Volgood 48V20Ah LiFePO4 Repair by Amberwolf

it only needed about 12Ah, as it's now charged to 3.65V with current at nearly zero. Switching off the Sorenson but leaving the meters attached, the cell drops to 3.64V, flickering up and down 0.01V.

I'll leave it disconnected from the meters and stuff while I'm at work and see what it's at when I come back tonight.
 
I am? Which man? :p Cuz if I am THE MAN, well, I always distrusted THE MAN, the guy in charge, whoever that is. :lol:


I started recharging the next cell group up once I got home and was done with doggie stuff and prep for another big batch of chili to start cooking overnight. I'll just keep charging each cell group this way, till they're all "full", let them all sit a day or two, recheck voltages, and see if any have dropped significantly. If not, then the cells're probably all still at least not "leaky" inside like the one I disconnected (but still haven't physically removed).

Otherwise, I'll just have to hunt down any that are causing drainage, and retest.

Assuming no problems, I'll then test the pack on CrazyBike2 in place of my own nearly identical pack, since it should perform the same but probably with more range than mine.

If that all goes ok, then we'll see what the cell group voltages look like after the pack hits LVC, so we'll know which group(s) have less capacity, beyond the obvious one that's down a cell.
 
Oops...forgot to note that the first cell group did drop in voltage afterward, down to 3.47V as of a few minutes ago (I forget what it was earlier, I've lost the paper I wrote it on. :roll: )

So it is falling, but perhaps not that much more than normal. For instance, the next two groups up from there were at 3.56V and 3.58V before I started single-charging them,

I recharged cell group 2, taking 0.05Ah (not much!) and it's at 3.64V now.

Group 3 is in progress.
 
Still going ok so far, will post a list of all groups when done. None but the first have needed any top-off charge; they're all like the ones above.
 
good work amberwolf. are you going to range test it to the point of cut-out?
 
Yep--I have been rearranging things on CrazyBike2 specifically so I can easily do this:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=462003#p462003
file.php

This pack will go in the rigthside black box, and my vpower pack is in the leftside black box:
file.php

Should be way easier to deal with than in the main center frame space, whcih gets in the way of the chain for pedalling, alhtough it's a lot harder to get the pack in and out, so I may have to modify it just a bit: I may need to cut the flat metal strips that currently connect the two halves of the pack, and wire a longer temporary wire between them (or one with a connector, as I did to my own for the same reason), so I can install and remove each half of the pack separately, since lifting the whole heavy pack out of there from under the seat edge is very awkward and difficult. I practiced with my own pack, and I basically couldn't lift it out at all unless I did it each half at a time. :roll: My hands are too weak to grip the whole thing *and* lift it at the awkward angle all at the same time.
 
Testing/single-group charging completed, with following results:

Start voltage on left, Ah charged with on right. All cell groups charged to 3.64/3.65V, until current was zero. Listed from most negative to most positive. Retested voltage after a few hours, and all cell groups except the most negative were still resting at about 3.6V, while most negative was 3.47V, unchanging even after nearly a day. Note that the most positive cell group started out very high, at 3.8V, and I discharged it down to 3.5V with a car headlight before recharging it to 3.65V.

1.928V 12.671Ah
-----
3.56V 0.05Ah
3.58V 0.047Ah
3.58V 0.042Ah
3.58V 0.045Ah
3.57V 0.048Ah
3.58V 0.044Ah
3.57V 0.040Ah
-----
3.57V 0.048Ah
-----
3.57V 0.045Ah
3.56V 0.051Ah
3.58V 0.064Ah
3.55V 0.056Ah
3.47V 0.344Ah
3.52V 0.108Ah
-----
3.8V/3.5V 0.085Ah


I then installed it on CrazyBike2 in the rightside pod. It's a pretty tight fit; I used a layer of plastic, foam, and the orignal inter-pack insluators between the pack halves, so they can't rub and touch cells. I also used the old cardboard sleeve from my own pack's outer shell to wrap around/under the outer half of this pack so I could just lift it out like a handle later on.

I had to cut the inter-pack tabs at the fold, and run a wire between them instead, long enough to be able to put one half in first, and then the other. it will be replaced with new inter=pack tabs once I am ready to close it all up for sending back to RTLSHIP.

Since this pack doesn't have an Anderson to connect to the bike's existing connector, but instead has a polarized automotive type plug (or maybe it's a Dean?) I dug thru my stuff and found an identical plug on an old SLA float charger/maintainer wallwart. I cut it off the wallwart with a couple feet of cord, and soldered that to CrazyBike2's main SB50 Anderson contacts, at the wire input junction. I'd rather've put Andersons on this pack temporarily, but I could not find any that are not in use or would be way too much trouble to take off and put back on later.


I did a quick one-mile test ride; it's after midnight so I didn't keep riding around (don't wanna set off neighborhood dogs and annoy everyone), but instead will continue testing on my work commute and stuf tomoorrow. I rode as hard as I could, no pedalling, lots of stops and starts with WOT acceleration (lost track after the first dozen or so).

5m 6s trip time
1.093miles
20.4mph max
12.8mph avg

37.2Wh/mile
0.807Ah / 0.8457AH
43.1Wh
59.37Amax

55.2Vstart
53.5Vrest
46.4Vmin

4.8% Regen
0.0387Ah Regen
-8.19A peak Regen
 
Must be discharging by bypassing the bms. The bms didnt like regen when I had it but it was able to discharge over 40A and peak 50-60A tho without tripping.
 
Unless both my Vpower BMS and this one are wired wrong for the output connector (possible, not sure how to tell), then discharge is thru the BMS. Both of these BMSs are virtually identical, AFAICT.

I *know* it's thru the BMS on mine, becuase it cuts discharge off completely when it hits LVC. Regen current has typically been around 8A on mine, too.

Haven't reached that point on this one yet, but it's wired the same as mine, so it should.


Also, I've been tempted to drain mine down to the same voltage as this one, and parallel them, then go riding and see what kind of acceleration and regen I get--I'm not sure if the regen current is limited solely by the voltage of the pack or something in teh controller, or if having two packs absorbing the current would allow higher regen currents.

I guess if I do this I ought to stick a set of paralleled diodes in the path of each pack. ;)
 
is that bike a chain powered drive? how many miles per amp. I can say on my hub motor, about 1.3 to 1.6 miles per amp with moderately hard riding. My weight 170.
 
No, CrazyBike2 is currently hub-powered, a 9C 2807 w/12FET generic (~40A limit). By itself, with just the single battery pack, it's probably around 150lbs. Then I weigh about that, sometimes 160, so call it at least 300lbs bike&rider. Right now it's also got your pack on there too, so add on whatever that weight is.

Typically it gets 25-30Wh/mile without pedalling, call it 27 for a specific number. To get miles/Ah, I'm not sure. Assuming most of the Wh are at 52-ish volts, then 27/52 is 0.52Ah/mile. So inverting that, I get about 1.92miles/Ah.

That's with the usual accelerate hard for a second to get started, then quickly bakc off from WOT and gradually accelerate the rest of the way. On my commute, I usually have to do that about a dozen times in 2.5 miles, depending on traffic. Most of those times, it's accelerating up to about 20MPH, someitmes only 10 (cuz I go thru a parking lot in one place plus at work), and if I have to cross traffic lanes to get to my left turn, I'll probably have to beat traffic there and have to accelerate WOT utnil I reach 20 to get over there (occasionally for safety I'll just keep accelerating to max speed whcih is around 23-24 with the Vpower).

Sometimes, to get going quicker into traffic or from a stop when in a lane of traffic, I'll pedal some from startup to get going just a bit quciker than by motor alone. Or if I am trying to conserve power. But I stop pedalling at about 10MPH because it doesn't do anything after that.

Testing on yours I want to knwo about any problems before it gets sent back, so I am hammering it harder than I would normally. :) So I'm not backing off from WOT until I hit 20 each time, and only in situations where I *have* to get going quicker to deal with traffic am I helping by pedalling at all, at startup from a stop. That's maybe a few seconds once on each leg of the commute.



So far, teh Volgood pack is performing fine, although it seems to sag a bit lower than mine during WOT, and thus doesn't feel like it accelerates as hard/fast. It also doesn't feel like it regens as hard as with my pack, but that might be my imagination because the watt numbers appear to be similar enough during braking, IIRC. 250W-350W from 15-17MPH down to about 10MPH and dropping off after that.

It definitely isn't as high a fully-charged voltage; mine's usually 54V-ish after surface charge is gone, and yours starts at about 52-53V, IIRC.

I do wish I had something like the celllogs, for all 16cell groups, so I could record all the cell groups' performance during a ride at various SOC, as that would tell us even more about the health of the pack.

I forgot to write down the CA data from today's trip before I laid down, so I'll have to get up and get that a bit later.

(actually, I sort of do, in that I have a Venom RC charger that theoretically can log to a computer, but I haven't figured out how to get it to do that yet, to my laptop's USB port)
 
This is the CA data from the discharge test so far, including the above previous CA data. Wh/mile has gone down significantly, to what I typically see on my commutes, probably because there are far fewer stops/starts relative to the distance travelled.

49m 59s trip time
11.76miles
22.2mph max
14.1mph avg

28.5Wh/mile
6.727Ah / 6.9377AH
344.67Wh
60.92Amax

53.7Vstart
52.6Vrest
45.5Vmin

3.1% Regen
0.2091Ah Regen
-8.32A peak Regen

Other than nearly drifting off to sleep once on the way to work and twice on the way home, on the quiet side roads, I havent' had any troubles so far.

If this were the Vpower pack I'd be about halfway thru it's capacity. Assuming it's still about the same as it had been when Icecube57 had it, I should be a bit more than a third of the way thru it, maybe 2/5. We'll see. :)

If I wake up again later, enouhg to work with the DMM, I'll list the cell group voltages. Right now I don't think I could manage it without shorting something out. :roll:
 
I read regen is potentialy harmful to lifepo packs. Any truth to it? Whatever regen I've had would have to happen through the controller as I use regular brakes. I have little or no regen knowledge.
 
Regen always happens thru the controller, whether that be engaged via ebrakes or via "demand speed" type of throttle (where it brakes when you reduce throttle below the actual speed of the vehicle, so it quickly changes to the actual demanded throttle speed).

Regen isn't in and of itself bad for any type of pack, it depends on the BMS design. The BMS in yours is AFAICT the same as mine, and mine has worked with regen just fine all this time. So the BMS isn't an issue in this particular pack, other than perhaps being designed to limit voltage or current coming back thru it somehow (if it does, I don't know how to tell).


The cells themselves in LiFePO4 usually aren't designed for high charging currents, so I would probably not use regen braking at 8A+ down a mile-long hill :lol: but for a few seconds at a time, I don't think it's going to hurt anything.

Realistically, 8A or so is the absolute max peak regen current I get, stopping from 20MPH, and that tapers off to 6 just about instantly, and less than a second later it's only 4, sustained for a few seconds at most, and drops really fast from there. It does re-peak again in the same sequence at what I think is about 15MPH, possibly less, and then belwo 10MPH it tapers off to practicaly nothing; I can still feel the difference between no regen and what little I get, but barely. Below 5MPH it doesnt have any noticeable effect.



If the controller was capable of and set to do max possible regen currents, and theyw ere up to the peak or sustained 30-40A range, or even higher, I can imagine the BMS would complain about that, and the cells might, too. But at the levels we're dealing with here, I think we're ok.
 
Still behavingt itslef. I forgot again to get cell group volages so will have to do that tommorrow; am way too tiedr to be poking around on batteries now.
 
I finally remembered to check cell voltages...but first I decided to turn it on and write down the trip data, whcih I'd also forgotten last time. But it wouldnt' turn on, so I checked my wiring, that was ok, checked voltage, and got zero, which meant that the BMS must've cut the pack off.

It had, because the first cell group was 1.3V. :( I guess taht means there's a leaky cell in there, too. I will have to find out which one it is tomorrow; in the meantime I am partially recharging that group so it doesn't sit low.

All the other groups are 3.25V within a couple hundredths.

IIRC it was at about 6.9Ah used, 460-ish Wh, before I let it sit for the last two days (since I'm on vacation and haven't needed to go to work, and havent' gone anywhere else on the bike.)

So I'll have to retest the pack after finding the bad cell and recharging it.
 
AMberwolf , are you actually getting near 60A peak from a 20Ah duct-tape battery?? :shock: :shock: :shock:

I remember my 36v 20A battery thought bad of giving me 25A and it used to shudder like a demon right up until it got up to some sort of speed, so loathe was it to supply the current.
 
Yes, it easily gives 60A momentary peak, though that is so short I don't typically see that on the display. I do see 40A or so for a very short time, during hard acceleration, like from a stop. The 12FET controller is presumably limited to 40A by default; I haven't changed that.
 
After a whole bunch of distractions today, I finally found the bad cell. It's the end "top" cell in the 2nd row of the first group, circled in red:
View attachment 1
The green circle is the first bad cell I found, same problem and same way.

Closeup of the problem group after repair (including patching the cuts I made in teh tabs/strips):
DSC04880.JPG


I'm now recharging just this group, to about 9Ah, hopefully putting it about the same SOC as the rest of the pack. Then I'll recharge the whole pack, which is probably going to take a while to rebalance it. Probably I'll just charge to first turn-off, then check voltage on group 1, if it's lower than others I'll charge it up more, if it's higher I'll discharge it some with my old 50W halogen till it's voltage matches others, then recharge as a pack.

If I have to I guess I can discharge all the cells down to 3.00V, one group at a time, then recharge the whole pack at once.
 
Ok, well, I slept a lot longer than I meant to (whcih is good, as I need the rest, but I don't have enough time for it), and ended up charging it further than I meant to, to 3.31V, 6.393Ah, 20.7Wh.

So I had to then discharge it (with a 12V 50W halogen bulb) over a couple of hours down to the same voltage as the rest of the groups--3.25V (plus or minus a hundredth on some groups).

That doesn't guarantee the same SOC, but it is the only way I can easily compare between groups. Pack voltage is now 51.9V, and I've started charging the whole pack, using the charger sent with the pack (which has a no-load voltage of 59.6V), thru the TWM I set up with an external power source on it's aux port, so I can track amount of charge.


I'm guessing at about two hours at 3A to reach "full", but I don't know how long to balance. I'll try to remember to check group voltages after the charger stops, to see if any are a lot lower than others, and single-charge those up a bit, if so, to speed up balancing.
 
Over 7Ah in on charging so far, and groups are within about 6 or 7 hundredths of a volt still, measured at the balance wires while charging.

BTW, it's charging at 2.5A, not 3A; not sure why I thought it would be 3.
 
Finished charge at
10.24Ah
555.3Wh
59.50V
All groups from 3.67-3.71V, except group 1 (most negative, just repaired) which is 3.91V, and dropping to 3.90V as I read it; charger is still outputting 140mA at greenlight/fan off.

Disconnected charger and pack voltage dropped to 58.9V, all cell groups appear to have dropped about equally to make up that difference.

Powered on bike, so it's running the CA, the controller, and the CFL taillight and it's DC-DC booster, and voltage dropped to 58.2V just about immediately, then peeked back over several minutes to see it slide down to 57.5V. Cell groups still proportional to what they were at charge termination.


Trip data from last trip before letting it sit was:
44.7Vmin
9.525Ah
485.6Wh
28.6Wh/mile
16.46miles
1h 9m 4s trip time total.


Now I am going to head out and test the pack for a bit, and do a grocery run and stuff.
 
Test trip went without incident, for almost 7 miles. When I came out of the store, a guy was exuberantly taking phone pics of the bike; he "loves inventions". :) Didnt' ahve time to talk, though; his buddy that was driving was pretty impatient for him to come to the car and leave. :(

Pack behaved as expected, trip data:
29m 49s trip time
6.965miles
20.5mph max
14.0mph avg

29.0Wh/mile
4.011Ah / 4.142
208.38Wh
58.49Amax

56.6Vstart (after having left the bike on from the time I took it off the charger until the time I left, to see if it would burn off all the "surface charge", which it seems to have just about done.
52.8Vrest
46.5Vmin

3.2% Regen
0.1300Ah Regen
-8.27A peak Regen

Cells are closer to equal, within a couple hundredths. Group 1 is still higher by almost a tenth.
 
What your opinion on your V pack vs Volgood?
 
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