Cutouts: Solved! Sine Wave Controller S12S

[docnjoj]

Well I did a couple of things and the bike runs fine on the test stand. Which proves nothing! It is raining again and they predict SNOW in South Alabama! Now that is strange. Anyhoo I used conductive grease on the connector with the meter and found out the grey wire is the resistive brake (a little bit) I like it because it just comes on when you release the throttle but you can feather it to avoid any braking. So everything works fine on the stand ! Whoopie. Don't know when I will ride again, maybe in the freeze tomorrow. Just gotta test to see if the meter (and everything else) cuts out. If not, it is fine. If it does, short the meter wires, cause I am sure (almost) it is the meter, not the controller. I'll report soon, I hope.
otherDoc
The meter has a blue wire which is called the "Ignition lock" which sounds like the orange/red wire that used to be needed to be connected with the positive battery wire for the controller to run.

 

[friendly1uk]

Got mine today. What do you reckon. Just put it on ebay? lol

First surprise was the 23A max. I had been expecting 30A like the square wave controllers. I actually wanted about 22A though, so I'm buzzing.
Grey wires came looped, and the blue and black terminate in to the same 2 pin socket. A socket with a looped plug in it. This is odd. It's function must be one you might want to do remotely.

Looks like far to many plugs for 2am.

I don't see an extra wire on my lcd. Just a 5 pin connector

edit: My optional speed sensor plugs in the controller. That's one down two too go lol

 

[friendly1uk]

Friendly1UK wrote
Interesting. I was lead to believe that power level 1 was walking mode. Throttles can be fitted to eu pedelec's but 6kmh limited. I thought we might be seeing the throttle used as the 'go 6kmh button' while level 1 is selected.

It is interesting that your getting 25kmh, the legal limit. Are you sure it is not limited?

I'm not really sure about P1=walking as I made a bunch of changes (not scientific!) and then it went faster. If you press "down button" in induces walking mode. I think this is as fast as it goes with 36 volts but we will see on road test. Throttle now works fine. but P1=0 it didn't work.
otherDoc
edit: Still gotta use my cheat sheet for the P stuff and it is at the other end of the house.

I think we are talking about different things. I'm on about simple user compands. Power level 1 is 6kmh. In programming terms I dunno what P1 is although I did see a list somewhere.

Did you figure the grey loop? You were saying it might be brake. Is this because using it switched the motor off?

All the other wires make perfect sense, I'm just left with this grey pair and no way of switching between 36 and 48. If it is acting like a brake then I think my search has ended. Your selecting 48v and as your using a 36v pack your hitting lvc.

If I'm on the right track, We tell the controller 36 or 48 using the grey wires. Then with the lcd we can set the deviation. I theorise that with the right deviation allowance, the 48v setting could allow a 36v battery. It would just never appear very charged.

What were you doing with the greys to make it brake?

Brakes are a stereo pair of black 3 pin connectors. Wired red yellow blue. IIRC the red is just power for hidden sensor brakes. Brake pull types connect the blue and yellow together. Leaving the red redundant.

 

[Avitt]

Well I did a couple of things and the bike runs fine on the test stand. Which proves nothing! It is raining again and they predict SNOW in South Alabama! Now that is strange. Anyhoo I used conductive grease on the connector with the meter and found out the grey wire is the resistive brake (a little bit) I like it because it just comes on when you release the throttle but you can feather it to avoid any braking. So everything works fine on the stand ! Whoopie. Don't know when I will ride again, maybe in the freeze tomorrow. Just gotta test to see if the meter (and everything else) cuts out. If not, it is fine. If it does, short the meter wires, cause I am sure (almost) it is the meter, not the controller. I'll report soon, I hope.
otherDoc
The meter has a blue wire which is called the "Ignition lock" which sounds like the orange/red wire that used to be needed to be connected with the positive battery wire for the controller to run.

Docnjoj, if you still have your bike in the stand, can you run a little test? With the grey wires connected, accelerate to max speed, release the throttle, and measure the amount of time it takes for the wheel to completely stop spinning. Then repeat with the grey wires disconnected.

I'd really like to know the purpose of the grey wires...But I have a geared motor, so I can't prove or disprove that they're for resistive braking.

 

[friendly1uk]

Well I did a couple of things and the bike runs fine on the test stand. Which proves nothing! It is raining again and they predict SNOW in South Alabama! Now that is strange. Anyhoo I used conductive grease on the connector with the meter and found out the grey wire is the resistive brake (a little bit) I like it because it just comes on when you release the throttle but you can feather it to avoid any braking. So everything works fine on the stand ! Whoopie. Don't know when I will ride again, maybe in the freeze tomorrow. Just gotta test to see if the meter (and everything else) cuts out. If not, it is fine. If it does, short the meter wires, cause I am sure (almost) it is the meter, not the controller. I'll report soon, I hope.
otherDoc
The meter has a blue wire which is called the "Ignition lock" which sounds like the orange/red wire that used to be needed to be connected with the positive battery wire for the controller to run.

Docnjoj, if you still have your bike in the stand, can you run a little test? With the grey wires connected, accelerate to max speed, release the throttle, and measure the amount of time it takes for the wheel to completely stop spinning. Then repeat with the grey wires disconnected.

I'd really like to know the purpose of the grey wires...But I have a geared motor, so I can't prove or disprove that they're for resistive braking.

That won't test anything. He would have to touch the brake wires together to activate the regenerative braking.

From what I have seen (through limited reading) Non of these or their lineage have had regen. What this range have had is multi-voltage by pulling wires apart. This unit also has multi-voltage that we can't figure, and a wire pair we can't figure, and stories of them cutting out at unexpected charge levels. There is no doubt in my mind that these wires are voltage selection. I just can't get away from the idea. Everything everybody says points to it.

 

[docnjoj]

I set P5 at 0 and the battery appears full. It was at about 1/2 when I used 15. The grey wire does slow down the wheel a bit on the stand with throttle off, and it is fairly effective brake (but fast and weak) when I cone off the throttle riding the bike

. Friendly1 and Avitt it is certainly possible that there is a voltage controller wire but the instructions imply that the controller will just "read" that voltage and take it in stride. I don't have 48 volts anymore to test with. P5 could be LVC. I will try that again for a test after the projected ice and snow leave in about a day or two. Bummer! If P5 really is LVC, then the cutout shuts off everything. Not a great design.
otherDoc

 

[Avitt]

I contacted Su Zhou Kunteng Electronics, who seem to be the manufacturers of the controllers, to ask about the P5 value. I was hoping that I would get some type of logical formula for setting it.

I explained that I am using a 50V NCM battery, and provided max and min voltages.

I did hear back from them, but the information was very cryptic:

We think different Li-ion battery have the different discharge curve and parameter.
Our suggestion is setting it to "5" or "6" at winter. In the summer you setting "14" is good.

I came back and said I was in warm Southern CA, and also asked if I would be better off setting P5 to 0. Their response:

You set the value to 11~14 will very good. But we don`t suggest set the value to 0.

Finally, I asked if P5 actually has the effect of cutting out the battery at lvc, or if it's just used to calibrate the battery display on the LCD. I also asked about the purpose of the grey wire loop.

But the line has gone dead...Probably until after Chinese New Year.

 

[friendly1uk]

. Friendly1 and Avitt it is certainly possible that there is a voltage controller wire but the instructions imply that the controller will just "read" that voltage and take it in stride.
otherDoc

Where have you seen instructions? I can only see s06s one's.

I don't think the controller can just look and know. A 48v pack could be 13s of lipo, and lipo cells are flat at 2.7v according to the people that actually make them. That means a 48v pack is still working at 35.1V which is a lot lower than a charged 36v pack. Thus, If you connect the controller to a 38v supply, which battery is that? It could be either. The controller must need telling and there is only one way to do so.

 

[Avitt]

I don't think the controller can just look and know. A 48v pack could be 13s of lipo, and lipo cells are flat at 2.7v according to the people that actually make them. That means a 48v pack is still working at 35.1V which is a lot lower than a charged 36v pack. Thus, If you connect the controller to a 38v supply, which battery is that? It could be either. The controller must need telling and there is only one way to do so.

But then how would the voltage be set on the earlier versions of the S12S, which don't have the grey wire loop?

 

[docnjoj]

I think the instructions for the S06S/P are the best we get right now. They don't include either the blue/black or the grey loops. P5 seems to come as close as I can see for detecting battery voltage, but it certainly is not clear.
otherDoc

 

[docnjoj]

I think the instructions for the S06S/P are the best we get right now. They don't include either the blue/black or the grey loops. P5 seems to come as close as I can see for detecting battery voltage, but it certainly is not clear.
otherDoc

I was given the word from BMSBattery that the Blue/Black loop is Cruise and that seems to be accurate. I know there is a difference in braking when the grey loop is open or closed, so I still think the controller detects voltage internally without the loops.
We are getting freezing rain down here in the sub-tropics, so no testing today. My wife and I may be the only folks in Fairhope that can drive on ice, so we are DEFINITELY NOT going on the roads!

 

[d8veh]

I've just read the explanation of P5 again. The way I understand it is that it's a damping factor, so that you can see your actual battery capacity . If you set it to zero, there will be no damping so that the bars on the display go up and down as your battery sags under load.

today, I had a good look at the PCB. I can't see ant way that a user could change anything to set the voltage. I couldn't find any dividers for the cpu to measure the voltage, but is was impossible to follow the traces, so there could be one hiding somewhere.

 

[friendly1uk]

I'm not sure about greys on early units, but I'm balding from all this head scratching. Good catch.
docnjoj, you don't actually have brakes do you? Nothing to actually tell the controller to enter regen mode.
Whatever these wires are they they don't have the right kind of termination to continue the wiring around the bike. Unlike the cruise control that does.
I can't escape the voltage idea. It says 30/40v lvc and a 36v pack goes over 40v when full. I do note however that the meter requires a short time to stabilise, needing to see a bit of use before it will display. Perhaps the story lies in how they sag.

Here is a similar manual http://king-meter.de/images/download/bedienungsanleitung/KM-JLCD%201.pdf
The same site has a similar unit where each battery segment seems to want setting http://king-meter.de/images/download/bedienungsanleitung/KM-KM5S%203.pdf

edit:
KT_LCD Apparatus Advanced Configuration Options Function
KT_LCD apparatus advanced setup function is only usable to professional technician.Advanced option parameter：
P1_motor character parameter,P2_motor velocity signal pulse parameter,P3_Power-aided mode parameter, P4 is the
startup mode , P5 is the power monitoring mode.
1.Enter advanced setup interface
A.,The advanced setup is not accessible unless f irstly enter the general setup menu(such as velocity-limitation
parameter, wheel diameter parameter, metric or English unit selection).
B.Press the button SW to stop the three common parameters from flashing.
C.Press the button UP and DOWN synchronously for 2 seconds to enter the advanced option setup interface.
2.Set advanced option parameter P1
P1 is motor character parameter, and equals to reduction ratio multiplied by rotor alnico number.,If decimal fraction
appears, round off first.,After enter the advanced setup interface, it is found that the parameter P1 flashes, you could use
the button UP and DOWN to adjust the P1.
3.Set advanced option parameter P2
P2 is motor velocity signal pulse parameter.Afterset the P1,short-press the button SW to set the parameter P2.If the
wheel rotates one time, the pulse equals one, then P2 is set as one ,if the wheel rotates one time, thepulse equals six, then
P2 is set as six. If the motor is not equipped with velocity signal outputting function, you could set the PS as 0.Attention:if
P2 is set as zero ,the following defect maybe appear,when the motor stop rotating or the internal rotor rotates slower than
the external rotor, the velocity indicated on the apparatus may be incorrect.
4.Set advanced option parameter P3
The P3 default setting is zero, power-aided mode i s five speedy grade. If the P3 is set as one, it indicates that the
power-aided mode is five-grade torque drive mode.Parameter should be determined according to the function of the
controller, the setting method is as same as described hereinbefore.
All the advanced option parameter setup finishes, long-press the button SW to save the settings and exit.
5. Set the Advanced Parameters P4
P4 is the startup mode of the switch-handle. P4 equals to 1, indicating a non-zero startup mode of the switch-handle
(that is to say the switch-handle can only be effective after the start of the pedal power). When P4 equals to 0, it means the
switch-handle is on zero startup mode, (that is to say the switch-handle can start the motor directly).
6. Set the Advanced Parameters P5
P5 is the power monitoring mode. P5 equals to 0, indicating the power monitor is under the mode of "immediate voltage".
In other word, it is the method to judge the battery power according to the immediate voltage of the battery. When P5 equals
to a specified parameter, the battery monitor is under the mode of "smart power" (the parameter is determined on the basis
of the battery characteristics, it is generally between 4-11 for the common 24V lithium,
and 5_15 for 36V lithium).
7. Parameter Saving
Press on SW key for long time to save and exit the condition of configuration
parameters at the same time after the adjustment ofthe configuration parameter.
8. Installation Method for Vehicle Speed Sensor
When the KT_LCD instrument matches the high-speed motor without signal for
speed output (with built-in clutch), it requires anexternal vehicle speed sensor. The
installation method of the external vehicle speed sensor refers to the right picture.
Note the relative position relationships of magnet and sensor. When the KT_LCD
instrument is connected to the external vehicle speed sensor, set the parameter of P2
as 1.
Released by Suzhou Kunteng Electronics CO., Ltd

 

[docnjoj]

Yep Friendly1, that is the same as mine. I'm still thinking P5 has something to do with LVC. We have snow in our yard for the first time ever and temp F is about 30 going down to 20's tonite. No bike testing here for a few days.
otherDoc

 

[docnjoj]

Update: Not much. There is still snow on the ground here in sub-tropical Alabama and the temp is below 30F. Yuk! Now I know why we moved from Vermont. Huddled under blankets with the fireplace going.
Anyhoo I hope to test the P5=0 tomorrow. If this is an LVC that may cure the cutouts. I hope so. Otherwise I will connect wires 1 and 2 ( positive and "ignition) and see if the meter stays on and cutouts stop.
otherDoc

edit: This could be bad if the meter needs to switch the volts but on other controllers the ignition and +36 are connected to allow starting the controller. Just theory at this point but the cutouts are real. I use AMP20 pouches and they don't sag much.

 

[docnjoj]

OK some dangerous news. We went out on a 20 mile ride and the S12S controller with LCD screen cut out 13 times. It just went blank and there was no power! I pushed the middle button on the meter and it would restart, but one cutout happened in the middle of a well traveled street trying to get across! This is dangerous!
Tomorrow I will try setting P5= 5 even though I have 36 volts and see if it stays on. If not I have to remove the meter and jumper 1/2 and 3/5 and see if the controller stays on. I will write to BMSBattery and tell them of the fault and the danger involved.
This sucks!
otherDoc

 

[Avitt]

With so many failures, were you able to identify any trends? Did cutouts occur only when you were on the throttle, or under high amperage conditions? Or were they completely random?

I'm wondering if there is some threshold trigger in play, or if this might even be a mechanical issue. (If you disconnect and reconnect the lcd and controller, it will exhibit a similar failure mode.)

 

[docnjoj]

With so many failures, were you able to identify any trends? Did cutouts occur only when you were on the throttle, or under high amperage conditions? Or were they completely random?

I'm wondering if there is some threshold trigger in play, or if this might even be a mechanical issue. (If you disconnect and reconnect the lcd and controller, it will exhibit a similar failure mode.)

Unfortunately there seems to be no trend. It cut out up hill, downhill and on level ground. It also cut out a few times just coasting. Really an intermittent problem, the worst kind.
otherDoc

 

[patpatbut]

Have you a new one to try?

I have a similar problem on s06s

Pat

 

[docnjoj]

I may have a solution (brainstorm ) I am going to connect the #1 wire to #2. The #1has 36 volts, I believe. Will test with VOM first. The #2blue wire) is called ignition. That sounds like the standard ignition wire we connect with + battery wire on most controllers. I don't think it will smoke the controller, since it is one of the two "shorts" that they recommend if you don't use the meter. It may do damage to the meter, but I am almost sure it is that meter that is causing cutoffs. Critique is welcome.
otherDoc
Oh yeah. To get rid of the e-brake you connect the grey wire. Strange. To get rid of Cruise (I did because it is dangerous without the brake cut off) disconnect the blue loop.

 

[docnjoj]

Have you a new one to try?

I have a similar problem on s06s

Pat

Yes I have a new one. I also think that the original one that I thought I blew up is also working, and the failure was due to a reset of the meter when I had the wrong hall/phase combo. It is correct now and really powerful and quiet and smooth. A great controller if it would only not cut out arbitrarily.
otherDoc

 

[mvly]

Sounds dangerous to me if a controller cuts out randomly. My commutes put me with fast moving traffic and if the throttle cuts out, there is not much the car behind me can do to stop before running into me.

I rather use something reliable like Kelly controllers.

 

[ev tocak]

its cutting out in 10 min intervals , i have similar older model . it is allways like that if teh speed sensor is not working or you leave it disconnected

 

[docnjoj]

its cutting out in 10 min intervals , i have similar older model . it is allways like that if teh speed sensor is not working or you leave it disconnected

I have a Speed Sensor but it seems odd that mine did not cut out at any regular interval, and I did time it. It ranged from 5 min to 15 min. Are you saying that the speed sensor will eliminate cutouts? I have one but it is not hooked up.
otherDoc

 

[ev tocak]

I have a Speed Sensor but it seems odd that mine did not cut out at any regular interval, and I did time it. It ranged from 5 min to 15 min. Are you saying that the speed sensor will eliminate cutouts? I have one but it is not hooked up.
otherDoc

yes it should be hooked up and measuring to avoid cutouts