Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

[amberwolf]

And the bike as it is right now:

with the throttle on upside down since it was easier to use that way, with the gripshifters this bike has.

This means the switch isn't thumb-accessible now, but that's ok. I don't expect to change it's setting very often, if I understand what it does correctly.

Also, I did not change the brake levers, since I can't use the regen on this motor anyway until (unless) I disable the freewheel. I have a "parking brake" (shown in pic) on the front wheel that lets me push the pin in and lock the brake engaged. Very helpful when I am getting on and off, so that the bike doesn't roll and cause me to fall (again). Came off a jogger's baby stroller. Wish all brakes had this pin.

Bike lighting only:

including my little harbor frieght flashlight with red tape on it for a tailllight, attached to my trailer hitch:


I also have another light, a Stanley worklight tripod thing, thats 20 lumens and a very tight spot, but it's not on here at the moment since the motor system has the light built in. I will probably clamp it back on there under the bars since it's spot is better with longer throw.

I test rode it around the block, and it works fine as far as I can tell. Kept really dipping low on the battery voltage at every throttle-up, so I am recharging it overnight to see if that improves. If not, I'll have to put my SLA on here until I can get the LiPo packs built. More test rides tomorrow, on the way to and from work.

 

[amberwolf]

Whaaa...!what have you done?hub motor? HORN? KEY!!!I am greatly disheartened!Please ,be a hallucination from meds and 4am!The rat has turned into a chinchilla!ALAS!

Don't worry, this is just to get my work commuter helping my knees out while I work on a more permanent fix for CrazyBike2, a separate cargo bike very much like Justin's cross-Canada bike, and a cargo trike.

 

[dogman dan]

Heh heh, by the time I got through cutting wires here and there, It was pretty much a "some assembly required deal" Not much different than a dumpster find, and priced like it.

The tape residue on the light sensor was layers of masking tape to keep the light from turning off at every streetlight.

The tire is shot, just sent to protect the rim in shipping, I forgot to mention that.

Should have put some fur inside so the box would be more fun for the dogs.

We can rest assured, that Amberwolf will be thinking stokemonkey pretty quick.

Putting the 7 speed twist shifter on the left side, upside down was the way to go for me, and just removing the front derailur, or using an old school lever to shift the front.

 

[amberwolf]

Heh heh, by the time I got through cutting wires here and there, It was pretty much a "some assembly required deal" Not much different than a dumpster find, and priced like it.

I figured on lots of rewiring. I like to open stuff up and redo things, in case you haven't noticed. I left the hall wire stuff I added long enough so that once I get around to it I can actually run those directly to inside the motor itself, hopefully. Same for the controller end. The phase wires I was considering doing that, but the extension cord Hachi sacrificed to the teething gods is too fat (at least 10AWG with thick insulation) so I can't fit even two of it's wires in there. Plus, the wire Fusin used appears to be teflon sheathed, for the phases at least, and I don't want to replace that stuff. I probably will still do it on the controller end.

The tape residue on the light sensor was layers of masking tape to keep the light from turning off at every streetlight.

That sensitive? Ok, I'll bring my electrical tape with me so that if it is like that here on the way home I can fix it.

The tire is shot, just sent to protect the rim in shipping, I forgot to mention that.

No problem--it's actually useful, since I can use it for burnout tests on a bike once I get one with a CrazyBike2-level of motor that's running a 26" wheel.

Should have put some fur inside so the box would be more fun for the dogs.

I think they can smell them anyway.

We can rest assured, that Amberwolf will be thinking stokemonkey pretty quick.

Once I figure out the freewheel/regen thing, it's quite possible it'll go that way, but only if I can make it a left side drive that doesn't go thru the derailer. I'm pretty sure I would destroy the derailer trying to run power thru it backwards (assuming I also defeated the freewheel at the rear cluster).

Putting the 7 speed twist shifter on the left side, upside down was the way to go for me, and just removing the front derailur, or using an old school lever to shift the front.

I'm way too used to controlling everything on the bike with right hand, and being free to signal with the left. Not that most people know what they mean, but at least I'm trying. Gotta rebuild my old turn signals for this thing.

 

[amberwolf]

First "scientific" tests today, but I forgot to put the PDA/speedo on it so I have only rough guess on how fast I went at any point, and not sure of average speeds.

Basically the motor will let me shift up two or three gears higher than I could normally pedal at, if I work as hard as I usually do for pedalling. That's a few MPH faster (don't know exactly how much) than I would usually ride pedal-only. I did test it a bit here and there to see what it would do without pedalling, but not enough to really stress anything yet.

Bike is running on a 36V 9Ah D-type NiMH pack (from a Giant suede-e brand bike), about 12 pounds. I haven't been able to fully charge it yet, as my 60V power supply is still not fixed, so all I have is a 40V supply that maxes out at 43.2V. (I use these because they're current-limited, so they won't blow up the batteries by feeding too much current while the difference in voltage is still high; they essentially run in constant current all the time until the voltage creeps up to match the output of the supply). ***

2.5 mile trip to work at typical straightway speeds of 12-16MPH, with around a dozen or more full stops and starts for traffic controls:
42V starting rest voltage
40.47V finish rest voltage
34.32V minimum trip voltage
16.35A peak
22.4Wh (about 9Wh/Mile)
578W peak
0.538Ah

2.5 mile trip home from work at typical straightway speeds of 12-16MPH, with around a dozen full stops and starts for traffic controls. The light was also powered during this trip (had to put electrical tape over it to keep *every single light source* from turning it off!), which takes roughly 70mA extra:
40.68V starting rest voltage
38.64V finish rest voltage
32.01V minimum trip voltage
18.64A peak
23.9Wh (about 9.5Wh/Mile)
616W peak
0.652Ah

During the trip to work, hard accelerations dipped a couple of LEDs down on the power meter, but coming home they all went out and the "battery warning" light came on (didn't cut out, though, dunno what LVC is on this thing, if it has one). So I tried to be gentler with it on the homeward trip, though I could more freely go faster than during the day, since there was virtually zero traffic at night.


I don't know if all that wire length has anything to do with it, but here's the current wiring layout.
View attachment 1
Power runs from battery in the box thru watt meter on top tube to light/keyswitch/power meter unit on the bars, then back to controller in the box, back up to the motor on the front wheel. That's a long trip for an electron, so they're probably worn out by the time they get there, and can't do much on the little quantum hamster wheels.

So I think I'm going to alter the way the system works. Right now it's designed so that the keyswitch physically disconnects main battery power from everything. What I am going to do is make the keyswitch connect power to a relay that will then power the controller. The keyswitch will only directly power the light module, which takes less than 100mA total, so I can completely remove all the heavy-gauge wires (the vacuum cleaner cord), and run a single thin 3-wire cable instead.

The watt meter will come out entirely from the visible instrumentation, and only be in the box, wired between the battery and the rest of the bike. Since I have the LED power meter on there it's good enough for telling what my power situation is, and I only need the watt meter for collecting test data.

Two of the wires to the light module will be power and ground from the battery, just like they are now. Ground goes right to the light module board, while power goes to the keyswitch. Just as now, other side of the keyswitch goes to the light module board. In addition to this, the third wire will go from that side of the keyswitch back to the relay coil.

The other side of the relay coil will be wired to watt meter output ground. The relay contacts will switch the positive lead from the watt meter output to the controller. Controller ground will go to the watt meter output negative lead.

Turning the keyswitch on will then engage the relay, connecting power to the controller. The keyswitch will directly apply power to the light/meter/etc. inside the handlebar unit.

The watt meter will always be on if the battery is connected, so I can keep the data "live" during rides even when I stop and lock it up somewhere, so I can collect the data when I get home instead of having to write it all down at each stopping point, or losing it should I have to emergency-turn-off the motor for any reason.

This whole thing removes about 8 feet of wire from the power path of battery to motor. Ought to make some difference to performance, but I don't know how much, since the currents drawn are pretty low.

The relays themselves will come from the same UPS I pulled my CrazyBike2 batteries from (and the large filter caps for the 2QD). There are several of them and I will probably parallel at least three of them, to be more sure of power handling capabilities. Their coils are only 24VDC, so I will put a resistor and zener on there to limit to that voltage.


*** I have an idea for charging the packs faster and "safer", but haven't had a chance to do the wiring needed for it. Basically I take three 2/4-cell AA NiMH fast chargers I have, and wire up little 4-cell-at-a-time 5-wire harnesses to the packs, a little like balancing plugs. Matching connectors on the chargers, soldered to the points the AA battery clips connect to on their boards, run out the side of the cases so I can also still use them for AAs. Then I can charge 12 cells at a time in the pack. There are 32 cells in the 36V pack, so I charge up 12, then 12, then 4 + 2.

I'll probably use old AT-keyboard DIN connectors for this, as I have a pile of old dead motherboards with those on them, plus a pile of old dead keyboards. I also have a bunch of female DIN connectors in a box somewhere, from my old MIDI-cable-making days, but haven't seen them for literally a few years. I could also just cut some of my old DIN extension cables in half, and that would be even better, since I do not have to wire any connectors up--I just solder in the wires from the cable itself on there (females on the batteries, so the pins can't get shorted by something falling into the connector while riding). But this would "waste" several male connectors, as I only need three of those, but need 8 female connectors for the 8 sets of four batteries in the 36V pack. More if I use the same method on the 24V pack.

At about 400mA (the limit for two of the chargers), they'd charge up the 9Ah pack in about a day and a half if I really totally drained it. Assuming I remembered to swap the chargers around at the proper times, or have them where I can see the lights on them that show they're done. One of the chargers can do closer to 800mA, so it can charge it's 4 cells faster, and thus get 2 banks of 4 done while the other two only get one each.

This also will be safer on the batteries, as these have charge controllers built in specifically to keep the batteries safe.

 

[dogman dan]

I found the really nice thing about the kit was the battery meter, which worked well for me even on lifepo4. On the pingbattery, all the lights would be lit if the bike was stationary, but while riding, the led's would give you a good idea of the sag under load. I'd have to ride a long ways to see any lights go out, but towards the end of the ride they were a great guide for seeing the effect of various efficient riding techniques. Pedal harder till the lights go back on essentially, or slow down till the lights go back on.

The really not nice thing was all the extra length on the battery to controller wire. That's why I had cut the whole thing out of the system when I remounted the motor on a dirt riding bike. Suprisingly, it didn't affect performance all that much. I guess the wire size was sufficient for 15 amps. So if your wire is fat, you might leave it as is.

When you want to conserve the battery, just use the low speed/ high tourqe setting. It will really mizer the battery while still pulling great up a hill.

The new fusin kit I just recieved yesterday has the key switch turning off the controller, but not by cutting off the main power wire. The 48v kit is definitely faster and more powerfull. The only drawback I had with the 36v kit was 350 watts was not quite enough for climbing the hill to my house very fast. The 48v kit has more peak power for the hills, but is still only a mid wattage motor with a 20 amp controlller. I don't need 2000 watts, but did want to get home faster in the summers heat. 15 miles in 100F you want to end asap.

 

[amberwolf]

I found the really nice thing about the kit was the battery meter, which worked well for me even on lifepo4. On the pingbattery, all the lights would be lit if the bike was stationary, but while riding, the led's would give you a good idea of the sag under load.

Yeah; so far this is working like that, and is nice. I originally had a similar meter off that ScootNGo, but was only for 24V. I am sure I could've modded it for 36V, but I never did, when I changed to 36V on those radiator fan motors. I liked the feature, and is one thing I would add to a CA--a bargraph like that that reacts fast to loads.

The really not nice thing was all the extra length on the battery to controller wire. That's why I had cut the whole thing out of the system when I remounted the motor on a dirt riding bike. Suprisingly, it didn't affect performance all that much. I guess the wire size was sufficient for 15 amps. So if your wire is fat, you might leave it as is.

I want to simplify the thing anyway. If I reduce the wires to something very thin, it makes it easier to put a small plug on there to hook the light module to the rest of the bike, and I can then just slide it off and toss it in the lockable cargo pod when I go inside. At least no one can steal *just* the light module that way.

Oh, and it really is sensitive enough that even passing car headlights will turn it off, as well as porch lights that shine outward brightly enough! So I put a single piece of black electrical tape on there, and it just turns on when I turn on the key, except in bright direct sunlight.

When you want to conserve the battery, just use the low speed/ high tourqe setting. It will really mizer the battery while still pulling great up a hill.

That's the only setting I have used so far on the road, though I did flip it up to the other two to test it around the block. The high setting doesn't change anything from the medium setting. I am not sure if it is because my battery is not fully charged yet, and there's just not enough power, or if it is a problem in the switch or wiring. Not worried about it, as the medium setting is pretty fast for this bike, once it gets there.

The new fusin kit I just recieved yesterday has the key switch turning off the controller, but not by cutting off the main power wire.

That's how it's shown in the diagram for this one, too; but it's not implemented that way. The design appears to allow for it, from what I saw in the controller and lightbox, though. I only want to use a relay so it hard cuts off the power with the key, and because I am not *certain* of what the other unused pins in the controller do.

The 48v kit is definitely faster and more powerfull. The only drawback I had with the 36v kit was 350 watts was not quite enough for climbing the hill to my house very fast. The 48v kit has more peak power for the hills, but is still only a mid wattage motor with a 20 amp controlller. I don't need 2000 watts, but did want to get home faster in the summers heat. 15 miles in 100F you want to end asap.

OH, YEAH. That is TRUE. That's one of the reasons I originally considered motorizing, and worked so hard to get the friction drive going a couple of years ago, for summer.

 

[amberwolf]

I could smack myself. I have two of the smaller 40V Sorenson current limited supplies. They are isolated. They can be wired in series. Set one for 40V and one for 10V, and then I can charge my 36V NiMH pack fully.

From what I have found so far, 1.4v to 1.6v is considered a full-charge voltage on a NiMH cell, with about 1.2-1.25V under-load nominal output. So about 50V for a 32-cell pack.

We'll see how it goes; it's charging up now using this method. Ignore the voltmeter reading on the top Sorenson--the meter does not work right.

 

[amberwolf]

Ok, 50V started to warm up the pack noticeably even at 250mA or less, and it didn't go past 45V anyway, so I turned it down to 45V. Even though it was just noticeable, and not hot, I don't want to take any chances. Like the idiot I am lately, I forgot to even look at the meter before I disconnected the pack and shut off the Sorensens, so I have no idea how much charge it actually got, other than that it was around 43V.

First I unplugged the pack to let it cool off to room temperature, then rode it to work yesterday (and was sent right back home due to still being sick plus not being able to use my right eye from Hachi scratching it about midday) and back home, using up about one Ah total (a little less than the last trip because this time I was super slow due to not having any depth perception). During the ride, like the previous ones, it appears to be getting low faster each time, meaning it is not getting as much charge as it is using up.

I set it to 45V and let it charge at 250mA for several hours, then when it reached about 7Ah of charge I turned the limit down to 100mA to let it continue. It still has not gotten warm, and has been at roughly 44.5V for the last few hours, but still pulling 100mA. Since it is around a 9Ah pack and it takes about 1.5x the Ah of a pack to fully charge it (if I understand what I've read correctly), then it'll be a while before it's fully charged at this rate. I don't yet know exactly what SOC it was in to start with, so I am going to trickle charge it like this until I have to go to sleep.

Hopefully I will learn what rates it is safe enough to charge it at as I experiment, without damaging it, until I know it's true capacity and it's actual SOC. Also hopefully, it will actually be charged much more this time around, since it barely lasts to and from work at the moment (5 miles), and ought to last a lot longer.

The pack is roughly 36V x 9Ah, so about 324Wh. Rounding up, I use about 50Wh for my round trip, at less than 0.5C most of the time, with a max of roughly 1.5C at some startups for a few seconds. Assuming 50% DOD, I ought to get at least 15 miles range out of it, once it is fully charged, depending on how healthy the pack really is.

More data tomorrow, if I don't get killed on the way to or from work riding with one eye closed.

 

[amberwolf]

Ok, well, apparently even with two eyes I can't count. There are not four rows of eight cells in the pack, there are two of eight and two of seven, and it's pretty glaringly obvious, too. So that's actually 30 cells, not 32, for 36V nominal and 42V to 48V (at 1.4 to 1.6v per cell) charge. Explains why 45V works well enough, as that is the average, while 50V is way too friggin' much. :lol:

So...as long as it's short experience at overvoltage didn't break it, I should now be charging it in a much healthier way. It's at roughly 8.2Ah right now charged thru it since this charge cycle began yesterday; I haven't used it at all today (been in bed feeling sick and blind most of the day, on the computer as it's the safest thing I can manage right now besides petting and snuggling up with the dogs).

Still haven't shortened up any cabling or put the watt meter in the cargo pod, but will likely do that after work tomorrow if I survive the ride.

 

[amberwolf]

This system has been working out well enough so far. I am having no trouble charging the 36V NiMH pack this way yet, though I need to put a timer on it as I have been so worn out lately that I am dozing off while it charges. Hasn't killed it yet, but eventually I might fall asleep at the wrong time and not wake up soon enough.

Now, some more usage statistics, after I put the PDA with VeloAce on the bike.

Lost the sheet for the trip *to* work, but the one *from* is this:
Started at 39.8V resting.
32.63V minimum
18.1A peak
591.6W peak
0.625Ah
23.1Wh
19.6MPH max
11.1mph avg
2.215 miles total

The next workday, these are the trip out and trip back:
41V start
39.47V end
32.9V min
16.62A p
560.7W p
0.519Ah
19.4Wh
2.1 miles
10.2mph avg

40.09V start
38.47V end
32.05v min
16.6A p
559W p
0.709Ah
25.7Wh
2.8 miles
10.1mph avg


As an interesting possibly useful addon, I have received some unusual battery packs that are apparently designed to snap into powerchair hub motors. They're 24V, and only 3Ah, which seems very small, but I don't know the motor type that would use them. They're labeled Emotion M12.


They have a built-in "BMS" of sorts, which takes in raw 24VDC (28V, actually, probably from a typical powerchair SLA charger), and modulates the current flow to the 20 series C-sized cells, and also includes a bargraph LED power meter.
View attachment 7

The chip that runs it is a BQ2013H, controlling a 6N06T, and monitoring current via a shunt resistor SMV R005 1.0% S25B.


There's also a few fuses. One is a 5A, presumably the charging fuse. Then a 25A discharge fuse soldered to the board, and inline with that is a 15A discharge fuse that's externally accessible and removable (blade type)


I started charging one of them using one of my 24V 3A SLA chargers, monitoring both current and voltage. It puts out about 28.5V or so, which is about perfect for charging this stack of cells. The board in the packs takes care of limiting the current into the cells, and monitoring the pack temperature.

In the first half hour or so it went from dead to a flashing red light, then up to a single yellow. I had to turn it off for about 3 hours while I went somewhere, then started up again and let it run another hour or so, and it went to three lights (red, yellow, yellow).

No pic, but now a couple hours later it's at four lights total, R Y Y and a Green. Presumably the last one will also be green.

I did not put the watt meter on it as I am charging the 24V 13Ah NiMH pack with it now, as a backup power source for a longish trip tomorrow (assuming I don't get sicker than I am right now, again). I'll put it on the next one I charge.

 

[John in CR]

HEY I LIKE HIS WORK, What i ment about someday having a nice bike is haveing a nice crappy looking bike that run's good and won't fall apart, I follow his builds and it makes me happy to see someone make things out of stuff that other people throw away, I have been doing the same thing all my life.

Bluestreak,

You, amberwolf, and I see eye to eye in this regard...functionality and durability are all that should matter, and being a novelty to others makes us safer by standing out on the road. That's great for our own transportation, and if we want to keep the e-roads to ourselves. The problem is we aren't going to be able to maintain the secret. We might as well embrace that looks is pretty high up on everyone else's list. I've pretty much decided that to further the cause I want to start building stuff to consider selling. I'll leave the performance sportsbikes to the number of knowledgeable people working in that direction, and build dependable workhorses with a bit of flare. No you wouldn't want to have to peddle them home, but you could. No you wouldn't take them jumping off cliffs and other youtube type stuff. No they won't be the fastest. HOWEVER, they are probably more useful as a replacement for cars...along the lines with what the Dutch come up with as work bikes, but with electric power as the primary, and a touch less utilitarian look to them.

As I start posting my stuck flog away with ideas or missteps you see. I've got thick skin and would never be upset by constructive criticism in any form.

Amberwolf, In that regard, for a friction drive rig...I'd of course have a knurled metal roller (I have several already), but for dual motors I really want one on each side sharing a common shaft. To me, that way no significant efficiency robbing pressure is needed on the roller, and whatever pressure there is, has support on the other side. I've got 0 experience with friction drives, and you've got commuting experience with one, so am I off base in any respect?

BTW, can't wait to see the final result of DayGlow2.

John

 

[John in CR]

wheelchair hub motor battery packs...hhhhmmmmm I'm just thinking how much in the way of batteries I could fit near the rear wheel. Too bad I don't have perfect roads here like my house up on the mountain 7 years ago. Without the vibration issues of bumps, the only issue would be waterproofing, which is addressed easy enough. I guess I have to wait for prismatic cells that don't need compression, so I can just build a monocoque frame with batteries as my primary building material.

John

 

[amberwolf]

The battery pack charged up fully (according to the meter, anyway) a couple hours after the post about it. I'm charging up a second one using the watt meter to monitor it and tell me how much charge it actually takes. Since it's very dead, it should take at least 3 or 4 Ah to charge it up, perhaps more (given 3Ah capacity times 1.5 for how much power it actually takes to charge a NiMH).

One problem with the packs is that for some reason at least on this one, the meter stays lit up even after being taken off the charger. The button next to the LEDs should require being depressed to make this happen, but it does not--it's not shorted either. So the pack will drain itself thru the LEDs. Gotta find a fix for that.

The SLA charger only charges at it's higher rates of around 2.8A for a few minutes; then it switches to a different mode (being an automatic 3-stage) and drops to less than half an amp for another short while, then drops to less than 100mA which trickles down to less than 10mA over the next few hours. I'm sure if I used a non-smart 28V power source it'd charge a lot faster, and the BMS in the pack *should* stop the charge at the right point (and protect by temperature as well, as it has a thermistor, too).

The third pack I'll try charging using my Sorensons, with both of them paralleled (via diodes) and maxed for current; should get between 1.5 and 1.8A max current out of them that way. Since the pack shouldn't take as long to charge (about 2 to 3 hours), I should be able to monitor it thru much of the cycle to see how the BMS behaves, while I do housework and stuff. (like cleaning up Hachi's disasters).

The problem is we aren't going to be able to maintain the secret. We might as well embrace that looks is pretty high up on everyone else's list.

That it is. I know that most of the people who are sort of interested in what I do are not really interested in having one mostly because of how it looks, but they are usually aware that it could look like anything, and that mine is so simply because it is a rolling pile of junk. When they see my DayGlo Avenger with the frock...er...hub motor in it, and the relatively clean look it has (other than the crappy faded paint job), they're more interested.

If I could build the Junkyard Wolf version of CrazyBike2, I'm pretty sure I'd get some people seriously interested in copies or variations, because that would look snazzy.

Then my trike I'm still pondering the design of will be that workhorse you're talking about, hopefully useful enough to also be copyable.

Amberwolf, In that regard, for a friction drive rig...I'd of course have a knurled metal roller (I have several already), but for dual motors I really want one on each side sharing a common shaft. To me, that way no significant efficiency robbing pressure is needed on the roller, and whatever pressure there is, has support on the other side. I've got 0 experience with friction drives, and you've got commuting experience with one, so am I off base in any respect?

I think you're probably right. I didn't really have the option to do it that way, as I couldn't come up with a way to secure a roller between the two motors I had before. I probably could do it *now*, or at least I know how I could do it if I could make the parts, but I no longer have a matched pair of motors to use due to the broken shaft. I'd have to figure out how to replace or repair the shaft first.

I also think a much smaller diameter roller than my skate wheels would work better, like a knurled metal roller, or skateboard wheels (which I now have) that can be lathed down to a smaller diameter than the skate wheels could.

The only serious problem I foresee with any friction drive is that the heavier the startup loads are, the more likely it is to cause damage to the tire itself at each startup. So cargo bikes probably arent' the best choice of bike to run a friction drive on. The lighter the bike and load (including rider) is, the better a friciton drive will work fro longer without problems.

BTW, can't wait to see the final result of DayGlow2.

You're making a big assumption that I *have* any such thing as a final result, as opposed to a continuing evolution.

wheelchair hub motor battery packs...hhhhmmmmm I'm just thinking how much in the way of batteries I could fit near the rear wheel. Too bad I don't have perfect roads here like my house up on the mountain 7 years ago. Without the vibration issues of bumps, the only issue would be waterproofing, which is addressed easy enough.

Well, if you are referring to not having vibration/bump issues if the batteries are in the wheel (or on the swingarm), they'd actually be a lot worse with them there, instead of on the suspended frame. But I am probably misunderstanding.

 

[thatguitarguy]

I am trying to work out a way to make a no-weld xtracycle-like addon out of bikes and clamps.

Have you started on this yet?

I'm hoping to do something similar. I have a Greenspeed GTO that I definitely don't want to molest, but I do want to build an Xtracycle type extension that would run my 26" hubmotor. I have an old Sterling MTB donor that has the old-school raised chainstay hardtail that I think would be ideal for the base frame, I'm just trying to figure out a way to design the extension for easy attachment to a 20" trike without doing any cutting or welding on the trike. I don't have good welding tools or skills, but I might be able to get some help with this if I can figure out what I want the final design to be and build a jig. I don't care about cutting and welding or bonding anything on the extension, but I'd like to keep it simple and strong, and most of all make sure it doesn't damage the Greenspeed.

I enjoy watching the progress on your projects.

 

[amberwolf]

I am trying to work out a way to make a no-weld xtracycle-like addon out of bikes and clamps.

Have you started on this yet?

I have what amounts to napkin-sketches, but haven't worked out whether it would actually stay together or not.

I think the triangle addon would work fine, but not so sure yet about the cargo rack stuff, which would be made out of folding cots with metal frames. The ones I have here to experiment with are aluminum (an alley find, behind my house a few years back).

I'm pretty sure hose clamps, if using actual stainless steel ones, like the Ideal brand, would be sufficient for at least the cargo rack stuff. Just don't ever use the ones from harbor freight and the like--those things are made of used gum wrappers or something--friends that have used them for actual hose clamps have been severely disappointed in their performance, shall we say.

I'll see if I can find the sketches and post them up in a new thread with my thoughts on it so far.

 

[amberwolf]

Regarding the Emotion charging: The other two packs charged up ok. Using the SLA charger I could only get about 2.5Ah into the second one after several hours, as it drops to 28.04V in whatever stage it thinks it's in within the first hour. Probably the same charge on the first one.

Using the Sorensen, I got about 2.5Ah into the third one with it set to 28V, then changed it to 29V and got another Ah in there, then set to 30V and got another half Ah in there and it eventually reached the voltage-drop stage in the cells, meaning it actually finished charging, and ended up holding the Sorensen at 29.89V (after it had reached 30.01V).

So I think these C-sized cells apparently need 1.5V per cell to charge fully, possibly because of the BMS electronics. I have not confirmed if there is any significant voltage drop across the BMS.

One interesting tidbit is that even with diodes, the Sorensens will not parallel-ouput current, which doesn't make any sense. I know the battery can pull at least 2.8A, but when I hooked in the second Sorenson at exactly the same voltage and current output, it did not add anything to the charge. If I disconnected the first one, charge continued exactly as before, so it is indeed outputting the same voltage and current (verified by the watt meter), but two in parallel does not add anything. Very strange.

I suppose it is possible that the battery pack was actually only drawing 0.9A at that point, so the additional Sorensen did not add anything for that reason (set to it's max actual output current), but I did not think to check at that time by turning down the current by say, half on each one, to see if it still pulled 0.9A total.

Now I just have to check the discharge capability of the packs, by paralleling all three and seeing how well they will run a motor. Hopefully I can run the Fusin at 24V, but if not then I can tap into 12V worth of that 36V pack, to put in series with the paralleled Emotion packs.

 

[amberwolf]

Well, five days later and I've got just about nothing done; between still getting over whatever this flu is and pulling muscles in my ribcage coughing, I'm pretty useless. Plus that blackened thumbnail in some of the pics above? I caught the back edge of it on something that started it peeling at the back of the black part, so now the soft tender stuff underneath is exposed. Did you know that just touching that can hurt?

Anyway, I think I already posted in the trike thread that I received the 3speed IG hubs from Spinningmagnets and Ejoness; I'll have to go check to be sure. But I also found another one (by SA) with it's shifter and a set of handlebars identical to the ones already on my CrazyBike2 (which I like for that riding position) with a junkbox full of assorted bits and pieces (most of which I can use, some of which I can't and will post in the for sale section super cheap) and something else I've never seen in person before, but always wanted to try. They were marked $10 like all the other cranksets on the shelf, but I asked if they'd take $5 cuz they're all rusty, and he didn't even blink and said sure, so I bought them with the last of my cash:

The picture is taken straight on to the crankshaft. So yes, they are elliptical, not just a wierd angle.

These are Shimano Biopace chainrings, in the same 48/38/28t as my regular cranks on DGA, so I can directly compare their effect on pedalling to what I am used to. Cranks are same length, too.

Due to clearance issues on the left side for the kickstand, since it doesn't fold up all the way due to the cargo pod, I have to keep using my regular left crank, as the biopace crank is straight back, and the one I have already curves outward some, leaving just barely (few mm) enough clearance to not hit the kickstand as it goes around. It's fine on the right side though, with a few mm clearance of the cargo pod mounting plate.

In test rides, it is MUCH easier to pedal with these, as it feels like the cranking stroke continues around much farther than just that moment at 1-3 o'clock when I can really push. It feels like it keeps going at least halfway around, and then the other one starts to kick in. It is a lot easier on my knees, even without the motor doing anything. I don't know if that's actually what is happening, but it feels like it.

I am considering making elliptical chainrings for the trike now, since the pedal stuff will be totally separate from the motor anyway.

The only disadvantage this biopace system has that I have found so far is that due to the elliptical rings, the chain length changes as it goes round, so you can hear it taking up and letting out slack at the derailer in back, the whole time you're pedalling. I expect that this could cause problems or even derailing issues on some bikes, but it seems to be fine so far on DGA.


This is the rest of the stuff that I ended up with in the junk box, including the hub:
View attachment 6


View attachment 3



And a "Huffy Monza" that caught my eye as it made me think of the Corvair Monza even before I saw the Monza name on the other side of it, when I first saw the headlight assembly it came with:


There were other bikes there I wanted to take pics of, but the owners didn't want anyone to, which seemed strange. There were a couple of pretty old bikes that looked like they might've been from the 1930s based on the style, with "only" 3-digit price tags but in pretty poor condition, including lots of rust. Two bikes I thought were interesting were some EZ-Rider (I think) recumbents, both pretty expensive for my budget but probably cheap for what they are, at a few hundred $$ each.
.

 

[amberwolf]

Today was both a workday and dogfood replenishment day, so I rode DGA with the trailer attached. Unfortunately, it was also one of the windiest days in a while, and I almost got dragged off the road twice as the empty trailer was tipped over by the wind on the way to work.

I also managed on the way into the house to drop the paper I'd written the data on into water, and by the time I was done greeting the dogs and feeding them, it had decayed too far to read, so all I have is my memory of approximate usage.

Empty trailer for 2.2ish mile trip to work was around 15Wh/mile, about 1.1Ah total.

Trailer with two 40pound bags of dogfood on it for 2.5ish mile trip home was around 16Wh/mile, 1.2Ah total. I think the Vm was about 30V from sag somewhere in there, and about 16A max, typical for the low setting on the Fusin.

Since the trailer tires were only about 30PSI (to keep it from bouncing all over while unloaded, and because I forgot the air pump today, so I could put them to 40-50PSI loaded), that's not too bad.

One interesting thing that happened was that somehow when I was playing with these wheels off the trailer for the ARTOO front wheel ideas, I took out the bearings on one of the wheels on one end of that wheel's axle. I don't know why, nor do I remember doing it, but I must have done it, because on the way home about 1/8 mile in, there was this incredible squeal and I thought a car was right behind me or something, approach undetected due to not having any lights on and me being really tired.

However, it was actually the left wheel of the trailer, which had no bearings at all on the inside end.

I guess the grease still in there lasted till just then. I had no way to do anything about it, except to take bearings out of the other three hub ends to put a few into it. I chose not to do that, and to just ride home like this.

The faster I went, up to the 12MPH or so I could manage with the trailer loaded, me being too tired to pedal much, and the Fusin in low setting, the less squeaking. I stopped about a mile in to check the hub temperature, and it was pretty warm, but not hot, so I figured it wouldn't weld anything together before I got home.

I made it home fine, except for the awful squeal everytime I got below around 8MPH, and especially down below 3--if you've ever had a car next to you slow down that has their brakes totally worn down, it was louder than THAT. A lot louder. At one point a stray dog running down the street ran *away* from me instead of chasing me as usual because of it.

So before I use the trailer again I need to put some bearings in there. Still have no idea what I did with the ones in there or why I would take them out. :?

 

[amberwolf]

A thought that occured to me from another thread:

I am considering moving the hall sensor over from the twistgrip throttle to one of the ebrake levers instead, and then using that as my throttle. I may be testing this in the next few days if I feel well enough. If I had any other analog hall sensors that were of the right form factor, I'd just use one of them, but it appears I've run out of those, and all that are left are the digital output kind like the ebrakes already have, salvaged from various computer case fans.

Then I'll put the other ebrake lever on the left as an actual brake lever (though I have no brake on that side right now due to mechanical conflicts with my cargo pod panel mounts and the rear brake arms).

Eventually I may drill out a locking pin hole in the ebrake lever, to put my "parking brake" into effect with it, too, as I already have on the righthand lever for my front brake. That lever came off a jogger's baby stroller.

 

[amberwolf]

well, this and all other projects are kind of on hold while i recover from all my existing sickness (probably flu--almost gone) and injuries, plus a new one from yesterday.

i came home and as usual all the dogs want to greet me at once, but i was still busy parking the bike against the wall where i charge it, just inside the front door. this time for some reason bonnie really wanted my attention, and didn't want nana to beat her out for it. since nana is taller by a lot (bonnie can walk under her, sort of), then she usually is first at the door even though she knows i will not greet any of them utnil i have my hands all free and the door is locked.

nana did her usual bouncing up off her front paws all excited and happy, and bonnie just suddenly did something she has never done to any dog--she lunged at nana and started biting at her, rather than the usual just nipping at the air like the border collie she is usually does. so nana responded in kind, and grabbed bonnie's neck scruff from above/behind while bonnie fought for all she is worth to get under nana's throat without flipping herself over on her back. i saw the moment coming the instant before but could not do anything in time to stop it.

i've had to stop dogfights before, though not mine except once, so did the same things as then, and tackled them both to the floor, yelling stop and no which they are trained to just stop and back off from wherever they are and sit there, so i can keep them out of dangerous stuff like if i'm working on the bike or cooking or whatever.

didnt work since they were too into each other right at that moment, so i rolled harder onto bonnie to hold her down and pulled nana's jaws apart--as soon as i started doing that nana just let go and i could push her away but bonnie wouldn't stop snapping at nana, and i put my arm in the way but bonnie didn't see me she only saw enemy or whatever and snapped at my arm. then she realized it wasn't nana and she backed off and i held them apart and they both stopped and rolled over in submission, and gave up. the next half hour or more had them both rolling over in abject apology every time i got near; they both know they done wrong.

after my shaking and reaction to all this stopped, i noticed the three not-really-deep punctures in my left arm and the scrapes across my left next-to-pinky finger's end-knuckle on both inner and outer sides. none bleeding much, just kind of oozing, so i went to wash that all thoroughly, scrub it out with peroxide and alcohol, and gauze it up.

seems to be mostly ok but the arm's muscles and tendons are all bruised inside, and swollen within minutes of it happening. taking lots of extra garlic and vitamins to help fight any possible infection, recleaning the wounds often. hopefully it doesn't actually get infected; there's not a whole lot i can do about it if it does.

problem is that it's all super stiff and hard to move, quite painful to bend the wrist. even typing is an adventure in sensations i would rather not have, but it is at least some exercise to keep things less stiff. riding the bike is really hard, as every little bump hurts my left hand/arm so i just keep the hand to my side and just signal with it. one-armed riding with a functional-four-fingered-hand due to the bad pinky is very tough, especially changing gears (so i am basically just leaving it in lower gears and not doing a lot of pedalling) and even throttling up to a degree, so even riding except for just going to work or necessary store trips is out.


so it's going to be a while before i am able to do much on any project. i am already stir crazy from being mostly bedridden from the flu for the last what feels like a month already, and now this too. ugh. just as i start to get parts i really wanted/needed all together, too. well, i'll probably just post more ideas and stuff until i get to actually doing more things.

 

[AussieJester]

Had few unintentional dog bites in my life, goes with owning pitbulls, staffies and bullterriers
they rarely broke the skin but MAN the crushing power even on a bite they immediately let go
of when they realise they have you bruises the muscles and leaves it sore for days...I think the bullies were the worst
culprits always at each other and me separating them... well haha the PitBull was but i never got bit hard enough, watching him crunch on cow leg bones and snap them was enough for me to know not to get him to revved up when
"playing" with him... 45kilo of dog hanging off you wouldnt be a pleasurable experience.

Bright side you should have a parcel any day now to cheer you up...was sent when i said it would be, wont be far off

KiM

 

[amberwolf]

they rarely broke the skin but MAN the crushing power even on a bite they immediately let go
of when they realise they have you bruises the muscles and leaves it sore for days...

no kidding....
since it was the border collie, who is like 8 or 9 years old or something like that, i guess i can be glad it wasn't the st bernard that got me.

Bright side you should have a parcel any day now to cheer you up...was sent when i said it would be, wont be far off

unless there is a second one, it showed up on the 19th; i posted a little about it here
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=240167#p240167
and i thought i pm'd you but apparently i dreamed that because there's nothign in my outbox or sentbox for it. i've had a few things like that happen lately since i'm too tired and i doze off sitting here a lot, someitmes while writing a post.

i havnt had any energy to do anything with it but i now have lots better ideas how to put the discs on the ighs, once i can actually wield tools safely.

 

[AussieJester]

Ahh damn i missed that :-| Got there damn quick!

Sick Bike Parts cant get me a single freewheel here in two weeks FFS... still i wait. Glad the parcel made it anywazy mate, hope you can make use of the components

KiM

 

[amberwolf]

oh, definitely.

the wu needs new wires on it; they're kinda short so while it's open i'm gonna see if the blue-green vacuum-fluorescent display i have off a rackmount server case will work in place of the lcd display, as it probably would on a ca. and i'm probably going to move it's shunt to external, since they say how to do it on the rce mfr pages. that way i can put it on the handlebars of this bike the dga-mkii without running the battery heavy gauge wires up there, and instead just run a little thin twisted pair up there.

then i can do the same thing on the crazybike2 or artoo, leaving the shunt itself in the power wiring of each bike and just moving the meter over to each bike's bars as needed, along with the speedometer pda i use. hopefully as a single unit i can just clip on.