Volgood 48V20Ah LiFePO4 Repair by Amberwolf

not true. the shunt transistor only turns on when the voltage is above the 3.65V set point. when the voltage is below that then the leakage is insignificant. as in femto amps.

by turning off the circuit current that drives the output mosfets and the charging FET then the cells in the pack will all leak at the same femto rate.
 
This volgood pack appears to have another runt/dud cell. I'm weighing my options. It would be easier to just sell the pack to somebody who wants to build, tinker etc. Maybe a donation.
 
Sorry about the delay in posting; busy week. :(

I've been PMing with RTLSHIP about the pack, and it definitely has another problem, though exactly what it is isn't clear yet. Best guess currently is a wierd group problem, either several cells that are making an intermittent connection, or a dud cell(s) that is leaking internally, like before, taking down the rest of the group with it.


For background and troubleshooting info, in case others run into similar problems later, here's the discussion so far, chronological order. Non-pack relevant stuff left out, and a couple of messages are edited together into one becuase of corrected info between them:

RTLSHIP said:
Pack stilll works fine, but I have not used it for about 6 weeks.
<snip> I did ride the repaired pack to Walmart about 2 months ago.
maybe 16 miles total and still operational.

RTLSHIP said:
I decided to ride this morning (after reading your email) . After 2 miles the pack (or bike) just cut out. I pulled battery plug from controller. Next I replug it and pack and motor would only go VERY slowly. Once I hit the throttle hard, pack would cut out. It took 1/2 hour to recharge and I just rode it here (local library internet) to tell you.
Now, the problem could be something other than runt cells. It could be controller (unlikely), but it is likely some loose contact somewhere either on the battery pack or a bms issue
I just rode it here to the library (about 2 miles). Riding speed was moderate. Let me know what you think. It doesn't seem to be the same problem as before because it rides well for a few miles.
With the old problem, the bike would not move a foot.

Amberwolf said:
I'm not sure why it would only turn very slowly, unless it was really low in voltage? But then, the BMS ought to cut out again?

You could test if the pack is what cuts out at the BMS, by riding (or running the bike off-ground at home) to cutout again, then measuring with a voltmeter at the pack output to see if it has voltage, without disconnecting the pack from anything. If the pack still has voltage at the output, it's not the BMS/pack, but something past that.


If it only took 30 minutes to recharge, that only puts in what, 2.5Ah? (for a 5A charger) Or 1.5Ah if it's a 3A charger. So it is not fully recharging whichever group(s) is the problem. (assuming they're imbalanced)

I doubt it's actually a "runt" cell, since it did work for the expected capacity before, but it could well be cells that are not balanced with the rest, because they have a slow self-discharge (this is the most recent problem I had with mine). If the pack sat for a long time unused, they would have time to do this.

I would first measure the balance wires on the pack, and see if any groups are out of whack. If they aren't, run the pack down a little, then note the voltages again, if necessary doing it till cutout and measuring again.

But a simple "solution" for this issue if you don't want to mis to stick it on the charger and just leave it on there for a few days (well, actually it could take a couple of weeks or more, at the low balancing currents these BMS have) while it rebalances the pack.

Alternately, if you can see a particular group that is lower than others, you could manually charge it up thru the balance wires for it, if you have a single-cell charger.

Then just make sure the pack is placed back on the charger for a day or so every so often, maybe every couple of weeks, maybe. (depends on how fast the self-discharge is).


My pack's most recent issue was similar in occurence, and I decided to hunt down the cells that were causing the discharge, but the only way to do it has been to literally let it sit for weeks and weeks (months now) while I measure groups and see which ones are self-discharging, then starting the cutting of sections to let individual cells drop in voltage without taking their neighbors with them. I have a sinking suspicion that there are more than a few of them hiding in my pack, but so far only two (in the same group so far) seem to be doing it.

I don't know what causes it, but I suspect it is just the cell manufacturing process itself, some contaminant or damage, but don't know if there is even a way to eventually find out.


RTLSHIP said:
I'm going to leave it on the charger for a long time as you suggested. I actually did top off this pack and my 48/15 pack twice in the past 2 months. Resting voltage is approx 56.7. Hot off the charger is 59.3. After 3 miles riding 52.7.
If I lift the front wheel and go full throttle, it does not cut out. Off course, there is very little amp draw in such a lightweight situation.
Cold is harder on lifepo4. My condo has been down to about 64 degrees. However, I rode my 48/15 to work today. No problem.
Tonight I'll leave it on charger. That seems like a good idea. There could be an imbalance.


RTLSHIP said:
Here's an update: last night I turned bike uoside down and tested battery freeweight style.
At full throttle the pack ran for about 90 seconds then shut off. I left it on charger all night and is still on charger presently. I did notice that the red charging mode came on twice for about 5 seconds each. then it was back to green mode. I'll retest pack freewight tonight.
Incidentally, the other 48/15 pack does not suffer from imbalances despite long nonuse.
Maybe because it probably has pouched cells. it only weighs 14.5 lbs

Amberwolf said:
If it's cutting out after only a minute, I suspect more bad cells. :( Might have to single-cell charge the low group, because it may be overcharging other groups to make up for the low one, depending on how the BMS determines cutoff.

At the least you should measure all the group voltages to see what they are.

RTLSHIP said:
Pack was at 59.9 volts at 5 pm. I removed pack and put it on bike. Nothing. Pack now reads 47.5v
This is exactly the same voltage as it read last summer. There is definitely a problem. Also, the pack will not take a charge. Charger stays on green even though pack is at 47.5.
It dropped from 59.9 to 47.5 in less than 1/2 hour. It wasn't doing this yesterday.
I'm not in the mood for probing the pack with a multi-meter because
there is a chance of arcing (snap, crakle and pop) given my limited skills.


RTLSHIP said:
This morning the pack was at 55.6 v, so I was able to run wheel for over 3 minutes and still working. That's strange because last night the
voltage was at 47.5. There could be a "loose string"
So the pack suddenly works well again. But it is still far from trustworthy. 3 possibilities a) runt cell(s) b) soldering contacts or c)
loose strings?
 
So based on the much lower voltage than it should be (55.6v - 47.5v = 8.1v), and it's rapid dropping down to that voltage after taking off the charger, it probably points to at least three cell groups that are not charging up like they should, since each group in this 16s pack should be 3.475v or so if the pack is at 55.6v.

It's unlikely that all groups are failing to charge fully, so probably at least three are staying pretty far down, because they self-discharged during the time it wasnt' used, so they're far out of balance now--so far that the BMS could take days or longer of charge/discharge to balance the pack.

That is assuming that the self-discharge is slower than the balancing/charging cycles are--if the self-discharge is happening faster, then it will never balance.

The best two tests/fixes to do without disassembling it are measure the group voltages at the balance connector, and then to single-cell/group charge up the low groups to 3.65V. Then stick the whole thing back on the charger and let the BMS balance out all the other groups, if necessary.

After that, do a pack capacity test by running the bike till cutout, and noting down usage if you have a wattmeter (IIRC you don't), or at least noting mileage and comparing it to previous range capabilities. If it's not different then it can continue to be used normally but with the caveat that it needs to be put on it's charger frequently to prevent imbalance.


It is possible also that somethign has failed in the BMS, but it didnt' have any problems with the BMS dragging cells down while it was here, even over multiple weeks of sitting there. So it's less likely that the BMS is causing it than that more cells are simply self-discharging. :(

A simple way to test which is causing it is to first get the pack charged back up correctly and fully, then disconnect the BMS balance leads, which will remove the possiblity that the BMS is discharging things when it shouldn't. If the pack still gets out of balance sitting there for up to the same amount of time it did before, it's the cells. If it doesn't, its the BMS.


But all the troubleshooting I can think of involves testing at cell-group level first.


If you don't want to do it or cant', there should be someone you can meet up with in the area that can help out. You're in south Florida... Sangesf is also in that half of the state; dunno what city. Jay64 is on the eastern middle of the state, in St. Petersburg, as is SilverSurfer. Floont is in Tampa. Bluebottle2 is in the state; dunno where. Drewjet is in Orlando. I know there are others that have posted that they're in Florida, but I can't remember who or where just now. :(


I can work on it again, too, but youd' ahve to ship it here, and back. :( First I really think just checking the balance lead voltages and single-cell-group-charging up the low one(s) would be the best first step, and might be all it needs for now.
 
RTLSHIP said:
This volgood pack appears to have another runt/dud cell. I'm weighing my options. It would be easier to just sell the pack to somebody who wants to build, tinker etc. Maybe a donation.


do you have a voltmeter? put the pack on the charger and measure the voltage of each cell. list them here.

make a dummy load, with lights or a radiant or oil heater, and discharge the pack into the load.

measure the voltages of all the cells during discharge, list them, repeat voltage measurements continuously and keep listing them until you see which one goes down first. write it all down and post up.
 
I feel honored to be the first one you think of amberwolf... ;)

Yeah, RTLSHIP, if ya let me know where in SF you are, maybe we can meetup and work on that battery for you.

Let me know.

After reading that long "PM session" you guys had, it seems to me, that he has a loose connection some where along the line..... If the voltage of the pack fluctuates that much (by 8v or so), then it seems obvious to me that there's some form of wire not making a good connection...

Actually, whatever it is, I'm sure I can figure it out...

Would actually need the battery in front of me and I could test it..
 
Amberwolf and others, thanks for the input. I'll weigh my options. But right now I'm inclined to sell it.
I will cautiously probe with a multimeter this weekend while trying to folow Amberwolfs recent posts and earlier pics onthis thread. After all, this thread was partly created to dissect this pack.
 
why inclined to sell it? it is worth nothing.

if you just take the time to identify which cell is bad, then it could be repaired and you would not have to spend $600 for another pack.

to determine what is wrong, you have to start with the fundamentals:

1, put it on the charger and measure the voltages while charging.

2, create a dummy load and discharge into the load to see which cell has reduced capacity as i said before.

3, examine the weak cell to identify where the capacity loss is and mitigate by repairing that cell.

4, once repaired, return to step 1 and start over until the pack will remained balanced and produce the available capacity.

no pictures needed, just a little time is all it takes.
 
He lives only 15 miles away from me.

I offered to try to fix it and resell and take a little for my time or trade him some bike stuff.

I really don't have the extra cash right now..

He originally spoke about "donating" it..
Selling it in it's current (pun intended) state prolly won't net much.
 
but it sounds like he is broke since he uses the library for the net so if he sells it or donates it he won't have a battery anymore. how can he even afford a ping pack for example. that's why he needs to just repair this one and use it.
 
I'm broke too.. I'm using the internet at Starbucks right now.. Lol

That's why I offered to fix and resell or trade for other e-bike stuff...
If I can "fix" it and make it "relatively stable", I'll be happy to resell it for him or have him resell it.

I have no clue if he has another batt (or batts)..
I would have to make an assessment as to what's exactly wrong and then we can go from there..

Given RTLs reluctance to work on it, it seems as if he needs someone a little bit more versed in pack recovery and since I'm so close, it would probably be the best..

@dnmun Maybe you should buy it from him..

P.S. I don't think that he uses that pack too much anyways.. (Something about it sitting around from 6 weeks to 2 months, from what I saw).
 
PACK UPDATE: I removed the pack from battery bag. Voltage was at 47v. I unplugged and replugged both BMS plus. Noticed that voltage was up to 55. Fired up bike and it ran 4 miles freeweight and then another 4 around neighborhood. Battery bag remains off. I'm thinking now that the BMS plug was off or loose and blocking a balanced recharge. Pack has been recharging since 7 pm.
I don't know what else to say except that this is either a two-faced pack or some loose contact such as the BMS plug. I don't know if cells can fail then work. It's going to take alot more testing before I can confidently say that a loose plug caused this problem. Thanks to All.
 
Pack is at 47/48 v this morning. Should be resting at about 55. It only took 45 minutes to recharge some 8 miles, so something is still wrong with pack.
 
We've worked out that we'll met up in the next week or so, I will then try to fix it for him and if I can, then I'll just charge him a small "fixer" fee.. (I'll start a new thread on it, one caveat though, I would be so "crazy" with the pics as Amberwolf is, as I only have an iPhone and doing a bunch of pix and getting 'em up on here is a real PITA)

If it's a complete cluster fluck, I'll end up trading him some extra ebike stuff I have.
 
that's correct Sangesf, we are either going to make a trade or Sangesf will repair in the near future.
 
We're gonna meet up tomorrow night either by his house or my brother's (who lives near RTL)..
I'll play with it this weekend and see what's, what.
 
And just for fun, I'm gonna bring/ride my "test bed" bike...
It's a 25 mile ride (actually 20m from where I'll drop my son off before I go down to meet RTL) and will be using my setup mentioned in one of my other threads (but using an 11s 7Ah lifepo4 (seried with *) hooked up to a 45.0v 3A charger connected to a 200w inverter connected to a *12v 60Ah TS batt) and see if I can make the trip...
(Don't worry,I have a 36v 12Ah (rear motor) setup as a backup, should I need it).
 
Well...
33.4 miles later...
I end up to meet RTL..
Apparently the 36v rig worked really well as I got to our meeting place and after 1.5 hours the pack was charged
4.5Ah back into batt..
(I had to shut down a few times on the way, so I didn't get a readout of the AH total used..) Anyways, I digress...

Just finished up meeting RTL at Starbucks...
First thing I noticed was the last cell group was at .55v (measured at the balance leads).. It was the only cell group not at 3.5 - 3.65v..
He had charged it a few days earlier and left it..
So there's definitely something wrong with that particular cell group..
(I'll have to check the previous posts and see if it's the "crappy" group..)

Anyways, I have a 33 mile trip back home (need to go pick up my son), so I won't get back home til late..
I prolly won't touch the pack until the weekend at the least, but it's in my hands now, to play "F*CK, F*CK" with.
Will update when I have something to report.
 
Question is when you did your cell notations, was the crap group, the most postitive group or the most negative group?
 
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=446387#p446387
There is only one cell group, number 6 from the most negative end, that is significantly different in voltage, and it reads very dead, at 0.75V.

then later
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=461046#p461046
From most negative to most positive, line breaks indicate ends of balance connectors:
1.928 (this is bad news)
-----
3.400
3.439
3.429
3.421
3.433
3.441
3.431
-----
3.436
-----
3.425
3.413
3.418
3.432
3.344
3.359
-----
3.404
Pack voltage is 52.1.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=462410#p462410
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=464662#p464662
I finally found the bad cell. It's the end "top" cell in the 2nd row of the first group, circled in red: The green circle is the first bad cell I found, same problem and same way.
file.php


http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=469699#p469699

so the second dud cell was at most neg end group.
 
It was nice meeting sangesf. I thought he would bring a car but but rode in from 30 miles away. Then he rode back with the 28 lbs Volgood pack. His "beast" bike has this ability and more.
 
From my initial tests...
(Didn't go crazy as I got home about 12:30 at night.)

1.) Charger puts out max 2.8a

2.) .55v cell group I charged with a 3.0v 700ma charger... Left it on the charger all day... Came back and voltage reads 1.8v, pulled charger off and will check back in 30 min to see voltage.

3.) The BMS is (or may be) a little funky..
Last night I plugged in the charger and it went green in about 10 sec.. Read the voltage via both charge and discharge leads (after pulling the charger off) and they read 48.1v? I read directly from battery and got 56.2v. It's probably the BMS cutting off the charge and or a flaky FET(s), but not sure. Later testing will sort that out.
(Incidentally that's the 8.1v "drop" initially noticed...)

4.) Cell group one was 3.86v, Groups 2-15 were about 3.65-3.75 and last group was .55v

I want to add, that at some point, the BMS may have gone flaky and LVC may not have kicked in (or it's not cell level based and only pack voltage based).. If that's the case and one or more of the groups dropped below 2.5v and then the pack wasn't recharged and left alone, that may be the reason for the .55v cell group.

Later testing (of the BMS) may provide the answers...
 
1.58v on that group so it did better..
Will take a 5.1v .7a charger and leave it plugged in for a few hours and see what transpires...
The wait continues...
 
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