coming close to steel stiffness yet light enough to incorporate in bicycle tire construction, I have no doubt that a good radial bicycle tire is coming in a near future. A 4 ply radial bicycle tire is possible at a reasonable weight, only not at a reasonable cost for now.
Pavement, even hard pack off road, are calling for stiff tires. You don’t want your tire sidewalls rippled in cornering, acceleration and braking. You don’t want them to pop off the rim either, hence the need for a wire bead clincher tire construction when riding fast and/or aggressively.
With new microfibers that are coming close to steel stiffness yet light enough to incorporate in bicycle tire construction, I have no doubt that a good radial bicycle tire is coming in a near future. A 4 ply radial bicycle tire is possible at a reasonable weight, only not at a reasonable cost for now.
I have an Electra Lux Fat 7D with 3.5-inch "mid-fat" tires, using a street tread. When they wear out, I will likely replace them with the same.
I dont ride fast, maybe 20-MPH continuous, and 30-MPH to get away from texting drivers. I also don't ride in ice or snow. If I lived in frequent snow or near the beach, I would gladly have a second ebike with 2WD and 4.0-inch tires.
I have ridden many different ebikes, and I have found that for the street, the 3.5-inch work well to soften the ride, plus I have bailed out onto the sidewalk a few times without any damage to the tubes or trims due to a curb hit.
The 4.0 inch and larger tires feel a little too squishy for me when used on the street.
If someone wanted a dual-use ebike, Karl recommended a fat frame, using fat tires in the snow, and 29'r wheels for the rest of the year with 3.0-inch tires for off-road...
I dont ride fast, maybe 20-MPH continuous, and 30-MPH to get away from texting drivers. I also don't ride in ice or snow. If I lived in frequent snow or near the beach, I would gladly have a second ebike with 2WD and 4.0-inch tires.
I have ridden many different ebikes, and I have found that for the street, the 3.5-inch work well to soften the ride, plus I have bailed out onto the sidewalk a few times without any damage to the tubes or trims due to a curb hit.
The 4.0 inch and larger tires feel a little too squishy for me when used on the street.
If someone wanted a dual-use ebike, Karl recommended a fat frame, using fat tires in the snow, and 29'r wheels for the rest of the year with 3.0-inch tires for off-road...
donn said:
Fatbike tires are almost all thin-walled, so they are easy to puncture with small objects like goatheads and glass chips. However, they are used at such low pressure that they often don’t push hard enough on a small sharp to make it penetrate.
Anecdotally, I don’t see as many fatbike flats in the shop as I see fatbikes represented on the street. I can’t really draw any conclusions from that, but it’s consistent for as long as there have been fatbikes around.
markz
100 TW
Well maybe the fat bike riders are using the tubeless tires and rims. Everyone just raves about going tubeless and they all seem to rave that "Oh its the best, we get no flats". Then you gotta deal with all that mess when something does happen.
Balmorhea said:
The wider the tire, the more likely they are to encounter something on the path, because they cover more of it.donn said:
Also, the few that I"ve had direct experience with are very thin, compared to more typical bicycle tires, so even a small goathead could easily go all the way thru the tire into the tube. Mesquite thorns (several times as long) would probably do much more damage, as nails might.
(Even the moped tires I'm using have been fully punctured by a mesquite thorn, which is much more like a very sharp wooden needle nail than a thorn)
BTW, since this is a good discussion on these wheels/tires:
I'm considering a new trike build, based on SB Cruiser, still with no suspension, but using much larger diameter wheels to provide a better ride over the mildly bad road sections we have, vs the 20" (22" actual diameter) rear wheels Im using now.
The 26" front wheel with about 2.5" (CST City) tire on the front has been fine, for the most part, but the rear end houses the dog(s) or cargo, up to 350lbs+. So with the small wheels, and a load, it's a harsh ride.
Adding suspension is complicated and heavy and takes too much space away from the cargo area, or else raises up the cargo bed higher, depending on the design, so larger wheels to roll over stuff easier seems a simpler and better approach.
More air volume should give better suspension in this situation, AFAIK. So...the Origin8 Supercell, based on it's pedicab usage, should work well enough. The only worry I would have would be flat resistance, against standard road debris (particularly short nails, mesquite thorns, goatheads, broken glass, steel-belted-tire wire bits, and broken plastics from car bodies. (generally I am unable to avoid any of these when riding in traffic, as there isnt' anywhere for me to go)
Then, rims suitable for this type of usage scenario. I'm likely to keep using large hubmotors in the rear wheels, for simplicity, but if I could find a reliable cheap peerless differential that I could adapt to using on the trike, and other suitable components to put something like a QS205 as a reliable middrive, I'd consider using "regular" (pedicab) wheels instead.
I'm considering a new trike build, based on SB Cruiser, still with no suspension, but using much larger diameter wheels to provide a better ride over the mildly bad road sections we have, vs the 20" (22" actual diameter) rear wheels Im using now.
The 26" front wheel with about 2.5" (CST City) tire on the front has been fine, for the most part, but the rear end houses the dog(s) or cargo, up to 350lbs+. So with the small wheels, and a load, it's a harsh ride.
Adding suspension is complicated and heavy and takes too much space away from the cargo area, or else raises up the cargo bed higher, depending on the design, so larger wheels to roll over stuff easier seems a simpler and better approach.
More air volume should give better suspension in this situation, AFAIK. So...the Origin8 Supercell, based on it's pedicab usage, should work well enough. The only worry I would have would be flat resistance, against standard road debris (particularly short nails, mesquite thorns, goatheads, broken glass, steel-belted-tire wire bits, and broken plastics from car bodies. (generally I am unable to avoid any of these when riding in traffic, as there isnt' anywhere for me to go)
Then, rims suitable for this type of usage scenario. I'm likely to keep using large hubmotors in the rear wheels, for simplicity, but if I could find a reliable cheap peerless differential that I could adapt to using on the trike, and other suitable components to put something like a QS205 as a reliable middrive, I'd consider using "regular" (pedicab) wheels instead.
I have a BBSHD on a steel hardtail 27.5+ bike. Currently running the WTB tires that came with the bike when I bought it, set up tubeless. I have around 600 miles on the bike, generally running mostly on pedal assist on bike paths and roads. I always have at least one fairly heavy pannier on and sometimes 2 with a whole lot of beer weight on board.
If I'm messing around and trying to go fast down long downhills (usually just coasting) I can get up to 32-35ish before the bike starts to feel a bit squirrely and I want to slow down (no beer weight on speed runs). I only hit these speeds on streets where I'm occupying the entire lane and basically behaving as a car.
I run my tires at around 25 psi and enjoy the cushion they provide for general city riding. I have a 17ah battery and have never found the limit. I can make a 15 mile roundtrip with some pretty serious hills using less than half the battery capacity. But I pedal the whole time, use the throttle rarely, and spend most of my time in PAS 2-3.
So my experience is just one data point. I don't think I'd like 4" tires, but I also believe that depending on use case, wider tires can make for a more comfortable ride for those of us that are using bikes as car alternatives.
If I'm messing around and trying to go fast down long downhills (usually just coasting) I can get up to 32-35ish before the bike starts to feel a bit squirrely and I want to slow down (no beer weight on speed runs). I only hit these speeds on streets where I'm occupying the entire lane and basically behaving as a car.
I run my tires at around 25 psi and enjoy the cushion they provide for general city riding. I have a 17ah battery and have never found the limit. I can make a 15 mile roundtrip with some pretty serious hills using less than half the battery capacity. But I pedal the whole time, use the throttle rarely, and spend most of my time in PAS 2-3.
So my experience is just one data point. I don't think I'd like 4" tires, but I also believe that depending on use case, wider tires can make for a more comfortable ride for those of us that are using bikes as car alternatives.
MadRhino
100 GW
Different usage - different tires
Shouldn’t have to say this.
When you build a wheel size that has a large variety of tires to choose from, there is no reason not to find the best tire for your ride.
Different terrain - different puncture proofing requirements.
When we are lucky to ride thousands of miles without a flat, It is difficult to imagine the places where it is hard to have only one a week.
Generally, bigger tires with low PSI are a lower risk. I say generally, because there are places where it doesn’t help. The worst cases, I recommend riding tubeless with the best foam inserts and a lot of automotive grade slime. Most of flats then are plugged by the slime, and those that aren’t still let you ride home without further damage. This solution is much lighter than going motorcycle wheels. Moto wheels are very heavy, but cheaper to ride than bicycle grade. For this reason, they are an acceptable compromise for some who are riding in high puncture risk areas.
Shouldn’t have to say this.
When you build a wheel size that has a large variety of tires to choose from, there is no reason not to find the best tire for your ride.
Different terrain - different puncture proofing requirements.
When we are lucky to ride thousands of miles without a flat, It is difficult to imagine the places where it is hard to have only one a week.
Generally, bigger tires with low PSI are a lower risk. I say generally, because there are places where it doesn’t help. The worst cases, I recommend riding tubeless with the best foam inserts and a lot of automotive grade slime. Most of flats then are plugged by the slime, and those that aren’t still let you ride home without further damage. This solution is much lighter than going motorcycle wheels. Moto wheels are very heavy, but cheaper to ride than bicycle grade. For this reason, they are an acceptable compromise for some who are riding in high puncture risk areas.
markz
100 TW
HD motorcycle tubes are very robust, I purchased one today and installed it and its very very robust, heavy and very thick wall rubber. I cant imagine how robust a UHD tube would be. Tire spoon levers are good to have too, but a 19" motorcycle rim does not equate to 24" bicycle tire, I tried putting on a 26x4 bicycle tire on a 19" moped rim and it wasnt even close. I had a 24x2 bicycle tire and it wasnt even close on 19" moped rim. I had always thought a 19" motorcycle rim would fit 24" bicycle tire from googling. It really makes me wonder what a 21" motorcycle rim would fit in terms of a bicycle tire, before I would have guessed 27 or 28" bicycle realm, but it maybe 26.
Could have meant the other way around, 24" bicycle rim fits 19" moped tire.
https://www.electricbike.com/moped-rims-tires-hubmotors/
Could have meant the other way around, 24" bicycle rim fits 19" moped tire.
https://www.electricbike.com/moped-rims-tires-hubmotors/
dogman dan
1 PW
Saukit.
It sounds to me like your frame starts to high speed wobble at around 30 mph,, Many bike frames do. They start flexing from side to side too much. I don't think its the tires keeping you from going faster. Its the side to side stiffness of the frame, as well as other factors like wheelbase length, angles at the headset and fork, and also the type of rear rack you have, and how stiff it is when it is loaded on the heavier side.
RE goat heads, thick tube is all you need for that. Even big ones are just not that long. Mesquite thorns I have seen go in the bottom and out the top of tubes, just like a nail can.
It sounds to me like your frame starts to high speed wobble at around 30 mph,, Many bike frames do. They start flexing from side to side too much. I don't think its the tires keeping you from going faster. Its the side to side stiffness of the frame, as well as other factors like wheelbase length, angles at the headset and fork, and also the type of rear rack you have, and how stiff it is when it is loaded on the heavier side.
RE goat heads, thick tube is all you need for that. Even big ones are just not that long. Mesquite thorns I have seen go in the bottom and out the top of tubes, just like a nail can.
classicalgas
100 W
- Joined
- May 14, 2016
- Messages
- 138
"No, I mean graybeards in the 80s and 90s rode busted, useless recumbents and couldn't admit they sucked,..."
Awww...did wedgie get passed by a graybeard on a 'bent?
Awww...did wedgie get passed by a graybeard on a 'bent?
I was thinking it might be something more personal. You know, those seats kind of abuse an area that contains blood vessels, potentially leading to some loss of function ... Meanwhile, recumbent riders pedaling around, and you know they aren't going to have that problem. Maybe your wife knows that too. I don't know, I could see how it might get to you. Of course they're rubbing it in all the time - never directly, they're just going on about how vastly more comfortable it is for their asses and their necks and their hands and so forth - but you know what they're thinking.
MadRhino
100 GW
Long time ago my wife asked me what kind of bike she should buy, to accompany me in my rides.donn said:
I said: What about a trailer?
classicalgas said:
Joe Kochanowski used to outrun my first e-bike on his fully faired ‘bent, but then my first e-bike was only good for about 18mph on a fresh charge. In Seattle, in addition to the odd old dude, there was also a nearly spherical woman I saw once in a while, riding her ‘bent and wearing spandex kit. No beard on her.
Now I’m back in central Austin, where the last time I saw a recumbent was for sale at a swap meet sometime last year. No takers, of course.
Recumbent buffs sure love to tell fairy tales about how good ‘bents are. If they were even half true, there would be a whole lot more ‘bents, though.
Balmorhea said:
"How good" recumbents are, is more or less a matter of objective fact when you get down to details. Whether they're your thing, is a matter of what you like. Whether the masses go for something, is one of those things that isn't really going to tell you anything useful. While riding my old Ryan Vanguard yesterday afternoon, I had a variety of thoughts about it, but none of them was anything like "is this any good? It must not be, or it would be more popular! I wish I were bashing my crotch hunched over on an upright, like all the people who didn't make this terrible mistake!"
Same goes for fat tires. Whether there are or aren't a lot of fat tires riding around, really doesn't tell us much we need to know. If sales went up and then went down substantially, that might be a clue. Conversely if they continue to overtake ordinary tires, we might have to ask if there's something in it.
If you know running shoes (I don't), you might or might not see an analogy with a running shoe company "Hoka One One", that had a big hit years ago with a shoe that sat on top of a huge cushion sole. Like running on air. I expect to look that up and see that they fizzled after a while, but no, it seems to be going strong. It was supposedly a reaction to "minimal" shoes with thin soles, which also seem to be holding on. (Not so much the "toe" shoes subsegment, which seems to have withered a bit.) Minimal shoes may have been a little oversold on health benefits, but there's some objective science in it, and I dare say there's less support for the idea that a deep cushion sole is so good for you. But of course, people aren't scientists.
MadRhino
100 GW
Recumbents are more a matter of ‘where’ than ‘why’.
I mean, they are interesting for efficiency and comfort on long rides, no doubt about it. Yet, one would need to have a very sore ass to prefer a bent in city trafic with low visibility and stops every corner.
I mean, they are interesting for efficiency and comfort on long rides, no doubt about it. Yet, one would need to have a very sore ass to prefer a bent in city trafic with low visibility and stops every corner.
classicalgas
100 W
- Joined
- May 14, 2016
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- 138
"Recumbent buffs sure love to tell fairy tales about how good ‘bents are. If they were even half true, there would be a whole lot more ‘bents, though."
You do know that the UCI banned incumbents when they started to dominate bike racing?( in 1934) Roadies like to imagine they are training for competition (admittedly, some of them are) so they're stuck with wedgies.
No wedgie (streamlined or otherwise) has held any human powered speed record in any class where recumbents are allowed (other than the silly ones where you draft a race car) in several decades.
Some people take longer than others to realize that putting most of your weight on the nerves that make your genitals work (and the rest on your wrists) is a bad idea, but road uprights are an artifact of racing rules, following the herd, and having to deal with two ton, eight foot high motor vehicles steered by cell phone impaired nitwits.
Off pavement is a little different, I doubt a bent would do well in "north shore" style off road or downhill MTB racing, but recumbent electric trikes dominated the e-bike classes of Pikes Peak until they were banned.
You do know that the UCI banned incumbents when they started to dominate bike racing?( in 1934) Roadies like to imagine they are training for competition (admittedly, some of them are) so they're stuck with wedgies.
No wedgie (streamlined or otherwise) has held any human powered speed record in any class where recumbents are allowed (other than the silly ones where you draft a race car) in several decades.
Some people take longer than others to realize that putting most of your weight on the nerves that make your genitals work (and the rest on your wrists) is a bad idea, but road uprights are an artifact of racing rules, following the herd, and having to deal with two ton, eight foot high motor vehicles steered by cell phone impaired nitwits.
Off pavement is a little different, I doubt a bent would do well in "north shore" style off road or downhill MTB racing, but recumbent electric trikes dominated the e-bike classes of Pikes Peak until they were banned.
MadRhino
100 GW
Makes me want to trade all my chairs for transats.
But I feel on a bike like on a horse. Centered, straight, balanced, in full control, in city trafic or mtb trails especially. My genitals and wrists are still working good at 73, thanks. 8)
Bents have this in common with fat bikes: They are specialty bikes, especially good for their specialty but handicaped everywhere else.
But I feel on a bike like on a horse. Centered, straight, balanced, in full control, in city trafic or mtb trails especially. My genitals and wrists are still working good at 73, thanks. 8)
Bents have this in common with fat bikes: They are specialty bikes, especially good for their specialty but handicaped everywhere else.
