Has anyone tried ebikes.ca's Nine Continent hub motor?

[methods]

Nice!

I just swapped my 2806 (20") into a 26" rim.
Did a 2 cross pattern:



I am now running at 48V 50A.
It pulls fairly steady at 2,400W
Top average speed is around 25mph (28 on fresh pack)
Torque is good.

Pulled the hall sensor wires out for Immediate start.

Has a great purr running at full speed.

On a cool night (50ish) motor gets just noticeably warm
(i.e. warm in a spot or two but not uniformly warm)

Much higher build quality than anything made by Crystalyte.

-methods

 

[spike]

Nice!

I am now running at 48V 50A.
It pulls fairly steady at 2,400W
Top average speed is around 25mph (28 on fresh pack)
Torque is good.
Pulled the hall sensor wires out for Immediate start.
Has a great purr running at full speed.
Much higher build quality than anything made by Crystalyte.
-methods

Thanks Methods

Sounds very similar but at 28 Mph you're getting a fair bit more speed than I am. My wheeI looks a bit different too. I'll post some pics soon to show what I mean. I found the immediate start to be a bit faster with more torque. The only concern I have is that the CA shows my batts as having 6+ Ah when they should be reading 20Ah. I'm either mis-interpreting the reading or I need some new batts. Think I'll try some 60V LiPos 8)

 

[methods]

My wheel is a 2 cross
Yours is a 1 cross (most likely)
My wheel build was very time consuming

Did you calibrate the CA to the shunt you are using?
Needs to be dead on.

The reason I am going faster is because I have the 20" 2806 hub in a 26" wheel. You probably have the 26" 2807 hub in the 26" wheel.
The freewheel speed of my hub is exactly dead on with the simulator.

I ran 60V for an hour
It was nice.
Watch the heat!

-methods

 

[nomad85]

The only concern I have is that the CA shows my batts as having 6+ Ah when they should be reading 20Ah. I'm either mis-interpreting the reading or I need some new batts.

The CA shows you what you have used, not what you have left. You can reset it by holding the button for a few seconds. You will probably have to calibrate the CA to get accurate readings, but it should be close without adjusting.

 

[spike]

My wheel is a 2 cross
Yours is a 1 cross (most likely)
My wheel build was very time consuming

Did you calibrate the CA to the shunt you are using?
Needs to be dead on.

The reason I am going faster is because I have the 20" 2806 hub in a 26" wheel. You probably have the 26" 2807 hub in the 26" wheel.
The freewheel speed of my hub is exactly dead on with the simulator.

I ran 60V for an hour
It was nice.
Watch the heat!

-methods

Yep the wheel is 1 cross. I would rebuild it if it was a front hub, but a rear hub is beyond my basic wheel building skills.
According to Justin the shunt I'm using should be OK as-is but I'll take another look at that. I'll do a reset and start again.
I think I do have the 2807 so that explains the slower speed. I'm happy with the speed anyway, just wanted to understand the difference.
Finding time for an hours ride is the problem (new baby girl), but I'll keep checking the hub temp after each ride for a while. Thanks.

 

[spike]

The only concern I have is that the CA shows my batts as having 6+ Ah when they should be reading 20Ah. I'm either mis-interpreting the reading or I need some new batts.

The CA shows you what you have used, not what you have left. You can reset it by holding the button for a few seconds. You will probably have to calibrate the CA to get accurate readings, but it should be close without adjusting.

Thanks Nomad. That's a relief. I've had the batts a while now but they weren't cheap. According to Justin the shunt I'm using should be OK as-is but I'll check again and do a reset.

 

[nomad85]

Thanks Nomad. That's a relief. I've had the batts a while now but they weren't cheap. According to Justin the shunt I'm using should be OK as-is but I'll check again and do a reset.

No problem, yeah it should be pretty accurate, but if you have another tool like a watts up meter you could compare the reading and dial in the CA even further if you want. You will know if you batteries are good if you can get to or close to the rated amp hours on a discharge, if the power cuts out before the CA reads the expected Ah the batts may be getting old, 1-2 ah below is ok. either way its good to know how far you can go. Each time you charge the battery you should reset the CA to start a new "cycle". That way you can tell how much battery you have used on that charge and can plan accordingly. best of luck with the bike and the little one(congrats)

 

[cycle9]

I got a Forsen hub motor.

I started to gain on him later in the ride but not by much. He's also probably 50 lbs lighter than me too so maybe that made a difference.

The Forsen has a much smaller stator radius. This makes a big difference in torque. The Forsens were never very torquey motors, the NineContinents much moreso. The BMC/eZee/8fun accomplish torque through gears rather than larger stator radius.... We're continuing to compare all these motors, later this spring we'll have a real bake-off of all of them (since we happen to have them all on hand.... Crystalyte, NineContinent, BMC V1/V2, 8Fun, eZee, BionX, and soon the StokeMonkey... we sold out the Forsens, though). A key will be making sure bikes are of equal weight. If you want to see how much difference 50 lbs makes, have a look at our video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuPOj2SkgDc The 50 lbs difference between the two of us was much more than the difference between the two motors (though the motors also were different).

Morgan

 

[Drunkskunk]

I see Ebikes.ca just has a front mounted pedal first. I wonder when we can expect to see an instant start rear mounted version with disc brake?

 

[recumbent]

I wonder when we can expect to see an instant start rear mounted version with disc brake?

I think instant start is just changing the controler, then attach the wire to the motor. The hall sensors are already in place.

But a rear wheel would be nice, and so would more selective choice of parts, like just the wheel seperatly.

 

[nomad85]

Mine is a rear wheel, not disk hub though. Its also immediate start, and I just wired my Cycle Analyst to it. (mine came from ampedbikes.com) ebikes.ca doesn't stock the rear version because it doest work with 7 speed freewheels.

 

[E-Ticket]

My immediate-start, 9 Continents-based rear hubmotor kit from AmpedBikes has served me well for over 800 miles. AmpedBikes offers a high quality product and has provided me with very good service. It's clear Danny runs his business with a passion.

FWIW, I replaced the kit's original freewheel with a 7-speed freewheel (11T-30T) supplied by ebikes.ca. Yes, clearances are tight, but manageable. With the bike's 42T front ring, I can now pedal along at the bike's typical 23MPH cruising speed on the flats.

Another recent project was retrofitting a disk brake to this same motor with a bit of ghetto-fab. More details at: http://www.ampedbikes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=304

*Unfortunately, since day one, I've been plagued by broken spokes which I've been replacing with Sapim 14G and trying to keep the rim trued and tight, etc., but with limited success. My next major project may be to learn how to build a strong and properly dished wheel... (Advice welcome! :wink: )

 

[cycle9]

*Unfortunately, since day one, I've been plagued by broken spokes which I've been replacing with Sapim 14G and trying to keep the rim trued and tight, etc., but with limited success. My next major project may be to learn how to build a strong and properly dished wheel... (Advice welcome! )

We had another customer with the broken spokes problem on a rear NC kit (from Amped), and we rebuilt his wheel for him. I have a few suggestions about that (not in order of importance):

1. Make sure dishing is proper and even. This is far easier with a professional stand like the Park truing stand, but can be done other ways. If you know someone who has one of those stands, it will save you loads of time.

2. It is vital to get very even spoke tension. Not to name any names, but I have seen many different types of wheels from China, and the QC on wheel builds is highly variable. Just solving this will help a lot.

3. It looks like yours was built 1X with all elbows on the inside. I think it may be stronger to have the pulling (trailing) spokes elbows inside, and leading spokes elbows outside, with a twist where they cross, so that they are in strong physical contact. That tends to distribute the load better.

4. For my own bikes, given the choice between a thicker spoke (e.g. 12 ga) or a slightly thinner spoke that is butted (e.g. 13 to 14 ga, like the Wheelsmith DH13), I would always choose the butted. The reason is that far and away the most common breakage is at the elbow - it is the weakest point. In a straight gauge spoke, it is where all the tension accumulates. However, in a butted spoke, there is a long, straight section of spoke that is narrower, and acts like a spring. That moves the flexing away from the spoke bend and out to the straight part. For example, back in the days of my Currie USPD (w/600W BMC motor), it used an adapter plate mated directly to the spokes, and it was really hard on them. Plus, I was using that wheel on the rear of my Xtracycle, which regularly carried big loads. I kept breaking spokes. I rebuilt my wheel with DT Swiss Alpine III triple butted spokes, and a beefy rim that could take high spoke tension (Sun Mammoth), and never had another breakage. Those kind of butted spokes are used on tandems and on downhill bikes. We now do all our wheel builds with them, unless someone asks for otherwise. I think they will last longer than straight gauge 12 spokes.

5. Patience, patience, and more patience, especially if it is your first time. It is critical to bring up tension slowly and evenly.

Best of luck,
Morgan

 

[wanders]

I am thoroughly confused now...

E-ticket's bike above is clearly the Nine Continents hub on the rear, with a disc brake. I thought this was an unavailable configuration. If this is the normal configuration, I'm bummed if I missed out on the bargain Nine Continents clearout. Especially if the only thing wrong with the wheel is the dish amount, which is really easy to fix.

Cycle9's comments on wheel building and spokes are right on the money. I recently built up a pair of wheels for my eventual donor bike and used Sapim "Strong" 13-butted-to-14-gauge spokes, and if the wheels are built carefully these spokes yield an incredibly strong wheel, very tight and true. When I was finished with my wheels, they were no more than .25mm out of true in any direction, the spokes were evenly tensioned and had similar musical pitch, and when you hit the wheel with your open palm against the spokes, it literally rings like a bell. Amazing.

So the whole "12 gauge spokes are stronger" thing is nonsense IMHO. What is stronger is using very high quality spokes with very strong elbows, and a careful wheel builder who takes his time.

 

[E-Ticket]

(This thread has been meandering a bit, but...)

Thanks Cycle9 and wanders for offering such detailed suggestions regarding my spoke issues. Not that I've asked at LBSs, but I suspect many would refuse to touch a hubmotor wheel, but maybe not. For me, developing the skill to perform a DIY wheel build correctly would be worthwhile and restore a sense of control by resolving spoke integrity and rim offset issues, as well as providing an opportunity switch rims to match the black color of the front rim. :wink: I'm fairly certain I could manage a wheel build, but I'm a bit hesitant of being without a e-ride for a long time if the project becomes a struggle. FWIW, my spokes always break at the hub on the freewheel side, however the new disk brake may now encourage some left side spoke failures as well.

- Is there an advantage of e-bike wheel building with 1X vs 2X vs xX, etc?
- Could you recommend any economical and reliable sources of quality spokes for e-bike use?

I am thoroughly confused now...
E-ticket's bike above is clearly the Nine Continents hub on the rear, with a disc brake. I thought this was an unavailable configuration. If this is the normal configuration, I'm bummed if I missed out on the bargain Nine Continents clearout.

Yes, the motor is a rear Nine Continents hub, but from AmpedBikes. As far as I know, the threaded left side cover is standard, but mine is the only one that has been retrofitted with a rear disk. I also would have liked to have picked up a bargain motor from the other vendor's clearance sale...

 

[Vim]

We had another customer with the broken spokes problem on a rear NC kit (from Amped), and we rebuilt his wheel for him.

Hey that's me!

Hi Morgan,
I've just gotta tell you, I was floored at how nice this wheel is that you guys built me! The spokes and pattern you chose are awesome, and the workmanship is top notch. It's as true as can be and tight as a drum but nice cushy ride, and no more plinky spokes. It's so great to finally have the wheel centered now. You guys really know the deal on building hub motor wheels. Kudos to you and Chris.

It's a nice strong Sun Rhyno Lite rim with eyelets. I don't know what brand or gauge spokes used but they're obviously higher quality than the stock 12g spokes. Morgan, could you tell me what brand and gauge they are?

 

[cycle9]

- Is there an advantage of e-bike wheel building with 1X vs 2X vs xX, etc?
- Could you recommend any economical and reliable sources of quality spokes for e-bike use?

wanders wrote:
I am thoroughly confused now...
E-ticket's bike above is clearly the Nine Continents hub on the rear, with a disc brake. I thought this was an unavailable configuration. If this is the normal configuration, I'm bummed if I missed out on the bargain Nine Continents clearout.

Yes, the motor is a rear Nine Continents hub, but from AmpedBikes. As far as I know, the threaded left side cover is standard, but mine is the only one that has been retrofitted with a rear disk. I also would have liked to have picked up a bargain motor from the other vendor's clearance sale...

Hey E-ticket,
For cross pattern, the answer is that *it all depends*. Generally, a higher number of crosses makes a stronger wheel, because the tension is more evenly distributed. That said, there is a big limitation to higher cross numbers. The second most common place for spoke breakage is at the nipple. When building a wheel on one of these motors, using 2X or higher induces a large spoke bend at the nipple. Tension accumulates there, and is likely to break. So, while in general a 2X would be stronger than 1X for a small hub, I don't think that's the case for the large diameter motor wheels. For a small diameter motor like the BMC, I believe that 2X is possible, though still more spoke bend than I'd like. For the NC, this .

As for spokes, we sell some on our web store. Right now the sizes are limited to the most common ones. However, we have a brand new (not inexpensive) spoke cutting machine on the way, and within 1-2 weeks will be able to provide spokes in nearly any length. The main ones we stock for these motors are Wheelsmith DH13 (butted 13-14) and DT Swiss Alpine III (triple butted, 13-15-14). You can also get custom cut spokes from ebikes.ca. If you want straight 12 gage, they are probably the best source I know of. And, they are very friendly.

Morgan

 

[cycle9]

We had another customer with the broken spokes problem on a rear NC kit (from Amped), and we rebuilt his wheel for him.

Hey that's me!

Hi Morgan,
I've just gotta tell you, I was floored at how nice this wheel is that you guys built me! The spokes and pattern you chose are awesome, and the workmanship is top notch. It's as true as can be and tight as a drum but nice cushy ride, and no more plinky spokes. It's so great to finally have the wheel centered now. You guys really know the deal on building hub motor wheels. Kudos to you and Chris.

It's a nice strong Sun Rhyno Lite rim with eyelets. I don't know what brand or gauge spokes used but they're obviously higher quality than the stock 12g spokes. Morgan, could you tell me what brand and gauge they are?

Hey, it's great to hear that it is working well for you. It is amazing the difference a good wheel build makes, isn't it?

We got those spokes from ebikes.ca, since they can custom cut in any length. I would have slightly preferred to use the butted spokes for your build, but we didn't want to make you wait until our new spoke cutter arrived. And, I'm sure those will last a long time.

I love those Sun rims for e-bikes. Both the Mammoth (no longer sold in US) and the Rhyno Lite are bomber. The Ryhno lite is essentially the same rim used on many of the Crystalyte wheels, it is just not labeled as such on the latter. There is a new Rhyno Lite XL that replaces the Mammoth as the wide downhill oriented rim, I have yet to try one, but will soon (when our stock of remaining Mammoths gets used up).

Again, thanks for giving us the chance to help with your wheel, I hope it continues to work well for you!

Morgan

 

[wanders]

For me, developing the skill to perform a DIY wheel build correctly would be worthwhile and restore a sense of control by resolving spoke integrity and rim offset issues, as well as providing an opportunity switch rims to match the black color of the front rim.

E-Ticket, you are correct in that building your own wheels opens up a lot of options. See this post for my comments and references on wheel building. The book by Musson is particularly recommended. Wheelbuilding is neither expensive nor difficult, but it does take patience. And despite what pro wheelbuilders tell you, no magic is necessary :wink:

 

[spike]

Why does the motor make a growling noise at low speed and a high pitch singing noise under load up to ~20km/h? After that it goes almost silent. Even under high load it stays quiet as long as the speed is > 20km/h. Is there some case mod we can make to stop the resonance? Or is it a controller issue that can be fixed with a bit of tweaking?

Cheers

Spike

 

[recumbent]

Is there some case mod we can make to stop the resonance?

My Clyte 406 makes this noise also, a little, but the NC motors have a thinner cover over the motor and wondering if some noise suppresion glued onto the insides of the cover would help. Like some automotive spray they use for doors to suppress noise, it' dries as a stiff foam.

 

[Drunkskunk]

the thing is built like a giant aluminum drum, its going to make noise. I noticed it makes significantly more noise than my 40X series, but it's also much bigger. My 408/4012 makes noise as well, but it's smaller size means it's quieter.

I also notice the freewheel wick as i coast along has an echoy (is that a word? echoy?) tone and is much louder than the same freewheel on the 40X series.

I think some bed liner might help silence it, but would also hold in the heat. It is much louder than a 40X, but thats not saying much. All in all, its still quiet compared to a geared hub. or one of those walmart Izips.

 

[spike]

True it's already quiet compared to the geared motors. I noticed that if I use the pedal first controller (same V and A) then the motor is quieter at low speed. Made me wonder if it was partly to do with phase timing. My hub doesn't get hot at 48V 35A so some kind of noise damping on the case might be worth experimenting with (if I can find some time to play). The other thing I thought might help is more amps (torque) so the motor doesn't struggle as much at low speed. I'll solder up the shunt on one of controllers and give it a whirl this weekend. If I have any success I'll report back.

Cheers

Spike

 

[spike]

I finally got around to trying some sound suppression on the NC. I've used a Dynamat Xtreme Speaker Kit on the inside of the hub plates. The ~20km/hr "singing" noise has gone but the low speed "growl" is still there (I tried extra solder on the shunt). No idea how long it will last. It' s self-adhesive and just presses on. From the reviews the Dynamat sheets can withstand a lot of heat but I doubt they've been used in this way before. Any problems and I'll update.

 

[GTA1]

Interesting that the coils are hand wound ---- no wonder they are charging so much for it.