Battery Packs with Integrated Controllers for Hub Motor

[Neskie]

Hi There ES Peeps,

I've been planning my first e-bike build/conversion for the better part of a year (indecision KOM ). I'm getting down to the specifics finally. But I need some help with the battery pack selection. Much more specifically, I'm looking for more detailed information on commercially-available, Li-Ion battery packs with sine wave motor controllers (i.e. for hub motors) integrated directly into the pack/case. My hope is to find a battery pack/case with a controller that can be taken on and off the bike as a complete unit. The bike I plan on converting is my regular/daily commuter. It's a pretty nice bike, and I plan on continuing to use it as a conventional (unassisted) bike for recreational rides. The plan is to make it as easy as possible to switch back and forth between unassisted and pedel-assist; hopefully by simply removing the battery pack/controller combo and swapping out the rear hub motor wheel for a regular wheel.

So far I have found a couple options for packs with integrated controllers from BMS Battery:
The "Case-08" (a.k.a. Shark Pack) with 18A controller:
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/774-48v116ah-case-08-bottle-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html

The "Bottle-09" (a.k.a. Dolphin Pack) with 20A controller:
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/681-48v10ah-bottle-09-e-bike-battery-pack-battery.html

I have found a few postings here on ES about these two packs. Mostly, it seems users are discussing the short comings of the packs' mounting plate. However, I have not found any detailed information on the controllers themselves. So onto the questions/request:

i) First, does anyone have and technical documents/specifications for the controllers? (i.e. connector types, controller capabilities)

Ii) Does anyone have personal experience using the integrated controllers with these packs

iii) Does anyone know of any other similar Li-Ion packs that have integrated controllers?

iv) Does anyone have any clever ways (i.e. homebrew methods) of combining a separate controller and a commercial bottle pack into a single unit?


For reference, here are the details of my prospective build:
- Bicycle: Spot Brand, Sprawl Model - Steel Cyclocross frame with Drop Bars (Roadie Setup)
- Motor: Q100C CST 36V350W rear hub motor, 201 RPM version with 700C wheel
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/651-q100c-cst-36v350w-32-hole-rear-driving-hub-motor-ebike-kit.html
- Battery: 48V10ah Li-Ion (13S4P) - Probably the Case-09 with integrated controller
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/680-48v116ah-bottle-09-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html
- Controller: Hopefully battery integrated, otherwise probably the S12S 500W
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/552-s12s-500w-torque-simulation-sine-wave-controller-ebike-kit.html
- PAS/Throttle: Hopefully no throttle, PAS only
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/...sistant-sensor-with-12-pcs-magnets-parts.html
- Display: Again hopefully no display. Or I will cable-tie the display to the battery pack to act as an on/off switch
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/548-s-lcd1-e-bike-lcd-meter-ebike-kit.html
- Brake Sensor: TripWire (new) probably used at the caliper of my mechanical disc brakes
http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/tripwire.html


Also for reference, here is my commute/riding style details:
- 40 mi round trip commute. Will probably charge battery at work between the two 20mile trips if I can't get the full 40mi from the 10ah battery pack
- I'm an athletic cyclist, so I'll be supplying all of the startup effort and still want to supply much of the power output at cruise
- Mostly flat, paved roads and trails (not much need for low-end torque)
- Will be riding in all conditions (rain, snow, ice)
- Will be swapping wheels/battery for regularly riding as much as twice per week
- Just looking to take out some of the daily fatigue from 40mi of riding (leaving something left for my mountain bike )

Thanks for your help!!!!

 

[MadRhino]

I would not integrate a controller with a battery because of the heat buildup, but it is possible that it may be reliable at a low power level with adequate insulation between both.

I would not find practical to switch a hub motor wheel twice a week. I would prefer using another bike.

 

[docw009]

The battery cradle is pretty light and could be left on the bike. You will save six pounds by taking off the battery, Less than that for the cradle. You will find that the waterproof Higo connectors to the motor and the controls aren't really suited for repeated plug/unplug cycles. My suggestion is to just pull the battery and ride it with everything else connected.

I use torque arms on my Q100H motors, and there's no slop in my drop outs. The axle fits very tight. I couldn't be swapping wheels twice a week.

Less wear on the connectors. Less wear on the axle/nuts from constant retightening. The Q100H motor only weighs about 4.2 pounds, and has very little drag, although it will only spin for about 10 seconds if you flip the wheel.

You'll have to hear from other users about the tradeoffs of running w/o the LCD. It sure does limit the PAS selection,

 

[Tushar D]

I have had the bottle 09 battery with the integrated controller on a front geared hub. I ordered it from greenbikekit.
It runs great. The initial torque is amazing. You can easily get 40 miles out of it if using it only for assist from 10ah pack. I have found the controller heatsink warm to the touch at most, but terrain here is mostly flat with occasional hill.

The integrated controller makes a compact setup.

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Neskie]

...You will find that the waterproof Higo connectors to the motor and the controls aren't really suited for repeated plug/unplug cycles. My suggestion is to just pull the battery and ride it with everything else connected.

I use torque arms on my Q100H motors, and there's no slop in my drop outs. The axle fits very tight. I couldn't be swapping wheels twice a week.

Thanks docw009. I didn't think about the wear on the Higo connectors. If they are challenging with regular plugging/unplugging that could be a real problem. I might have to look for alternative connectors in the future.

However, I was also being pretty liberal with my "twice a week". It's more likely I'll be swapping it out twice a month during good weather months and leaving the kit on full-time during the winter months. I was planning on leaving the wires and battery cradle on the bike when I take the wheel off. However, I'm using a Gates Belt Drive, so I'm stuck with a single speed. The unpowered hub motor/wheel would still be usable, but probably not super pleasant.

Regarding the torque arms, I already use a torque arm with my internal gear hub (as one of the wheelsets that I use with this bike). So for better or worse, I'm pretty comfortable with the not-so-straigtforward wheel swap procedure :/ ... Although you're right, it's probably going to be a tight fit. I'm not sure the Q100 threaded axle will like my quick release dropouts. I'm probably also going to have to play with the spacing since I'll be using a disc brake, and I hear there can be some interference between the caliper and the Q100 hub shell.

 

[Neskie]

I have had the bottle 09 battery with the integrated controller on a front geared hub. I ordered it from greenbikekit.
It runs great. The initial torque is amazing. You can easily get 40 miles out of it if using it only for assist from 10ah pack. I have found the controller heatsink warm to the touch at most, but terrain here is mostly flat with occasional hill.

The integrated controller makes a compact setup.

Hi Tushar D, I'm glad to hear you like the setup! Also glad about the potential range .... quick question for you, when you remove the batter from the "cradle" (the part that attached to the bike frame using the water bottle mounts), do the controller and wires stay with the cradle? In other words, can you leave the controller and connecting wires attached to the bike when you take off the battery?

Also, if you have any photos of the Bottle-09 connectors, that would be a big help. I'm not sure what inputs it has other than the Higo connector for the motor.

 

[Obiwan007]

Hey Neski, I would really like to see pictures of your TripWire integrated into the mechanical caliper. It is an idea that has been kicking around and I think it may be a good solution for those with mechanical brakes.