Battery pack on/off switch problem

Promille

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Jan 3, 2016
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55
Hi,

My 72V unit pack battery suddenly started to have on/off switch issue. I have to toggle the switch and turn on the bike in the off position at the battery then quickly toggle the switch to on and then everything works as it should.

I am thinking this must be a bms issue or??

Thanks!
 

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Not knowing the specific behavior you see when doing things in the normal manner it's harder to say what might be wrong.

If the system won't turn on with the battery already on, that's usually a problem with the cells in the battery. One or more of them is probably sagging in voltage under the initial current-inrush as the controller turns on. (but this problem should behave similarly either way).

Sometimes it's just the switch itself, if it's a mechanical on/off switch and not just turning the BMS on/off--the switch could have arcing damage inside it.

Almost always a "BMS issue" isn't really the BMS, but is the cells, and the BMS is doing the job it's intended to by protecting the cells against usage that could cause damage to them that can lead to a fire.

Many UPP*** packs have no balancers, and are made of really cheap unmatched cells, so they perform worse and worse over time as the cell groups get more and more different in voltage. At some point they get different enough (often around 0.1v) the BMS calls it and shuts off the charge and discharge ports, if it's designed correctly. It may also do this under certain loading conditions temporarily, but reset and turn them back on once the load is gone and power is cycled.


***also true of most of the other "brands" of cheap packs out there. UPP has options for better cells, BMS, etc., but you have to pay for all of those, so if it's a cheaper one, it probably has the cheaper stuff in it.
 
Ok, thanks for the reply. Well its one of those cheeper packs but i does take charge as it should and yes it does not turn on when the switch is in the on position. Guess i have to open the pack for further inspection.
 
Does it have problems when riding under high load?

If you have a wattmeter you can also watch for voltage sag under high load.

Either of those probably indicates a cell issue in the battery you can then test for.
 
I have not really tried this pack under high load for a long ride to much snow and ice where i live right now.

The display does show volts, with me on the bike it drops from 81,5v to 75-76v when taking off.

I opend the pack and took a look at the cells, they are samsung.
 

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This was strange though with the switch at the off position the voltage is 73.6 but when pushing at the battery gage button it dropt to 1.2v
 

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This was strange though with the switch at the off position the voltage is 73.6 but when pushing at the battery gage button it dropt to 1.2v
That means the BMS turned the output off because it detected an out-of-limits condition, which is exactly what it is supposed to do.

What that limit was that was exceeded is what you have to find out, so you can prevent it from being exceeded, or repair / replace the part causing the limit to be exceeded.

The limit could be a cell or cells that have too high an internal resistance and/or too low a capacity, so they sag in voltage too far under a high enough load, and trigger the BMS's LVC, or even the difference-between-cells limit. Or it could be overcurrent, the controller drawing too much current at powerup/inrush. Etc.


I have not really tried this pack under high load for a long ride to much snow and ice where i live right now.

The display does show volts, with me on the bike it drops from 81,5v to 75-76v when taking off.
If it's normal full voltage is 81.5v, then if it's a 20s pack (typical for "72v"), they're only charging to 4.075v each (assuming perfect cell matching and thus balance).

If they sag to 75v under startup load (how many amps?) that's 3.75v each, so they're sagging almost down to "half full" status. Each cell is losing 0.325v, or nearly 10% of it's voltage.

Also, the actual drop could be much worse, since many of the voltmeters on these things don't update very fast or often, so you might miss the worst of the voltage drop before the load drops.

Picking a random Samsung 35E cell (since you said they're samsungs, but not which ones and it's not fully readable in the pics) from Lgyte's testing:
According to the discharge chart there, if they start at about 4v unloaded, they're probably only about 3/4 full (or less), based on the lowest-current load line and assuming minimal voltage drop from that.

To drop down to 3.75v from that point, they're probably seeing about a 3A load or so, per cell. At a guess, the pack is probably 4 or 5p, so 12-15A load when you're starting up from a stop. You'd have to verify that with a multimeter.

Knowing if this is actually true or not, you can compare your actual voltage sag to the actual current per cell and guess if the cells you have match the testing done by Lgyte, and the cell specs.

Then that, along with whether all the cells are exactly equal in voltage at that point (and when full, and when empty) will tell you if they are meeting actual cell specs and whether they are matched to each other.

1705868793759.png


I opend the pack and took a look at the cells, they are samsung.

Brand doesn't matter, directly (it isn't a useful indicator of whether a pack is any good or not).

Cell specs and quality (how closely the actual cells come to meeting the specs of that specific model), vs actual usage requirements, as well as how closely matched the cells are to each other, are what matter.

The last part is usually the problem--the cells don't usually come even remotely close to matching each other's characteristics.

The first part is another separate problem that might not apply to your setup--most of the packs people buy aren't actually able to handle the loads they put on them, because the purchasers usually get whatever says it will (barely) meet the current limits of the
 
Thanks again for the swift reply. The controller is a 45A max 22A nominal i guess, i was also thinking this could be something with the powerup/inrush. Maybe i should take down the amps a bit it can be done by the display, the problem begun after i ramped up the amps and the throttle respons when I'm thinking about it.

Yes the cells are samsung 35E and the pack claims to be 14.4Ah but i never trust that. I have only charged the pack up to about 80% so 82V ish. I do own a grin satiator maybe i should try to charge the pack to 84V with it?

Or maybe switch the bms to one of those smart bms's to easier find the bad cell/cells and if there are any?
 
I didn't know UPP sold those whale batteries in 72V. Are you sure it's only 14.6AH. Samsung 35E's are 3.5AH with 8A max discharge. An 80 cell, 20x4 matrix is 72V14Ah and rated for 32A. A 100 cell, 20x5 matrix, makes for a 72V17.5AH and 40A. You're pushing the latter and punishing the former at 40A. Continued use at high currents can unbalance the battery,

Is there room in one of those cases for a smart BMS? Maybe for 80 cells, probably not 100.

Usually, a battery LED gauge is put on the BMS output, so the battery has to be turned on to see it work. When you're measuring 73.6V with the battery off., I believe that's just residual charge on the output. I think that pressing the on button for the battery gauge discharges the residual charge. It really shouldn't, but these gauges are cheap and not designed to be high impedance like a multimeter.

Does the battery turns on reliably with nothing connected, as you show in the picture.
 
I didn't know UPP sold those whale batteries in 72V. Are you sure it's only 14.6AH. Samsung 35E's are 3.5AH with 8A max discharge. An 80 cell, 20x4 matrix is 72V14Ah and rated for 32A. A 100 cell, 20x5 matrix, makes for a 72V17.5AH and 40A. You're pushing the latter and punishing the former at 40A. Continued use at high currents can unbalance the battery,

Is there room in one of those cases for a smart BMS? Maybe for 80 cells, probably not 100.

Usually, a battery LED gauge is put on the BMS output, so the battery has to be turned on to see it work. When you're measuring 73.6V with the battery off., I believe that's just residual charge on the output. I think that pressing the on button for the battery gauge discharges the residual charge. It really shouldn't, but these gauges are cheap and not designed to be high impedance like a multimeter.

Does the battery turns on reliably with nothing connected, as you show in the picture.
Yes upp sells both 60v and 70v whale batteries. I am pretty sure it's a 14ah pack when I opened the battery i saw unused cell holders.

I have to investigate more to see if there is room for a smart bms, it would be nice if there is though.

Yes the pack goes up to 82V when I flick the switch to on with nothing connected.

Thanks!
 
If it is the polly dp-9 that will hold 91- odd cels, I am going by statements of vendor not hard proof on that, I have a pair of them on order and will happily report once it gets here.

There are a couple I ran across that look like motorcycle gas tanks and they have 3 blocks of batt's inside stated on one of them was 150 cels, again, not verified just off the web site.
 
Thanks again for the swift reply. The controller is a 45A max 22A nominal i guess, i was also thinking this could be something with the powerup/inrush. Maybe i should take down the amps a bit it can be done by the display, the problem begun after i ramped up the amps and the throttle respons when I'm thinking about it.
If it only started after using the pack harder, then it's most likely a cell problem as previously noted, in which case you'll see different voltages for different cell groups.

Yes the cells are samsung 35E and the pack claims to be 14.4Ah but i never trust that. I have only charged the pack up to about 80% so 82V ish. I do own a grin satiator maybe i should try to charge the pack to 84V with it?
If the BMS is even a balancing type at all (as UPP doens't put those in unless you ask or the sale page specifies that's what comes in it), it is probably only the type that does so at full charge. In that event, if you're not fully charging it, and the cells are not all exactly identical, then they will become more and more different in state of charge (voltage) every cycle.

If you find the cells are different voltages when measuring them for each group of cells, then this is happening, and to actually fix the problem you'd have to replace all the cells with identical matched cells that all have exactly the same characteristics, and not use them near their current limits, etc.

To mitigate the problem you could just fully charge the pack and leave it on the BMS long enough to fully balance them, which depending on the BMS design and the difference in cell voltages can take hours, days, or weeks. That's assuming your BMS has a balancing function at all.

If the BMS is advanced enough design it may balance at any voltage, but this would be a feature they'd call out on the battery sale page as it's not common. Same for programmable balance voltages.

Or maybe switch the bms to one of those smart bms's to easier find the bad cell/cells and if there are any?
Those are good for keeping an eye on packs you expect to have problems, but you still have to open a pack up to test and repair it if there are problems.
 
If it only started after using the pack harder, then it's most likely a cell problem as previously noted, in which case you'll see different voltages for different cell groups.


If the BMS is even a balancing type at all (as UPP doens't put those in unless you ask or the sale page specifies that's what comes in it), it is probably only the type that does so at full charge. In that event, if you're not fully charging it, and the cells are not all exactly identical, then they will become more and more different in state of charge (voltage) every cycle.

If you find the cells are different voltages when measuring them for each group of cells, then this is happening, and to actually fix the problem you'd have to replace all the cells with identical matched cells that all have exactly the same characteristics, and not use them near their current limits, etc.

To mitigate the problem you could just fully charge the pack and leave it on the BMS long enough to fully balance them, which depending on the BMS design and the difference in cell voltages can take hours, days, or weeks. That's assuming your BMS has a balancing function at all.

If the BMS is advanced enough design it may balance at any voltage, but this would be a feature they'd call out on the battery sale page as it's not common. Same for programmable balance voltages.


Those are good for keeping an eye on packs you expect to have problems, but you still have to open a pack up to test and repair it if there are problems.
Thanks,
First i will try to balance charge the battery with my satiator to mitigate the problem as you say.

But i wont use this battery for this system anymore i have one of those tank batteries which is more powefull.
I guess i will replace the bad cells and add a new smart bms to the pack in the future and use it for something less power consuming.
 
I had a tank battery brought by from one of the local kids, He asked me what was wrong with it.
Long story short, it ended up with paperwork (they bought it off Amazon) and it said "Logging and data collecting BMS" So I contacted the company, was rudely informed that the BMS balanced batteries and you could not hook it to your cel phone...

I now see why everyone hates battery vendors.
 
Thanks,
First i will try to balance charge the battery with my satiator to mitigate the problem as you say.
Before you do that:


*measure the cell voltages*



or you don't even know what problems you have, or if you even *have* a problem.

If you charge it without knowing what problems there are, you won't be able to test for them again until the same issue crops up again.

Test it now and you'll already kjnow and can be planning ahead on what to do....and if there isn't a cell voltage difference then you don't have to waste your time charging to full.
 
You have another battery? How does that work on your bike?
The tank battery i have works as it should. I actually made it dual battery system with one of those "battery blenders"
The thought was using the upp pack for shorter rides then adding the tank for range, its a heavy beast.
 

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Before you do that:


*measure the cell voltages*



or you don't even know what problems you have, or if you even *have* a problem.

If you charge it without knowing what problems there are, you won't be able to test for them again until the same issue crops up again.

Test it now and you'll already kjnow and can be planning ahead on what to do....and if there isn't a cell voltage difference then you don't have to waste your time charging to full.
Ok, will do so.

I am thinking of hooking up the battery to another controller also just to see if the same problem occurs maybe its a inrush issue as you mentioned before, to rule that one out.
 
Worth a try, but If the other controller and system dont' have the same capacitance and internal resistance and other powerup characteristics, the problem may be different or not happen at all.
 
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