Bafang BBSHD, 1000W, 68mm-120mm BB

[Voltron]

Well, compared to the original put a set of aero bars on a regular frame days, the modern TT bikes have the rider position tilted way more forward, with the hips more over the pedals and shoulders over the armrests, and depending on your body shape is actually pretty comfortable. I never had my hands and wrists feel as good after a hour+ ride, and was peaking at 35 on the flats...its so gratifying to feel all the output from the pedaling going into motion and not drag that it inspires you to pedal harder then you ever have...
But thats exactly when it would be a waste to add 1500 watts, you could do it, the modern frames have evolved so much room inside the frame that they come with a big space for a water bladder that would hold a battery and a controller, and a rear disc to hide the motor, but unless you're on a groomed track with no need to stop quickly, and no traffic or pebbles or anything really in the way, going 45 with no suspension and 18mm wide tires is probably a bad idea.

 

[gman1971]

Well, compared to the original put a set of aero bars on a regular frame days, the modern TT bikes have the rider position tilted way more forward, with the hips more over the pedals and shoulders over the armrests, and depending on your body shape is actually pretty comfortable. I never had my hands and wrists feel as good after a hour+ ride, and was peaking at 35 on the flats...its so gratifying to feel all the output from the pedaling going into motion and not drag that it inspires you to pedal harder then you ever have...
But thats exactly when it would be a waste to add 1500 watts, you could do it, the modern frames have evolved so much room inside the frame that they come with a big space for a water bladder that would hold a battery and a controller, and a rear disc to hide the motor, but unless you're on a groomed track with no need to stop quickly, and no traffic or pebbles or anything really in the way, going 45 with no suspension and 18mm wide tires is probably a bad idea.

Comfort... well, that's until you try a tadpole trike... then there is no comparison in comfort...

G.

 

[Voltron]

That shows why theres so many different bikes. I like crouching tigerlike on the balls of my feet, barely sitting on the saddle and pedaling furiously for an hour... so when I went for some tadpole rides with with friends I felt like I was missing 85% of what I like about pedaling hard, and the no leaning g forces with my neck bent what seems like the wrong way after so many years the other way made me sore! lol

 

[speedmd]

They (Trikes) also suck at climbing over big hills. Nothing like getting out of the saddle a bit to help crank over the steep stuff when you start getting tired.

No need to go full TT bike to get most of their benefit. Just a good center bar, low position and some tight fitting clothing with get you most of the way there. Something the power of the HD on a well setup road bike /rider should be able to approach 60mph with the right gearing. Certainly would be hazardous riding.

 

[gman1971]

That shows why theres so many different bikes. I like crouching tigerlike on the balls of my feet, barely sitting on the saddle and pedaling furiously for an hour... so when I went for some tadpole rides with with friends I felt like I was missing 85% of what I like about pedaling hard, and the no leaning g forces with my neck bent what seems like the wrong way after so many years the other way made me sore! lol

Well, trust me, I know, I've ridden upright bikes for nearly 35 years now, but what I found was that the trike offered a lot of excitement as well... and loads of lateral acceleration going on too, go-kart someone?, but you need to go fast to experience that. Unfortunately, on a trike its easy to lay back and relax while riding; and coming from the DF bikes I noticed my speed has gone down quite a bit, and my legs are on fire when trying to push it so you'll definitively exercise a different set of muscles for sure. However, all that gets forgotten the moment you get to that top of the hill and the downhill begins... after a handful of seconds you're going down at 40+ mph, all without pedaling the dang thing: that is pure adrenaline rush... no regular upright bike is going to deliver a 40 mph experience on a short downhill without the user pedaling furiously (as you describe). Taking tight turns at 40mph on a trike requires a lot of skill, much so like taking 40mph tight turns on a bike... most trikers don't have going all out fast as their priority, I can see that...

I climb seated on my uprights, and been doing that since I am old enough to ride on the roads; and I've climbed some steep mountain ports in Spain during my early years in Spain. All seated, and I rarely, if ever, stand up. So climbing on trikes for me is no different than it was on my uprights.

Once I finish bolting the 4.5 kW motor on mine and run 60 mph it will become the eternal downhill; plus a trike will be able to ride 400 miles without the rider having that urgent desire of getting off the trike whereas riding 400 miles on a DF bicycle you better have an ass of steel, wrist of rubber and the back of a lumberjack, b/c otherwise you'll be sore as heck after that 400 mile ride.

G.

 

[gman1971]

They (Trikes) also suck at climbing over big hills. Nothing like getting out of the saddle a bit to help crank over the steep stuff when you start getting tired.

No need to go full TT bike to get most of their benefit. Just a good center bar, low position and some tight fitting clothing with get you most of the way there. Something the power of the HD on a well setup road bike /rider should be able to approach 60mph with the right gearing. Certainly would be hazardous riding.

Trikes don't suck at climbing hills, RIDERS SUCK at climbing hills on a trike... don't blame the machine, blame the rider. I believe most (if not all) speed records on bikes are held by ... recumbent bikes... heck they are banned from UCI... If a guy was to train as hard as say Miguel Indurain on a recumbent bikes will own everyone on the TdF... he will be able to go insanely faster on the downhills while keeping just fine on the uphills... and weight?... a CF recumbent will be just as a light as a regular DF bike...so no the weight difference is moot. Standing on the bike engages a different set of muscles, but what I found out is that I can fire my quads on the trike more by slightly changing my posture or engage my posterior chain (glutes,hams) all based upon minor posture changes. So you know you're not stuck when sitting down. Plus you can apply a HECK of a lot more force on a recumbent, I can leg press almost 600lbs, but can you apply 600 lbs of force while standing on the bike? not really. Again, its all practice, and we've all grown up with DF bikes so we are all accustomed to DF bikes.. not saying DF is crap and trikes are good, but they do have their place and claiming they are slower is false. The riders who own trikes are not interested in speed or all out performance... so of course they don't care if they climb that 20% hill at 2 mph, whereas OTOH, the df lycra rider is out to eat hills at max speed, so its obvious who is going to be faster, the guy who is all day long all-out performance training vs. the guy who is just going for a Sunday ride on his/her trike. Now, with that said, a very steep hill might be real easy to climb on the trike, slow, but since you can climb at any speed no problem, whereas on an upright anyhing below 2 mph you are walking.

And once you motorize, I am sorry, but trikes are a lot more practical than bikes...

G.

 

[Voltron]

This is starting to stray off topic, and you could argue the stability or comfort issue, but I don't see a trike winning in practicality. Hard to split lanes in dense urban traffic, harder to stick on a bus rack or carry up some stairs, can't wear a back pack for errands, not built for dual use like a mountain bike you could off road and then switch to street tires, etc. Tough to see a trike beating a road bike in weight too, even in carbon. The extra wheel, the bigger seat, the extra beefiness it has to have to handle the lateral loads all spells heavier. A light road bike is 12 or 13 pounds these days...

 

[speedmd]

How does one bunny hop over obstacles on a trike. Go up curbs, steps or get over logs. Completely lacks freedom to effectively deal with significant vertical challenges. Don't get me wrong, I love the speed and inherent aero benefits of the low slung recumbent setup for motoring at speed. Agree, for straight out pedaling, it is a great setup.

 

[WoodlandHills]

I'd rather be knocked off of a DF by a car than run over by their tires in a trike...... Morbid, but it's what comes to mind whenever I see a trike on the road.

 

[Lurkin]

I'd rather be knocked off of a DF by a car than run over by their tires in a trike...... Morbid, but it's what comes to mind whenever I see a trike on the road.

Zing. Thats it on the money. Its bad enough on a bike in Melbourne, it would take a pretty brave soul to ride a trike of any type on the road here.

 

[Chalo]

'Bents are less efficient than normal bikes, unless you only consider aerodynamics. Trikes are WAY less efficient than normal bikes. 'Bents only prevail on long straight flat high speed runs. There they are unbeatable, when aerodynamics are the only determining factor.

I challenge anybody to find an uphill OR a downhill speed record held by a 'bent. Uphills require the effective muscle power that only a normal bike allows. Recumbents suck at that, not only because they're heavy, but because they handicap the rider's ability to make power. Trikes are even heavier, and the tires can fight with each other and waste energy whenever you're not going in a straight line.

Downhills require positive control and confidence-inspiring handling. Recumbents suck at that too; so do trikes. That's why the downhill speed records are on upright bikes, even though they're inherently less aerodynamically efficient.

The moral of the story is that motor power helps offset the shortcomings of a recumbent or a trike, but it doesn't make those shortcomings go away. Those shortcomings are a predictable result of the machine being designed for the rider to sit down, while a normal bike is designed for the rider to be able to use his muscle power most effectively. Normal bikes make the most of whatever power you have available, unless all you're trying to do is beat your way through the wind in a straight line on the flat.

Streamlined 'bents are the champions at crashing from poor handling when they're not even trying to turn.
[youtube]i5Dapy1xUq0[/youtube]

 

[gman1971]

All valid points, but lets get back on track, bents vs. uprights doesn't belong to in the Bafang HD thread... Sorry for the derailing...

 

[Alan B]

Aerodynamics is significant on a bike over about 10 mph, the BBSHD's performance is limited more by air resistance than anything else on most bikes. Putting a BBSHD on a recumbent will make a significant improvement in aero limited activities such as downhill or level top speed over running one on a hybrid or mountain bike.

The recumbents generally hold the records for contests they're allowed to compete in, at least for level and downhill races where speeds are high enough for aero to be important, like over 15 mph. Recumbents were banned many years ago from racing to protect manufacturer's interests in the racing sports, so their development for racing was stunted and has never really recovered.

We compared a recumbent bike to a recumbent trike one day and at low speeds the bike was more efficient, as speed increased and aero became more important the trike (which was lower and more aero than the bike) showed increased efficiency. The effects were clearly visible at relatively low speeds rolling downhill unpowered. At 28 mph these differences are significant. These effects are well documented in various measurements and engineering calculations.

As the speed goes up all the little things become more important. Clothing, rider size and weight, riding position, aero bars, bike and helmet aerodynamics, tire and wheel aerodynamics, etc. There is a tendency to claim the highest speed observed, even though it may have been somewhat downhill and that part is left out, or even forgotten as the story is repeated. Also many of us don't have the gearing to load the BBSHD at high speeds, so we have no way to get full power from it in that speed regime.

I've been riding both a BBSHD mountain bike and a hubmotor bike lately. I find the hubmotor to be really convenient on the street, no worrying about being in the right gear, no worry about dropping power while shifting, just twist and go. The BBSHD really shines when the trail gets steep and technical as it makes awesome torque at low speed without getting hot. It is also nice when you need to lift the bike as it is light.

They each have their place.

A trike would be fun too, but perhaps more on bike paths. I haven't seen too many BBSHD trike builds, though it should work fine.

 

[gman1971]

There is always a trade off... of course.

The BBSHD might be fairly decent option for a lighter trike, and not having the external controller to deal with is definitively a big plus.

ATM I am building a ~100 mile range, 4.5 kW, 60mph capable mid-drive Cyclone tadpole trike, it should be operational this weekend. I am really building the trike to deal with my left wrist and my butt not agreeing with upright bikes anymore... I need a daily driver to replace my trusted mid-drive commuter eBike and this trike seemed like the most comfortable option to do it.

Some crazy guy around here bolted 28 kW into one of those, the thing seemed like a go-kart more than a pedal-assisted tricycle... hahaha... insane.

G.

Aerodynamics is significant on a bike over about 10 mph, the BBSHD's performance is limited more by air resistance than anything else on most bikes. Putting a BBSHD on a recumbent will make a significant improvement in aero limited activities such as downhill or level top speed over running one on a hybrid or mountain bike.

The recumbents generally hold the records for contests they're allowed to compete in, at least for level and downhill races where speeds are high enough for aero to be important, like over 15 mph. Recumbents were banned many years ago from racing to protect manufacturer's interests in the racing sports, so their development for racing was stunted and has never really recovered.

We compared a recumbent bike to a recumbent trike one day and at low speeds the bike was more efficient, as speed increased and aero became more important the trike (which was lower and more aero than the bike) showed increased efficiency. The effects were clearly visible at relatively low speeds rolling downhill unpowered. At 28 mph these differences are significant. These effects are well documented in various measurements and engineering calculations.

As the speed goes up all the little things become more important. Clothing, rider size and weight, riding position, aero bars, bike and helmet aerodynamics, tire and wheel aerodynamics, etc. There is a tendency to claim the highest speed observed, even though it may have been somewhat downhill and that part is left out, or even forgotten as the story is repeated. Also many of us don't have the gearing to load the BBSHD at high speeds, so we have no way to get full power from it in that speed regime.

I've been riding both a BBSHD mountain bike and a hubmotor bike lately. I find the hubmotor to be really convenient on the street, no worrying about being in the right gear, no worry about dropping power while shifting, just twist and go. The BBSHD really shines when the trail gets steep and technical as it makes awesome torque at low speed without getting hot. It is also nice when you need to lift the bike as it is light.

They each have their place.

A trike would be fun too, but perhaps more on bike paths. I haven't seen too many BBSHD trike builds, though it should work fine.

 

[Alan B]

I'm still in the planning stages for a trike, and I have a separate thread for that (which isn't getting much action), but choosing the drive system is still quite up in the air. I'm torn between the usual choices - geared hubmotor, DD hubmotor, BIG hubmotor and Mid-drive.

In the mid-drive camp we have BBSHD, Cyclone, LightningRod, and other.

Here in the SF Bay Area we have an extensive set of 500 miles of trails under development:

http://baytrail.org/

It is about 3.5 miles to reach this trail from home.

Now at this point it is not completely clear that ebikes are allowed, I don't see much about that, but the recent push of bike manufacturers in California lawmaking to get ebikes the status of normal bikes makes it likely that, in the long run some types of ebikes will be allowed there. Most likely type I and II, and a bit less likely type III. As a reminder for those not following the California Law, type I and II are 750W 20 mph Throttle and Pedelec, and type III is 750W 28 mph Pedelec.

So that means 750W 20 mph Throttle/Pedelec is the most likely.

Now the question is, with the weight of a trike carrying all the junk I'd like to put on it (big battery, sunshade, food and water, clothing, ham radio gear), and the trail friendly requirements, what would be the best motor?

A big hubmotor is quiet, heavy, and really calls for more than 750W. Limited to 750W the climbing ability is questionable, and we have hills. Lots of unused capacity here.

A geared hubmotor is quiet, light, visually minimal and makes good use of 750W. it precludes the use of an internally geared hub.

A BBSHD is quiet, visually stealthy, and runs cool at 750W. It has no problems climbing and will lift a trike up a steep grade if the gearing is there. With the long chainline of a trike a multispeed front crank could be used to give even more gearing range.

A Cyclone is slightly noisy, has more visual impact as well as whizzing parts, and has slightly more power capacity than we'll be able to use.

Other mid drives have whizzing parts and either reliability problems, or are visually unstealthy and probably aren't the way to go for a multi-use trail bike.

I have not made a decision yet, but the BBSHD seems to be a strong contender for situations where you want compatibility with a wide variety of people on the trail, and you need significant climbing capacity.

I'd like to make a Cyclone or LightningRods build, but just haven't found a good use for one myself. I'm still looking though.

My trike planning thread is here:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=72057

 

[gman1971]

Nice, another trike!! woohooo!!

Here in Madison WI is a fairly well developed infrastructure for bikes... so I take advantage of that when possible.

The truth is that you can ride an eBike powered by say a Small Block Chevy V8 and if you ride it within normal parameters nobody will ever complain about it, and ppl will be digging it. Yet you can ride a stealthy 500W hub like an idiot and you'll get more complains about that than from the V8 eBike who is riding at normal speeds. In the end an eBike is just a tool, and used according to the situation its a great tool; now, used the wrong way seems like a very fast way to get in trouble, or killed... Stealth or not, acting like an idiot with an eBike is a sure way to get you in trouble and the repercussions.. well, I fly RC helis, and the drone craze has brought the hobby to a gov mess... every person went and bought one of those DJIs and flew those around everywhere, without any concern or care so this is what we got: FAA registration, fees, potential gov fines... if we act like idiots on eBikes we'll get the same... regardless of being Stealth or looking like a MacGyver's best contraption...

I am building a 60-70 mph trike so I can have enough top end to ride along with traffic on the road in case I need to do things that require merging, but when I ride my current 40mph top end capable eBike I seldom ride at that speed. 30mph cruise I found to be the a good speed for battery endurance/time to get there balance. During our family weekend adventures, even if we all ride a 25+ mph capable eBike, we ride usually at 12-15mph, sort of enjoy the ride...

G.

 

[IzzyMandelbaum]

Does the BBS had have a built in cut off sensor? For example, if I pedal backwards will it stop the motor so I can change gears? Or do I need to buy a cut off sensor?

Thank you.

 

[opperpanter]

Does the BBS had have a built in cut off sensor? For example, if I pedal backwards will it stop the motor so I can change gears? Or do I need to buy a cut off sensor?

Thank you.

Yes, it stops if you stop pedaling (or pedal backwards).

 

[Voltron]

But he won't be able to change gears if he's pedaling backwards? They do make an interrupter that goes on the gear cable...or some just tap the brake lever, not enough to make the pads touch, but enough to stop the motor during a gear change

 

[Alan B]

Shifting with the BBSHD is not difficult.

If you stop pedaling, or pedal backward the PAS drops out and the motor cuts power and begins to spin down. There is plenty of momentum in the motor to shift at this time.

You can always depress the throttle slightly. This causes the throttle to take over and run the motor at low speed, making it easy to shift. You can keep pedaling if you want. Unless you were stopped or going very slowly the motor will not be going fast enough to apply torque to the gears.

It may seem a little strange that pressing the throttle causes the motor to slow down when you are in PAS, but this is the way their controls work. The throttle disables the PAS and a low throttle setting generates either low speed or low torque depending on how you have the controller set. In either case shifting works nicely.

When you release the throttle the PAS takes over again. It is just a manual override.

 

[lonespin]

Looks ok,but not sure I like the crank arms?

Isis crank arms would have me sold.

 

[1KW]

yeah.. ISIS cranks, reprogram controller to 40amps, bulletproof gears ...maybe for bbs04? Assuming they keep going how they have been, maybe another year or so?

 

[lonespin]

When this kit comes with Isis crank arms ,I’ll consider it.

 

[Woodytx]

Has anyone figured out how to get more than 30 amps out of the stock controller?

 

[Chalo]

Has anyone figured out how to get more than 30 amps out of the stock controller?

You itchin' to strip the nylon gear in there, or what? You already can gear down for as much torque as you could possibly stick to the ground. Why would you want to make a reliable system unreliable for a benefit you already have?