A123 20Ah Quebec Group buy(Canada) cells ARRIVED 24.57$/cell

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Brokerage fees are speciality of couriers for sure UPS infamous for making money on this rather more than on shipping itself.
Fees are inflated and almost criminal in amount. So couriers are big NO NO if you ship to Canada, sometimes I have cases that Brokerage radiculos fees were higher than cost of merchendise.
I refuse to buy from USA if no USPS is offered.
From other countries only Post Offices.
From USA to Canada USPS is way to go = NO BROKERAGE FEES.
 
Update March 26:

Ok, yesterday i was a little busy because while i was making a test on trhe cells my friend Jean-Luc called me for helping him for his Dual Enertrac, A123, Kelly GSX-R1100 conversion and i comeback at 2Am... we succeded to connect everything to make the motor an kelly to work properly together with all customs connections. So i cameback to home i was finally able to have one cell tested ( capacity tested at 1C)

The first cell gave me 19.235Ah at 1C ( charged at 3.65V and cut at 2.0V) according to my CBA III
But during the test, my computer had a shutdown due to &?&*?%& avira antivirus update that trigged a shutdown while my CBA was testing the cell! :roll:
So the first part of the discharge gave me 12.556Ah and then when i discharged it next for the last part i got 6.679Ah for a total of 19.235Ah

Also I also toke care of monitoring the current with my accurate FLUKE 337 DC clamp meter 8) and while the CBA was showing 20A, my fluke indicated 19.7 wich mean that the CBA is 1.5% optimistic.. so if i correct the data that give 19.235 x 0.985 = 18.95Ah wich is not bad :wink:


The test was done at 22 degree C.

This is the first cell i sampled over the 180 cell batch.

I made a video while i was making the test to show you the setup:

[youtube]ZtQvmURq3nQ[/youtube]

Doc
 
Here is the result from the second cell number 20:

Same test conditions than with previous cell number 2 except it was on a continuous not paused discharge.

Charge voltage to 3.65V at 0.5C
Ambiant temp: 22 celsius
load current with CBA III and corrected value according to my calibrated Fluke 337 DC clamp ampmeter to 98.5% of cba III
LVC to 2.0V


Result: 19.251Ah from the CBA III wich equal to 18.96Ah for the second cell wich is no 20

That is pretty close to the capacity of the cell number 2 !.. this is only 0.01Ah difference between two randomely sampled cells

Test will continue tomorrow.. it's time to sleep now :wink:

Good night

Doc
 
miro13car said:
Brokerage fees are speciality of couriers for sure UPS infamous for making money on this rather more than on shipping itself.
Fees are inflated and almost criminal in amount. So couriers are big NO NO if you ship to Canada, sometimes I have cases that Brokerage radiculos fees were higher than cost of merchendise.
I refuse to buy from USA if no USPS is offered.
From other countries only Post Offices.
From USA to Canada USPS is way to go = NO BROKERAGE FEES.
Click to expand...

That's not entirely true, it somewhat depends on the USPS service but there are very often brokerage charges along with duty and tax. This is based on service type, value, what the item is. They are typically lower from USPS than UPS given identical value and item though.

The reason that brokerage looks so bad from UPS is you are probably buying low value items. IE $20-200CAD, there is a tiered brokerage fee based on the value, and once you get above a few hundred dollars it increments much slower and ends up becoming a negligible portion of the price. At my day job I approve the brokerage invoice and the fee maxes out at a value of around 500-800US with our account structure, so the brokerage on $1000 is exactly the same as $500,000 so the GST becomes the main import cost.

The other thing to consider is that with some shipping services IE "air" brokerage is often included in the price. So the final cost can end up cheaper and you get your stuff faster if you use one of the air services with UPS/FedEx between Canada and the USA. I stopped using FedEx ground to ship to the USA because it ended up costing more in the end for longer delivery times, the air service cost more for shipping, however the brokerage is included which actually ends up making it cheaper than ground.

DoctorBass: What is the resolution and accuracy of that fluke? I have a "calibrated" fluke at work I've been able to test against with my home meter and they agree perfectly at certain currents, but not others. My home meter also agrees with a shunt at certain currents but not others. Any hall effect sensor is going to have a much tougher time vs a shunt that is set up close. If the fluke reads xx.xA then you can't trust the absolute accuracy of the last digit, and it's not like the two measurements are very far off. A good shunt with a good fluke with a high "count" will give a better chance at a more accurate reading when simply measuring the mv across the shunt. It's all relative though, and for most purposes all you really need to know is how one cell capacity vs another measured on the same equipment.

(if the fluke reads xx.xxA then you might be able to trust the ".x" digit)

Your cells are right in the expected ballpark though which is good news!!
 
rwaudio said:
DoctorBass: What is the resolution and accuracy of that fluke? I have a "calibrated" fluke at work I've been able to test against with my home meter and they agree perfectly at certain currents, but not others. My home meter also agrees with a shunt at certain currents but not others. Any hall effect sensor is going to have a much tougher time vs a shunt that is set up close. If the fluke reads xx.xA then you can't trust the absolute accuracy of the last digit, and it's not like the two measurements are very far off. A good shunt with a good fluke with a high "count" will give a better chance at a more accurate reading when simply measuring the mv across the shunt. It's all relative though, and for most purposes all you really need to know is how one cell capacity vs another measured on the same equipment.

(if the fluke reads xx.xxA then you might be able to trust the ".x" digit)

Your cells are right in the expected ballpark though which is good news!!
Click to expand...


That's a great observation Robin. My fluke is in the 00.0 digit but i have my own reference shunt that i test all other current meter with it and i already tested it with it and in the 0-10 and 10-20A range it is pretty accurate. I will doubleckeck tonight with my 0-100A psu and both shunt and Fluke 337.

I know that when i resoldered big 8 gauge wire on the CBA the lead might have affected a bit the shunt value...

I'm pretty confident about the Fluke

Doc
 
Total capacity of each cells sampled over the 180 total cells we got

cell no 2 = 18.95Ah
cell no 20 = 18.96Ah
cell no 35 = 19.19Ah
cell no 47 = 19.31Ah

Here is a graph of the 3 last cells

Doc
 

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It is very inspiring to see this groupbuy going through and the testing done by Doc. Makes it easier to try something similar.
When I check the victpower website they list two different 20ah 123system cells. One is labeled as "MADE IN THE USA".
However on both pages they claim 300pcs minimum order. This groupbuy did order 180cells and earlier in this thread Victpower also quoted 48cells to someone.
Is this "300pcs min order" just an attempt to keep "smallbuyers" away but not actually the case?
 
More update on these cells capacity test.

It's a 100A continuous test ( 5C rate) with one side of the cell on an insulating material wich is closer than a cell tested with air on both side.
Please note that this test was done with the best equipment i have and i used the great CC-400 load discharger from Camlight system as a booster for my CBA III
As i explain the CBA is draining 10Amp while the CC-400 is set to 90A so the CBA will graph 10A graph but it's 10x and mean 100A total. I also noted that my Meterman DVM measured 3.03V while the CBA measure 2.86V.. this is due to the voltage loss in the 10A lead of the CBA that are not compensated so this also mean that the LVC of 2V had trip sonner so it mean the discharge had cut to 2.170V instead. but i guess that the capacity difference is negligible at the clif the graph is in this SOC area.

In the last test i got 18.95A at 20A ( 1C) and now at 100A ( 5C)i got 18.28Ah so wich mean that only 0.67Ah was dissipated in heat loss due to the internal resistance of the cells after drawing 80more Amps.

I have calculated about 1.8 miliohm DC at exactly 50% of the discharge. The voltage average over the 100% of the discharge at 100A was 2.97V on the cell tab and got 54.3 Wh energy.

I will do more test in the next days.

Doc
 
The video of the last test at 100A:


[youtube]UPTRoLKlHpg[/youtube]

Doc
 
Your Doc is in love with these great A123 :mrgreen:
 

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Docs gotta new love! I'm so jealous...
 
pgt400 said:
How would they compare with 2P of 10ah Headway? At $24 per they are priced a little less than Calabs.....only MUCH better performance it seems!
Click to expand...


These A123 are rated 20C max and the 38120S Headway are 10C max.

And A123 are 15C continuous while the 38120S are 5C continuous MAX

I would not do 2p headway 38120S for 100A continuous unless you have a good airflow between the cells. 50A continuous on a 38120 result in a higher temp than the A123.

The form factor of the A123 pouch is much more interesting!

here is the spec according to a german website:http://shop.lipopower.de/A123-Systems-AMP20M1HD-A-20Ah-Folienzelle
Nominal capacity: 20Ah (18Ah-20Ah according to A123 Systems)
Nominal voltage: 3.3V
Discharge: max. 2400W/kg (continuous discharge tested with> 15C)
Discharge voltage: 2.0 V / (pulse to 1.6 V)
Load current (max.): 300A (15C - high recuperation possible)
Charge voltage (max.): 3.6 V / (pulse to 3.8 V)
Weight: 490gr.
Dimensions (LWH): 227 x 161 x 7.2 mm
Click to expand...

We now just need half the room we needed with the 38120S on the GSX-R1100 electric conversion!

Doc
 

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Ypedal said:
I wonder if the cells that end up in the cars deliver the full 20ah..
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That's an interesting question..! :D the only way wouls be to find some good test donwe by someone that bought them at 60 euro+ from mavizen... apparently they are directly sold by A123...

Doc
 
If these cells are specified to 2400W per kg tested at >15C that mean if the cell weight 490g, it's 1176Watts per cell.

we know that the max contimuous C rate for 2400W is for >15C. we know that these cells are capable of 22C according to some tests done by independent tester wich is 440A, that mean the voltage should be 1176W/(22C * 20Ah) =2.67V.. not bad..

I got 2.94V at 100C ( 5C)

Since a motorcycle draw about 10kW at 60mph, and we use 45s 2p A123, we will get about 148V and 67amp so it's 34Amp per cell ( 1.5C).

They should keep pretty cold.

Doc
 
without specific knowledge of the test they used to establish the 20Ah spec, one can only speculate.

perhaps they use the .1C discharge rule and then have a preconditioning of the cell in advance where they charge/discharge for several cycles to optimize the capacity, and then push the maximum amount of charge in up to about 4.1V and then discharge it to 2V. that may put the extra 5% back into the capacity so they can claim the 20Ah.

or these may just not have passed the Ri test they use and got culled at that point.

they do seem like a great value but i think the test of time will be whether they swell and puff up and if the tabs end up being too fragile for the high vibrations they get exposed to on the vehicle.

60Wh/lb so 25kWh pack would be 400lbs.
 
Even the cells from Mavizen has something to save their ass stating:
Nominal Capacity: 18.5Ah min, 19.6ah nom

So I doubt their cells are any better, perhaps the cells going to Fisker or something were better. Or A123 simply uses a different testing method to get 20ah.... charge to 4v? discharge to 1v?? :roll:

It's nice to hear that your cells are performing well!!! I have a batch coming soon from Shenzhen Victpower.
 
rwaudio said:
Even the cells from Mavizen has something to save their ass stating:
Nominal Capacity: 18.5Ah min, 19.6ah nom

So I doubt their cells are any better, perhaps the cells going to Fisker or something were better. Or A123 simply uses a different testing method to get 20ah.... charge to 4v? discharge to 1v?? :roll:

It's nice to hear that your cells are performing well!!! I have a batch coming soon from Shenzhen Victpower.
Click to expand...

Before we comit our buy, we asked few questions to the girl of Victpower and she said us that the cells are between 18.5 to 19.2Ah wich is exactly what we had on the 4 cells we sampled ove rthe 180 cells packs. That's encouraging!

The cells appear brand new with their S/N number sticker on the tab and the full lengh tab.

She also confirmed that they are brand new A grade cells and not Grade B.. but i can't say it's 100% sure as well..

From now all my test are all succesfull with them.

80% of cells was at 3.293V exactly and teh lowest cell was at 3.285V wich is incredibly good for over 180 cells order in box of 14 cells per box

Doc
 
Top testing Doc, I was hoping to run 20S 2P of these cells to power the bike below with a 20KW motor or maybe an Agni motor.

Do you think the A123 20Ah cells in a 2P parallel would be enough? Or would I have to go 3P?

Only going to be travelling 20miles max to work.

file.php
 
2P is enough and will be ok at 60mph too.

60mph is around 10kW so in 20s it's like 130A current so each cells will see 65A continuous wich is way below their stress point!

1p would do the job too.

Remember these can take 300A continuous!

Nice project! wich motor do you plan to use?

Doc
 
At this Price they are a bargin.

I Have a friend with an off grid setup using A123's His expecting 10 years of use with the way he has set his system up.
I certainly think its possible
 
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