Magnesium-ion batteries (For the future)

Hmm.

Liveforphysics recently posted that the cost of lithium was almost insignificant in even cheap Li-ion batts compared to overall cost of manufacture.
 
This historic high of already mined, refined, processed 99% pure lithium metal delivered in China is $63,000usd per metric ton. ($28/lbs)

The 24kWh Nissan leaf battery uses ~9lbs of lithium. The active mass of lithium that actually moves from anode/cathode when you charge/discharge the battery is ~4grams.

That's a cost of ~$257 in lithium (which nearly all becomes part of a complex cathode structure), and of that cost, the 4g of lithium ions that are what give and accept electrons to store and discharge the energy the packs holds are ~$0.51.

If the Nissan Leaf battery costs say, $14,000usd to make, the worst case lithium cost in the battery is ~1.8% of the price of the battery. Of all the places to focus on cutting costs in the battery, even if you take that 1.8% cost down to zero, you still didn't make any noticeable impact on the cost of the battery.


The awesome part of Mg ions is the ability to be ++ charge carriers rather than lithium's ability to only be a + charge carrier. That means each Mg ion that passes through the seperator and swaps sides gives you 2 electrons rather than one, and the voltage of those electrons it gives is high. If you could wave a magic wand and replace those 4g of active lithium ions with the same number of Mg ions (which would weigh ~13g rather than 4g) in a battery (and somehow have the solvent work, and seperator work, and annode and cathode work etc etc), you would get an immediate boost of about 250% more energy stored in that battery. Since Mg doesn't tend to form dendrites like lithium (the reason the early metalic lithium anode batteries burned/failed, and why you shouldn't try to recharge lithium primary cells etc), Mg can avoid needing a bulky/heavy medium on the anode to store itself, it can just plate sheets of Mg metal (no lithium in metalic form should ever exist in a healthy lithium ion battery). This saves the volume/weight/space of needing the graphite layer bonded to the copper foil we all currently use in our various types of lithium batteries, and as a result enables the energy density to climb 30-40% ontop of the ~2.5x gains from 2 electrons and higher voltage, for a total of about 3.25x higher energy density than lithium ion batteries.

That's the part I get jazzed about over Mg based batteries rather than the cost of Mg being cheap and abundant. I want a 3kWh battery on my bicycle taking up the space and weight of a little 1kWh battery. Or a Nissan leaf or Zero/Brammo/lightning/mission motorcycle that does ~350miles of range on a charge rather than ~100miles. That would be super rad for the electric revolution replacing fossil fuels. :)
 
liveforphysics said:
...
That's the part I get jazzed about over Mg based batteries rather than the cost of Mg being cheap and abundant. I want a 3kWh battery on my bicycle taking up the space and weight of a little 1kWh battery. Or a Nissan leaf or Zero/Brammo/lightning/mission motorcycle that does ~350miles of range on a charge rather than ~100miles. That would be super rad for the electric revolution replacing fossil fuels. :)
That sounded wonderful. So when can we, the typical consumers, buy this Mg-ion battery?
 
I hope some of these advances pan out. I've been hearing about an explosion in energy storage since i started paying attention to EVs in 2008.

But i am still holding contests with myself to see how much RC Lipo i can jam onto an upright mountain bike ( current record: ~2.5kw-hr ). But by the time the bike is full, it handles like crap..

Lithium battery tech jumped about +100whr/kg in a decade, so i guess there's no reason to not have hope for what comes next. But we did kinda need this technology for a few decades now :lol:
 
rad.jpg
 
It really sounded like the nanotube technology was going to pan out in sooner than ten years but I'm starting to have doubts.
 
flathill said:


Watched it about 50 times as a kid. Loved every second every time. lol :)
 
SamTexas said:
liveforphysics said:
...
That's the part I get jazzed about over Mg based batteries rather than the cost of Mg being cheap and abundant. I want a 3kWh battery on my bicycle taking up the space and weight of a little 1kWh battery. Or a Nissan leaf or Zero/Brammo/lightning/mission motorcycle that does ~350miles of range on a charge rather than ~100miles. That would be super rad for the electric revolution replacing fossil fuels. :)
That sounded wonderful. So when can we, the typical consumers, buy this Mg-ion battery?
Quoted from article mentioned above "Commercialization of magnesium batteries is more than 10 years away"
 
liveforphysics said:
This historic high of already mined, refined, processed 99% pure lithium metal delivered in China is $63,000usd per metric ton. ($28/lbs)

The 24kWh Nissan leaf battery uses ~9lbs of lithium. The active mass of lithium that actually moves from anode/cathode when you charge/discharge the battery is ~4grams.

That's a cost of ~$257 in lithium (which nearly all becomes part of a complex cathode structure), and of that cost, the 4g of lithium ions that are what give and accept electrons to store and discharge the energy the packs holds are ~$0.51.

If the Nissan Leaf battery costs say, $14,000usd to make, the worst case lithium cost in the battery is ~1.8% of the price of the battery. Of all the places to focus on cutting costs in the battery, even if you take that 1.8% cost down to zero, you still didn't make any noticeable impact on the cost of the battery.


The awesome part of Mg ions is the ability to be ++ charge carriers rather than lithium's ability to only be a + charge carrier. That means each Mg ion that passes through the seperator and swaps sides gives you 2 electrons rather than one, and the voltage of those electrons it gives is high. If you could wave a magic wand and replace those 4g of active lithium ions with the same number of Mg ions (which would weigh ~13g rather than 4g) in a battery (and somehow have the solvent work, and seperator work, and annode and cathode work etc etc), you would get an immediate boost of about 250% more energy stored in that battery. Since Mg doesn't tend to form dendrites like lithium (the reason the early metalic lithium anode batteries burned/failed, and why you shouldn't try to recharge lithium primary cells etc), Mg can avoid needing a bulky/heavy medium on the anode to store itself, it can just plate sheets of Mg metal (no lithium in metalic form should ever exist in a healthy lithium ion battery). This saves the volume/weight/space of needing the graphite layer bonded to the copper foil we all currently use in our various types of lithium batteries, and as a result enables the energy density to climb 30-40% ontop of the ~2.5x gains from 2 electrons and higher voltage, for a total of about 3.25x higher energy density than lithium ion batteries.

That's the part I get jazzed about over Mg based batteries rather than the cost of Mg being cheap and abundant. I want a 3kWh battery on my bicycle taking up the space and weight of a little 1kWh battery. Or a Nissan leaf or Zero/Brammo/lightning/mission motorcycle that does ~350miles of range on a charge rather than ~100miles. That would be super rad for the electric revolution replacing fossil fuels. :)
Whats "RAD" is we have a guy like Luke working so hard to find the next best thing in batteries and I don't think he can be bought! So I know better batteries are on their way. Without Luke and guys like Luke well I would not bother doing what I do either because 50-90% of my builds are base on yup it will work with what I have available for batteries but will work way better when something better comes along.
 
Yet this is the real world

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/k2-energy-systems-inc-reports-sufficient-li-ion-cell-inventory-and-manufacturing-capacity-in-response-to-recent-competitor-bankruptcy-filings-174743321.html

It is a whole new deal now and battery makers are going to have to make money.

Selling stuff like this ?

http://www.amazon.com/K2-K2B12V7EB-Lithium-Phosphate-Battery/dp/B0056BXE6A

Who saw this coming ?

I want a 12v 10ah magnesium-ion battery this style, at WalMart for $19.99 :)

If they design them for full size electric cars only they will go out of business ?

Gotta make them for these !

http://www.walmart.com/cp/Battery-Powered/5353

These are the electric cars that sell ! :)
 
Hey wait. Magnesium. Isn't that the shit that's able to burn underwater? And we thought lithium fires were dangerous... :shock:
 
melodious said:
Hey wait. Magnesium. Isn't that the shit that's able to burn underwater? And we thought lithium fires were dangerous... :shock:

As a metal, Magnesium is about a zillion times less reactive and safer than Lithium. (fortunately no metallic lithium exists in a lithium ion battery so it doesn't really matter, in lithium ion battery fires, the lithium itself isn't even a noticeable contributor)

The wheels on a racecar, the valve covers and clutch covers of high performance motorcycle engines, chainsaw parts, and many other pieces that need to be light and strong are made of magnesium in our everyday world. Keep in mind, titanium and aluminum also burn more impressively than magnesium, and aluminum also can burn in water and evolve hydrogen while burning in water. But we aren't too afraid of a soda can laying around, because in practice it's very difficult to get that reaction started.
 
liveforphysics said:
it's very difficult to get that reaction started.
I concur, as a young lad with a penchant for homemade fireworks/explosives I spent a day and a half grinding a magnesium VW crankcase into powder so we could get that reaction started.
 
The only magnesium I have ever been able to set on fire easily was some magnesium tape intended for the purpose from a chemistry class.
 
IME your average campfire or BBQ is not hot enough to light off bulk Mg or Mg/Al alloy.

Dropping burning Mg ribbon into water extinguishes it. I can only assume that something much larger, like an engine or gearbox casing may be different.
 
When I built the hydro in my avatar, I built/fitted most of the brackets with black iron as it was quick to do. Later I would go to the Boeing Surplus store and buy varies pieces to build them in lighter material that I would shape with a band saw and grinder. Around the bench grinder I'd have lots of al and mag powder. Cleaned it up not often enough. One day I was working with some steel and went to the grinder and the sparks from the steel set the residue on fire. HOT! Saved the building with help of a neighbor. Threw my underwear away however.
One lesson I'll not forget.
 
Crash /Fire rescue teams are getting more concerned over the amount of Al and Mg alloys used in modern road cars.
Once burning ,..and they do BURN...they are very difficult to control or extinguish, and hosing with water can be dangerous.
 
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