Volgood 48V20Ah LiFePO4 Repair by Amberwolf

They're virtually identical; the actual cell batch appears to be the only physical difference I can identify, beyond the different connectors on each of them, and the fact that the Volgood's negative charging wire goes to the pack negative on the BMS, and the Vpower's goes to the discharge negative.

The only consequence of that is that the Vpower could theoretically cut off charge (or regen) if the voltage went too high, assumign the BMS has an HVC (I don't know), and the Volgood could not.


I think there might be something slightly different in either the BMS or in the cells, regarding reverse current (regen), because there is a different "feel" to regen braking with the Volgood, even at what seems the same voltage. I suspect that the Volgood pack or BMS or connectors are slightly higher resistance, so the voltage drop across it is higher under regen/charging, and so it generates less current for the same voltage across it.

It is a very slight difference, enough that it might even be my imagination (but I don't think so).

It isn't that important, so I will probably not satisfy my curiosity by soldering on my own Anderson MP (SB50) connector to the BMS in addition to your existing output plug, and try each one on the same ride during braking tests. But I considered it. :)

EDIT: Speaking of connectors and resistances, I *did* go ahead and solder the splice on the negative pack wire to the BMS, and heatshrink it, as well as soldering the positive pack wire to the BMS pad for that, because the tape over the unsoldered but zip-tied splies was coming loose (perhaps from the heat here?) and I was afraid of a short at some point. The Vpower has a connector to the pack from the BMS, but the Volgood is wired directly to the BMS. Either works, and actually the direct wiring should be better and lower resistance (and less failure prone).

I expect that capacity-wise theyr'e different, due to different ages and different cell batches and cell conditions, but I don't yet know which is "better", until capacity-in-use tests are complete.

Other than that, they're close enough to the same that I couldn't pick them out of a lineup. ;)
 
No ride today yet, but just sitting there overnight, the pack voltage has not dropped (is 52.9V right now), so there are probably not any other really bad leaky cells like the two I've disconnected.
 
Ride data from today's work commute, cumulative from previous:

49m 29s trip time
11.67miles
22.1mph max
14.1mph avg

29.2Wh/mile
6.813Ah (7.0175AH)
350.34Wh
58.99Amax

Vstart
52.7Vrest
32.9Vmin**

2.9% Regen
0.2030Ah Regen
-8.68A peak Regen


The Vmin is now invalid, because it shows that for the testing of another pack I plugged in to the CA for a quick check, and there's no way to clear just that value without clearing all the other CA data, AFAIK.

So far behaving itself nicely.
 
Finally cut out today, at just past 20 miles (pretty much the same as my own Vpower pack).

I was *almost* home, but just far enough that I had to unplug this pack and plug in my own to finish the trip--I couldn't have pedalled even that short distance, maybe 1/8 mile, because in additon to the 50lbs of traction battery (each Vpower/Volgood pack is about 25lbs or so), I had a 35lb bag of dog food, and at least 15lbs of other stuff, as cargo.

Final data:
1h 27m 13s trip time
20.79miles
22.1mph max
14.3mph avg

29.5Wh/mile
12.36Ah (12.7)
625.94Wh
62.9Amax

52.7Vstart
48.9Vrest
(invalid) Vmin

2.7% Regen
0.333Ah Regen
-8.68A peak Regen

Artificially testing Vmin after I got home, by holding the brake and hitting the throttle in bursts to full, I get 42.8V wihtout cutting out by LVC.

Cell voltages within a few minutes of that:
2.57*
-----
2.90
3.19
3.19
3.11
3.19
3.17
3.02
-----
3.13
-----
3.04
2.82*
3.11
3.07
3.00
3.17
-----
3.19


The two groups with removed bad cells are marked with *; the most negative one at the top of the list took about 12Ah to recharge before, and that's just about what the pack is capable of putting out. So that group may still have other weak cells, and I'm sure the other group with teh removed cell does too. (plus it's a little bit harder on each of the remaining cells compared to other groups that aren't missing any cells).

There's also three groups with a bit lower than usual: 2.90 and 3.00V and 3.02V, they may have weak cells in them, too. (probably there are weak cells in all groups, just those specific ones are worse).

So if I can find at least two new (or used but good) cells to replace the ones removed, it would probably improve the total capacity of the pack at least a little bit. Don't know how much, but some.

But overall, this pack is working at least as well as my own Vpower pack.

Right now the pack is off the bike, recharging overnight, at 2.53A with it's supplied charger. I ahve the TWM2 monitoring it's charge, so I can see how much goes back in.
 
Recharged with a total of 13.951Ah, 752.9Wh, 59.57V with charger still hooked up. I didn't have time to write down those numbers this morning before work, but i did note the current at the time was stil about 50mA (it's now flickering from 20-30mA).

It's now disconnected from the charger, and I'll recheck it in a while after it's had time to settle.
 
20 miles on your bike means alot more rannge on other bikes . Your tires are smaller than my 26". Your bike weighs over 100 to 150. Mine weighs 70 with the pack. Of course, deliberately hard and fast riding would lead to a quicker cut-out. So this pack is only good for 13.9 ah?
 
The 13.9Ah was the recharge total, which will include some balancing; the ride data was only 12.36Ah, and that should be typical, when ridden hard. It probably gives more when used more gently, but I don't know by how much.

What is the typical current you pull from it during a ride? Knowing that, I could set up a static discharge test, where it just sits on the bench and discharges thru a wattmeter constantly into a load until the BMS cuts out. I'd just have to build a suitable load for it (probably from lightbulbs and/or stove elements).


Replacing the two missing cells would help a little, but probably not a lot, maybe another Ah at most, maybe not even that much. I cant' really even guess very well.
 
Myself, if I were to buy any premade LiFePO4 pack, it'd be a Ping. All packs can have failures, but the construction of a pouch pack seems to be sturdier and less prone to connection failures than cylindrical. Plus Ping actually seems to do a good job with customer service, compared to any of the other pack vendors I've read of so far.

I don't think I'd buy Volgood, CammyCC, or Vpower, or any of the others similarly constructed. (even though I am about to try to build my own cylindrical-cell pack from laptop-type cells).

Ping is also the only one that actually answered most of my questions about a custom split pack back when i was starting my ebike projects and was looking for soemthing better than lead. Nobody else answered more than one or two questions and those only partially, sometimes with conflicting information between the question/answers. Some didnt' reply at all, or replied with no answers, just a link to a battery fpr sale on ebay that didn't have anything to do with what I asked about.

The main weak point of them seems to be the BMS, but there dont' seem to be many good ones out there. I can see why people who've learned enough about batteries tend to recommend not using one, and doing bulk charging with occasional single-cell/group-level charging/balancing rather than a "Battery Murdering System" as someone so eloquently put it. ;)
 
I don't know what the totall amp draw is when riding but my distances are usually under 6 miles. Rarely, I take a 15 to 20 mile trip. A ride to work is 4.5 miles and pack is immediately recharged on site. I figure a work ride to be 3 amps
 
THen most likely this pack is now fine for your usage, even without replacing the 2 dud cells.

I've got it just sitting off the charger after a full recharge right now, last few days, just to see if the voltage drops on any particular groups like it did on that last one. So far it still looks fine.
 
the way I determine amp draw is by timing battery recharge. If it's a 2amp 36v it takes maybe 1.5hrs to reharge. that's maybe 3 amps total. far from an exact science, however. But assuming moderate to hard riding, it seems accurate at both 36v and 48v.
 
After final testing of letting it sit for a bit more than two weeks with the BMS on it, after a full charge and then disconnecting the charger, it is ready to go.

For final reassembly, I removed the test-wire between the two halves (installed to make it possible to put each half of the pack down into my battery box separately, and take them out, required due to box/seat interference), reconnected the pack halves with new strips, then securely wrapped it all up in duct tape again after carefully positioning the insulation sheets between the halves.
View attachment 3

Ran it on the bike for a quick test (sitting padded in the rightside cargo pod since it won't go in the battery box this way), ending at 55.0V rest, each cell at about 3.44V, with a variation of about 0.05 between some of them. .
DSC05112.JPG


I forgot to note that I made one change to the pack wiring to BMS, for pack's protection during charging: I moved the brown negative charging wire from the battery negative to the output negative (P- on the corner), so that the BMS can shut charging off if it goes too high (it couldn't have done that the way it was wired before). If desired, it can be moved back, but I recommend leaving it like this so the BMS can shutoff charging if necessary. It's how mine is used (since I charge and discharge from the same connector), so I know it works fine this way.
DSC05113.JPG

instead of to here
DSC05114.JPG




Boxed it up the same way it was shipped (referring to my pics of unpacking it, since I knew I wouldn't remember :)), except that I had to use tape and paper to replace the clear wrap securing cords down, as the wrap wouldn't stick again for some reason.


It's now on it's way back to RTLSHIP, hopefully for many more useful cycles. :)


As an aside, about shipping: I ended up sending it Fedex, which is usually the more expensive option that I don't normally use.

Would've used UPS because it showed $10 cheaper than Fedex when I tried to make the online label at home, but I could not get my printer to work, so I went to a UPS shipping center instead, and theirs comes up $4 MORE than Fedex ($14 more than their site says it would be when I did it at home). :shock: :?

They redid it onscreen to be sure, and it does indeed come up that way when all the same options are picked that I did here.

I guess UPS gives a big discount if I print the label at home or something, which seems ridiculous, since it's done exactly the same way for the MailBox place I went to as it is at home. Plus, they don't have to drive out to me to pick it up, they get a whole bunch of packages picked up at once. So UPS lost my business on this one. Not like they care, but still...and it still bothers me. :(

When I got home I rechecked, starting the process from scratch, and it still comes up the same way it did for me the first time. Oh, well.
 
I rode 10 miles after work without problems. Could have gone farther. I sent $10. more to cover unanticapted extra ship costs. Also previously sent funds for costs etc.
Thanks alot Amberwolf. Hopefully pack endures. :D
 
Job well done, I like how you improved the BMS.

Regarding shipping USP,S the post office, offers flat rate priority mail. If it fit in the box, it ships for 14.95. That is the large box. I sent my Ping out for parts to the west coast and it cost 15 versus $35
 
RTLSHIP, you're welcome, and thank you, too! I'm sure the pack will endure for some time, but unfortunatley we've both found that failures do continue over time with these. :(

@Ianmcnally: the falt rate boxes might have just barely held the pack, but not with sufficient packing to be safe; I preferred to send it back in the same box, packed exactly the same way that it came to me (because it was packed very well).
 
Hey amberwolf...

If I sent you a 36v "20" ah battery with a crappy cell group (and a BMS that works) and a 11s "10ah" battery... (both with the 18650 cells)
Could you take them apart and make a good 36v whatever Ah (hopefully 20) with the BMS and a 12v whatever AH battery (hopefully 20 too) without a BMS and you can have whatever "crappy cells" there are left over and some money for your time and shipping?

What do you think? You can also make another thread of the process.. ;)

How much you think you would charge, etc..

Thanks

Frank
 
I can certainly try, as long as you are not in a hurry for it. I'm not fast, and life happens a lot to me at all the wrong times. It is possible it could take weeks to months, depending on the work needed and the "spare" time I have to work on it.

The only real problem I foresee is having enough good cells to make them sufficient capacity, depending on what is wrong with the packs. Also, that if the 36V pack was originally rated "20Ah", did it actually ever deliver that? If not, then probably the best I can make it do is something close to what it originally delivered (perhaps 3/4 to 4/5 of that, based on my experience with this Volgood pack and my own Vpower/CammyCC pack). Same goes for the 10Ah pack.

I assume these are duct-taped packs; that's the only thing I have here I can re-wrap them in when done. (I could order heatshrink, but no idea on cost.)

I would recommend sending the charger with it that you intend to use, so I can make sure it all works together and properly charges once complete. Also note down for me what power levels it'll be used at, meaning if you pull a max of 20A from it, and an average of 5A, or whatever, then just note it down so I'll know what to be sure to test it at.

As for how much I'd charge, well, I'll take whatever I can get. :) So I guess whatever it is worth to you to have done, plus whatever postage costs to send it back to you.
 
I'm testing the 36v 20ah pack now...
Trying to see what the LVC kicks in at, on the pack and the ONE cell group in there that's acting "funky"... (I discharge at 30a max, avg of 9-11a)

The 11s (re: "33v") pack runs 10ah exactly when the cell groups hit 2.9v each.. (16a max draw, average of 7a)
(Amazingly After I pulled pack apart and "reconfigured it", this pack has not had a BMS hooked up to it in over 3 months and after every 10ah I read 2.9xV per cell group and after charging to 40.1v (2a) every cell group is at 3.6xV - a couple of months ago, I even "miss charged" to 42.8v and all the cells groups were at 3.8xV with no detrimental effects.. {i.e. They still charge and dischrge evenly})
 
Rode 15 miles on the Volgood yesterday. 58 minutes ride time. No power failures. Moderate to hard riding.
 
Pack is currently not working well. I emailed Amberwolf and he advised to leave it on charger to balance the cells as I have not used this pack for 6 weeks or so and it could have overly self-discharged and imbalanced.
 
the BMS circuit current will drain the first 3 or 4 cells and leave the others full when you leave the pack idle for long periods.

this is a real problem for many people, so we should start a thread of how to put a switch in the BMS circuit current so the pack doesn't get unbalanced while idle.

i have already identified the spot for a switch on the v1 and v2.5 signalabs, maybe i should go look at the other BMSs i have laying around.
 
Depending upon the BMS design, just killing power to the BMS controller may not help a whole lot. A lot of BMS's significantly drain all the cells through the balance leads. Their idle current drain can be enough to kill the cells after just a few weeks.
 
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