57' Triumph TRW

bnchrch

100 µW
Joined
Feb 20, 2024
Messages
8
Location
Courtenay, BC
Hey all,

Ive been lurking here for a bit and wanted to kick off a thread around a build I'm considering using a 1957 TRW I inherited.

As you can see its in a bit of a state of disrepair and instead of spending a decade trying to restore it I'm thinking a more fun option would be to do an electric conversion.

So a couple questions to all of you here

  1. Is it a sin to convert this era of bike? It's certainly a classic.
  2. It seems like the main trade off(s) between hub and mid drive is that hubs lack the ability to tune the gearing and lead to an awkward weight distribution. At the same time they make more room for a battery. Is that correct?
  3. I see a lot of people here building their own batteries. If I wanted to avoid that, is there even a suitable manufactured battery pack on market for an electric motorcycle?
  4. If I did build my own battery, how can I best avoid catastrophe? (fire/electrocution)
Anyway I'm new to this but just want to say thanks in advance to anyone who wants to offer their input!

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1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Yes.
4) By being careful, having a non flammable build area, and being ready to deal with flaming cells.

If you are going to spot weld up a battery pack you'll need a decent welder. I burnt up a couple of cheap ones before I finally bought a Kweld. It works great.

Good luck on your build. It could be a classic emoto.
 
Is it a sin to convert this era of bike? It's certainly a classic.
Why? As OP states, it's been sitting around mostly unused for a couple of decades and could take quite some time getting it fully restored as original, if ever. If OP wants to get a classic vehicle moving again, why not? What's the bigger sin, sitting on it because you don't want the work of making it like the original IC, or converting it to electric? I say go for it.
 
Why? As OP states, it's been sitting around mostly unused for a couple of decades and could take quite some time getting it fully restored as original, if ever. If OP wants to get a classic vehicle moving again, why not? What's the bigger sin, sitting on it because you don't want the work of making it like the original IC, or converting it to electric? I say go for it.
I think @gromike was more or less saying "its a sin, but a rad sin that you should totally do."

Given how he ended it
Good luck on your build. It could be a classic emoto.


Either way thanks for the support from both of you.

Ive had an idea of having a primary battery pack in the frame, and an auxiliary battery pack mounted where the saddlebags would go.

Anyone try that and/or know the pitfalls?
 
I think @gromike was more or less saying "its a sin, but a rad sin that you should totally do."

Given how he ended it

Fair point. I just reflexively balk at people who say that modifying or not modifying "classics" is a sin. If it works for you, you should do it.
Either way thanks for the support from both of you.

Ive had an idea of having a primary battery pack in the frame, and an auxiliary battery pack mounted where the saddlebags would go.

Anyone try that and/or know the pitfalls?
If you feel like you might need two batteries, just make one big battery, as big as the frame will allow. Less complicated that way.
 
Your Bike, follow your dream.. but i will admit to a sharp intake of breath at first sight of your pics.. but being a Brit, Triumph s do hold a special reverence ;)

As im in a similar state of quandry with my own 'project bike' not quite the same vintage however, I will just follow with interest and wish you well in the project which ever way you go. ;)
 
Hey all,

Im beginning to spec out an electric motorcycle conversion.

And while there are a lot of recommendations to use the grin simulator from ebikes.com it doesn't seem like theres a lot of guidance on how to create a custom motor setup.

I wanted to ask if anyone here has ever set up the grin simulator with one of the QS mid drive motors?
 
Just going to start writing where I'm at in case anyone wants to short circuit me and offer advice.

Currently I'm speccing everything out.

My goal is to comfortably traverse my community, which is made up by about 3 towns. The furthest being about 15km from my house, with highways connecting topping out at 80km/h.

So my goals so far are to have a 60km range (there and back twice to have spare capacity and to handle the two hills in the way)

The dry weight of the bike is about 320lbs (with the IC motor) and I weigh about 180lbs

Meaning I should look at a 8kw+ mid drive to achieve 80km/h sustained. (or can I get away with a 6kw?)

now where I'm stumped/figuring out is.

  1. How can I spec out the battery requirements?
  2. How can I translate battery requirements to weight and size?
  3. How can I determine the best chemistry for a battery?
  4. How the hell can I get a QS motor as a custom motor in the grin simulator?
 
Only post with details I recall is htis one
 
You can use the simulator without the specifics on the motor, just using something powerful in there like the Cromotor, to get guesstimates on power usage for your specific riding conditions, acceleration needs, etc.

Those guesstimates will include wh/km that you can translate to wh capacity of a battery, which will help you guesstimate battery size for range needed.

If you need to simulate the specific motor, I replied to your thread about that with the only info I could find. Since you are asking the same question here in this thread, I recommend letting me move that thread to this one to keep it all in one place.
 
  1. Is it a sin to convert this era of bike? It's certainly a classic.
I'm not familiar with this particular bike so maybe, if this one is rare or has some particular historical value.
In any case, it might be a good idea to try and make the mods reversible while keeping all the ICE stuff in a box somewhere. This way in the future if someone wants to revert it to its original state it will still be possible with minimal effort. It can also help you retain part of the bike's value in case it suddently becomes an expensive collectible, you never know.

  1. It seems like the main trade off(s) between hub and mid drive is that hubs lack the ability to tune the gearing and lead to an awkward weight distribution. At the same time they make more room for a battery. Is that correct?
Tuning the gearing rarely makes any sense, this is usually some annoying stuff you have to deal with when using an onboard motor. Hub motors provide way enough torque to get going. So basically the first point isn't a real point.
Weight distribution isn't optimal in theory, but it doesn't cause any real life deal breaking problem unless maybe you plan to do races on a circuit, or maybe if you have some absolutely terrible roads with potholes everywhere. For city riding a hub motor is perfectly fine. People tend to overthink this issue, it's not actually that important.
One issue that can arise with hubs is that it's harder to change tires since usually they don't fit in the tire changing machines, so you kinda have to do it manually. It's not exactly easy to do, but after some practice it does get easier.

Also it makes the build a whole lot easier in every aspect, it is likely to be cheaper overall, take less time to build, make overall maintenance easier and leave you with a lot more options for battery size and/or chemistry.
I would clearly go towards a hub if this was my build, this bike seem very adapted for it.
  1. I see a lot of people here building their own batteries. If I wanted to avoid that, is there even a suitable manufactured battery pack on market for an electric motorcycle?
Not that I'm aware of. I suggest using automotive grade cells if possible.

  1. If I did build my own battery, how can I best avoid catastrophe? (fire/electrocution)
I think the best way to avoid problems is knowledge and experience. Also, having all the necessary tooling.
First, watch/read as many battery build material as you possibly can, so you'll understand the theory, the risks, the tools needed, etc.
Then maybe try with a smaller battery build. Perhaps you can build a small auxiliary batery that could handle all the 12V stuff. This way you work on relatively safe voltages, you learn to get comfortable without too much risk or cost.
It's not very difficult but there is a learning curve to it.

  1. How can I spec out the battery requirements?
It all depends on the power you want to have, the desired range and the system voltage (usually determined by the voltage of the controller you plan on purchasing)
For example, you want to have an output power of 10KW, and you have settled on a 84V controller.
Then, since 10KW/84V = 119, you need your battery to be able to deliver peak currents up to 119Amps. You always want your battery to be the most powerful component of your build, so I suggest in this case to make the battery capable of delivering at least 150Amps. This way the cells will be less stressed and should last a lot longer.

These kind of currents can be achieved in two ways: either by having a large capacity pack, or by having a pack capable of high current discharge, meaning it's able to throw a lot of energy during a short time.
Here, capacity is expressed in Ah, and discharge rate is expressed in C.
Lets take two examples:

-You have a battery with a capacity of 150Ah, and a peak discharge rate of 1C : The battery can provide an instant current of 1C x 150Ah = 150A. The battery will be huge and heavy and you will have about 150km of autonomy (very rough estimate, but that's the idea)
-You have a battery with a capacity of 10Ah, and a peak discharge rate of 15C: The battery will be able to provide an instant current of 15C x 10Ah = 150A as well. Meaning that if you were to put both configurations on a dyno they would output the same power. But here the battery will be very small and lightweight and your autonomy should be around 10km. So the bike could be much lighter, which means better acceleration at the expense of autonomy.

So it all depends on the range you need, the current you need and the space/weight constraints.
Some battery chemistries allow for high discharge rates, some other allow for more capacity, there is no perfect battery that fits every application so it completeley depends on your objectives.


  1. How can I translate battery requirements to weight and size?
First, determine your system voltage and required capacity according to what I described above
Then decide on what chemistry suits your needs.
Then it will depend on what cells are available, their form factor, and the way you can organize them so they fit in your frame.

  1. How can I determine the best chemistry for a battery?
I'd say it depends on the following:
-Desired discharge rate and/or charge rate (if you often need to charge very quickly that might be important to you)
-Desired safety factor. Some lithium cells can litterally still work after being shot by a shotgun. Some other will catch fire at the slightest puncture or when too hot/overcharged/overdischarged.
-Desired lifetime. Some cells can last thousands of cycles and many years, some others will only last a few hundreds of cycles.
-Weight, volume and price, obviously.

It's always a compromize between these factors, you'll have to decide what matters most to you and choose accordingly


  1. How the hell can I get a QS motor as a custom motor in the grin simulator?

No Idea.

Hopefully that helps,
 
You can use the simulator without the specifics on the motor, just using something powerful in there like the Cromotor, to get guesstimates on power usage for your specific riding conditions, acceleration needs, etc.

Those guesstimates will include wh/km that you can translate to wh capacity of a battery, which will help you guesstimate battery size for range needed.

If you need to simulate the specific motor, I replied to your thread about that with the only info I could find. Since you are asking the same question here in this thread, I recommend letting me move that thread to this one to keep it all in one place.
Hey @amberwolf, thanks for both replies, please feel free to merge them and sorry if I made a forum faux pas breaking that question out
 
@Dui ni shuo de dui thanks heaps for the detailed reply.

You have me re-evaluating hub motors for this build. My initial worry when looking at this was a lot of build threads talked about modifiy / reenforcing the swing arm and my brain thought perhaps by using a high powered hub motor I was introducing stress in an area the frame was not built to handle.

Did I understand that right? or were people more or less modifiying the swing arm to just fit the wheel in since theyre bigger?
 
As long as there is space on the axle/swingarm to install torque plates to clamp / pinch the hubmotor axle securely, to keep ti from moving in any direction, and a way to secure the torque plates to the swingarm itself, it doesn't require modifying the swingarm or stressing it.

There's a Torque Arm Picture Thread around here that has a lot of images of various types, including some suited for motorcycle designs (might need scaling up).

If the tire diameter, or axle width, is larger than your original, you may have to modify things to fit that...but if your torque plates can be extended back past the end of the swingarm, they can be made wider than the arm and gives space for larger diameter tires. In this event the rear disc caliper mount can be added to the torque plate so it keeps it in the right place relative to the rotor.

If the tire width is greater than your arm's space, then you're stuck with a narrower tire or a different or modified arm.
 
@Dui ni shuo de dui My initial worry when looking at this was a lot of build threads talked about modifiy / reenforcing the swing arm and my brain thought perhaps by using a high powered hub motor I was introducing stress in an area the frame was not built to handle.
I wouldn't worry too much about that, just look at how crappy my frames were on my bikes, yet they survived pretty well so far.
It's always a good idea to reinforce it if you can, but if you're not intenting to go for insane amounts of power then it's probably fine.

Someone posted an answer right after me yesterday, but I think he deleted it since I can't see it anymore.
He mentionned you should use a 3KW motor and a 5KWh capacity battery.

I do agree with him, it is a valid setup that would work fine given the requirements you posted. My experience is that I was able to reach 120km/h with my 3KW motor, so that's well over the required 80, and a 5KWh battery is more than enough to do 60km at high speeds (and way more at lower speeds).
I'd only recommend to get a higher power motor in case there are long hills or steep inclines, since a higher power motor will typically heat less in these situations. A higher power motor will be more expensive and heavier though, so there's always compromizes.

Depending on what controller you use that can be already pretty scary fast.

Also, if you want to lower the stress to both the swingarm and the battery, I suggest not using regen. Regen puts a lot of stress on the axle of the motor in both direction, which makes the use of a torque plate pretty much mandatory.

Did I understand that right? or were people more or less modifiying the swing arm to just fit the wheel in since theyre bigger?
I can't say for sure why and how people modify their swingarm, I suppose it's different from one build to another.

In your case I just realized that there doesn't seem to be an actual swingarm? It looks like it is a rigid frame and only the springs under the saddle to protect your butt?

I think it's a good candidate for a hub motor, but just don't go too crazy on the power, keep it a nice, peaceful cruising machine. You can't afford too much power with those brakes anyway.

If this was my build I'd probably try to go for the following configuration:
-3KW or 6KW motor, depending on terrain (as explained above)
-150 to 200 battery amps controller / 350-400 phase amps --> Not extremely powerful but already much better than the original petrol engine for sure. Get a programmable unit so you can dial down the power if this turns out to be too much.
-72V 50Ah or 60Ah battery pack using LiFe chemistry --> Can tolerate high discharge rates, very safe, and can last for a very long time. They are heavier and bigger than other chemistries but you have enough space for it.
 
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@Dui ni shuo de dui you are a legend, thanks for all the detail here, you seriously rock.

So looking at my route it seems like Ive got a good (but not crazy) elevation change both ways (207 m). This has me thinking the a 6kw hub should be what I aim for.

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Now looking at battery chemistry. I will definately look into LiFe. However on marketplace I just saw a listing for some LiPo4 cells locally and was wondering if they were worth looking into

1710523003785.png
 
Also I'm looking at QS Hub motors.

  1. This seems like the most recommended brand. Is that right?
  2. If so where is the best place to order from them? Theres seems to be a fair amount of imposter sites.
  3. How hard is it to add spokes + rims to these motors? am I better off ordering it spoked?
 
Also I'm looking at QS Hub motors.

  1. This seems like the most recommended brand. Is that right?
  2. If so where is the best place to order from them? Theres seems to be a fair amount of imposter sites.
  3. How hard is it to add spokes + rims to these motors? am I better off ordering it spoked?
Qs motors are on the. for sale new. section of this site
 
Now looking at battery chemistry. I will definately look into LiFe. However on marketplace I just saw a listing for some LiPo4 cells locally and was wondering if they were worth looking into

View attachment 349212
200Ah is too much capacity for your needs, the battery will end up being extremely heavy.
Also, this type of cell isn't really automotive grade, it looks like stuff intended for stationnary use, like battery banks for solar, stuff like that.
Better get real automotive cells, because they are tested in very harsh environments and pretty much guaranteed to be strong and reliable. Car manufacturers can't afford their cars to last only a few months.

  1. This seems like the most recommended brand. Is that right?
Yes, their motors are good and reliable, especially considering the price.
  1. If so where is the best place to order from them? Theres seems to be a fair amount of imposter sites.
I can't really help on this question, sorry
  1. How hard is it to add spokes + rims to these motors? am I better off ordering it spoked?
Not especially more difficult than a regular spoked rim, it's the same principle.
That being said, it's important to note that the spoked versions of the hub motors can tolerate less power than the solid rims ones, because they have less material to evacuate the heat.

I agree that you don't have much alternatives than using a spoked version here, otherwise it might look a bit weird.
Ordering it already spoked is probably wiser if its your first time, you can always change the rim later if you're not happy with it.
 
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