Best eBay 36V 20AH LiPo Pack?

[wesnewell]

cwah, I've hard of people still using lipo from 2006, so life can be much longer than 3 years. I've been using the 18s2p pack I use now for about a year with maybe 100 cycles on it and it's still going strong. Considering it was really cheap (under $200) 10C and probably a year old when I got it, I'm pretty well convinced that in normal ebike use, and properly taken care of current lipo will last for at least 3-6 years and take 500-1000 cycles and maybe more. I guess I've been lucky, but I've never gotten a dud pack out of the 18 I've bought. 12 from HK and 6 from leaderhobby. As for nanotech, I don't think the premium price is worth it for low power ebike type use which normally won't exceed 3-5C use.

 

[everest]

If your using a celllog 8s? I presume it can monitor 8 cells , however 36v is 10s? how does one monitor all cells?

 

[cwah]

Dogman, your lipo really don't seem to have a very long life :lol:
If it's less than 100 cycles it definitely doesn't worth it as commuting battery. I think the main reason of your capacity loss from the Turnigy is that you've kept them fully charged all the time. I've read from battery university that at full charge, a lithium battery loose 15-20% of its capacity every year. But at 60% charge they only loose around 4-5%/year.

I have for now 4 zippy 5s8AH of 6 months old and 25 cycles on them. Still going strong but I can only use about 400wh from 4.1V to 3.7V.
Now I use them as my commuting battery, I cycle them every day. Will see how long they'll last :lol:


Wedneswell, lipo are actually not that cheap. At equivalent capacity, NMC batteries are cheaper than lipo.
I'm thinking about the nanotech because the support from hobbyking told me that the shelf life is longer than standard lipo (so not just the C rate). They can also handle 1-2C rate charge (15C lipo may have some trouble to charge at 1C) and they have very low voltage sag. 2V sag on a 74V lipo set up means that the LVC alarm start much quicker and you can't use that much the lipo

 

[Allex]

No BMS in the LiPos
You can buy something like this to have a 37V20Ah pack
the Hyperion charger 1420i from US and the rest is from HobbyKing:

1x540w 100~120v Power Supply (13.8v~18v - 30amp) = $67
1x #TR-Wattmeter/10080 Turnigy 130A Watt Meter and Power Analyzer = $23.95
4x #N5000.10S.25/14609 Turnigy nano-tech 5000mah 10S 25~50C Lipo Pack = $435
3x #R10A1780-06/9671 Turnigy Pure-Silicone Wire 10AWG (1mtr) RED = $8.97
3x #B10A1780-06/9672 Turnigy Pure-Silicone Wire 10AWG (1mtr) BLACK = $8.97
2x #AM1009x10/9283 HXT 4mm Gold Connector w/ Protector (10pcs/set) = $7.28
3x #JST-XH-CLIP5S/19942 Balance Plug Savers (JST-XH 5s) (5pc Per Bag) = $4.77
2x #101b-103a-5s/11891 Female JST-XH <-> Male Polyquest 5S 10cm (5pcs/bag) = $3.96

All in all a lot of money, quite a bit of work, some hassle when charging(plug in a bunch of cords every time) also add a bit of anxiety because its LiPo

Today I would just talk to cell_man at http://www.emissions-free.com/ to make me a lifepo4 pack with built in BMS and a plug and play 12A charger, worth every penny. Forget those packs at ebay, almost all of them have hundreds of cylindrical cells in them which makes them heavy.
My friend got a 12S@20Ah from him today and it looks great:
12S 20Ah A123 pouch pack, 590USD
36V 12A charger 115USD

 

[dogman dan]

Did I say I was commuting with this battery? NO. Racing it, Dirt riding it. Beating it like my ex girlfriends dog then storing it at 4.2v. And it's still lasting two years. Should last a very long time commuting, one cycle per day, or if two, very shallow cycles followed by undercharging.

The ones I killed fast was my noob mistakes, mostly very deep discharges. And a few that just came dead, like they do.

I commute with ping lifepo4 because I need to charge at work, and not worry. I want a bms. Because it should last more cycles than lipo, by about double. Because it's going to take a big pack to ride 15 miles home, all uphill. Cost per mile, it's cheapest. It's basic transportation budget. Cost is the prime consideration, not size or weight or c rate.

Over in the fun budget, I don't care a rip about cost per mile. Just smiles per mile. So I use lipo in the fun budget. I want it light, and I want amps. I'm thrilled to see em last two years the way I treat toys.

 

[cwah]

Dogman, sorry I didn't know you were treating the turnigy like your ex-girlfriend dog :lol:
I hope my lipo is going to last 2 years because I baby them... but I cycle them every day! Will see

Jdo300,
- Your best "plug and play" 36V20AH pack is from Cellman, A123 20AH pack at 590$ is 80$ more expensive than a ping, but 25% lighter and much more powerful. It worth all the Lifepo4 pack you've found from eBay and even from Ping. I contacted Ping before and they don't plan to sell any higher density battery, too sad because technology evolve and A123 are just superior on every points to standard lifepo4.

You can find cheaper A123 from chinese seller but that would be without the warranty of a working battery... especially on long term.

- Your best cheap pack is either the NMC from BMSBattery or Lipo pack. You'll have modularity as bonus but a lot of anxiety, additional cost (charger/wires/etc) and time to baby these powerful batteries. If it's not a hobby, don't go this road

 

[999zip999]

Buy a hyperion 1420 eos 3 charger for 14s and a hp power supply under around 200.00usd. with harnesess and ? Oh an old small square baraque for charging. Then you could go 14s later ? If you only use 6c or under. I go 27mph and try to cruise at 22mph and got it down to 12-14 on the beach, but 14-19mph up a hil is my thrill. Thanks Dogman.

 

[Jdo300]

Hello cwah,

Yes, You pretty much summarized how I'm feeling at this point. I do appreciate the customizability of the RC packs, but it does appear to be a bit more work to maintain and charge, especially with the need for the special chargers and other things. I do realize that for some this is no big deal (and honestly, I wouldn't make such a fuss about it myself), but at this point, I am really looking for something that I can just mount on my bike and plug into a charger without the additional hassles.

I will send an e-mail to cellman asking about building a 36V 20AH pack. Do you know if they offer any options for protective enclosures or bags? What do most people here prefer to use? I would like to mount the pack on my back rack since I currently have my controller mounted in the space where some had suggested using triangle bags.

- Jason O

 

[999zip999]

Turn your controller around and move it up. Get a cellman triangle battery at 51v11ah or better a 36v20ah. Or put the controller under the seat ? Or under the rear rack maybe a fender or tupper ware for protection ect. love it in the triangle (battery ). Get a Ping or better as of cells.

 

[dnmun]

.

 

[Jdo300]

i thought you were gonna order a pack from sun-thing?

you used lipo in the title but it was lifepo4 you were looking at before the thread got over to lipo.

it would be good to see those packs in use, to compare to ping and the headway packs.

i recommended the other guy contact sun-thing and see if they would split that big 48V20Ah pack up into two pieces for him. BOL

I am still definitely considering that option. As you all can probably tell, I've been bouncing back and forth between going for eBay, building an RC pack, or buying one from Ping/Cellman. I'm sure that ultimately, my budget will likely dictate what I can actually get, and I'm not totally opposed to going for one of the eBay ones. I wouldn't mind being the guinea pig for everyone here as long as I could at least make an informed decision on which one is least likely to be DOA, explode, catch fire, die in 5 minutes, die in 5 days, etc as soon as I try to use it...

- Jason O

 

[cwah]

Hello Jdo300,

I don't know if cellman provide any enclosure, you can check with him. You can use any waterproof box to protect the lipo but you need some foam (or something similar) to protect them from vibrations.

For now, I don't see the value of standard lifepo4 from Sunthings, headways, ping or any other over A123 cells. Unless a member tell me how they could be in any way better than the A123, I'd say if you can get them for a similar price to standard lifepo4, go for them.

 

[Jdo300]

Hello Everyone,

I've gone quiet for the past couple of weeks while waiting for a few communications back and forth from cellman. He is offering to build me a complete 36V 20AH A123 pack for around $870 shipped, which is not bad considering what I'm getting.

However, I'll need to save up a bit more for that pack since it's a bit more than my original $600 budget. So in the mean time, I purchased 3 12V 18AH AGM SLA batteries to use in the mean time until I can afford the better pack. Ultimately, the cellman packs look like the best long-term investment that I can see, especially since the larger discharge rating means my 350W system should treat it pretty gently (before I make and upgrade later).

For now I'm working on finding a good battery bag (or looking at making a case) that I can mount the SLAs in. Just curious but are there any threads here where people have discussed mounting options for SLAs? The ones I have now are Werker brand WKA12-18NB. My challenge now is that I would prefer to mount them in a saddle bag style arrangement, but since I have only three for 36V, that would obviously create a balancing issue. So the only other option I see is the mount all three together in a box on the back rack. I know i could also mount them in the frame in the middle but I'll have to see if there's actually enough room for it on my bike (old photo attached). What do you all think?

- Jason O

 

[mvly]

If the SLA is on the rack, I can guarantee it will bend and/or break the rack. Unless you never hit a pothole...

 

[cwah]

What's the weight of your SLA pack?

 

[dnmun]

.

 

[Jdo300]

What's the weight of your SLA pack?

The batteries weigh 12.8 lbs each.

you keep using the term lipo for lifepo4. that appears to be the standard lifepo4 36v10Ah pack, not lipo. lifepo4 is not lipo.

Sorry, my ignorance there. Thanks for the correction.

you would not be a guinea pig if you bot the pack from sun-thing. like i said, alfantastic has a friend who bot one and it works for him and they actually talked to him over skype. so ask him what he thinks of sun-thing.

Ok, thanks for the heads up again on that. I'll PM alfantastic and ask him about sun-thing.

dogman considered himself a guinea pig for li ping when li ping first appeared on ebay and he used the pack for years until it got drained down by accident.

paul makes good packs that fit the frame and use the cylindrical A123 which is safer than pouches because they are protected from damage by the steel jacket which also keeps them in compression so they last longer too.

Yes, when I contacted Paul, I asked him about hard cases for the battery packs and he does offer a plastic box case for the pack to mount on the rear rack as well. I would definitely prefer his pack most of all just from looking at how well-made it appears to be.

if you buy the lipo packs then you will need the HVC/LVC solution from methods or cellogs to monitor and then the chargers and charging harnesses so that will be part of the cost.

At this point in time, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to go with those. By the time I include the cost and hassle of the extra hardware, I might as well have bought a finished pack. But I can definitely see some of the advantages though.

spending money on lead is like like likeeeeeeeeeeeee, well just a waste i guess.

Yeah, I just got it as a temporary solution. Plus I got a nice price break on them since I traded in a bunch of old batteries that I had accumulated.

why not use the lifepo4 pack in the picture?

That is an old picture showing the bike with the original battery that came with the kit I have. The original battery died after it was left sitting too long undercharged (due to flat tire that I didn't bother to fix soon enough). Anyway, the battery lasted me for over 2 years of continuous use, which was nice. However, the company I got it from doesn't currently offer any 20AH versions of that battery.

- Jason O

 

[dogman dan]

Sounds like you are on the right track to go for the gold standard, Cellmans 20 ah A123 Lifepo4. Not only should quality cells last well, they will also provide more amps if you end up upgrading the controller to more power later.

Meanwhile the problem is how to carry the lead. Idealy you start with a very strong rack. You could put one battery on each side pannier style. At least one battery should be able to fit into the triangle of the bike.

Try to avoid mounting all three on top of a rear rack, it's just too much weight too high and to the rear.

 

[Jdo300]

Hello Everyone,

Just checking in to give you all an update on my situation. I still haven't bothered to mount the Lead-Acid batteries on my bike, but I did finally make a decision on the 20AH pack. After having some back and forth with both Cellman and Ping. I decided to go with the Ping battery.

I really like Cellman as it definitely does fine work, and for someone who would like a good, high discharge bank of A123's, he is definitely the one to goto from what I can tell. However, to get what I really needed, I was looking at around $860 shipped to my door for the pack. Since my limited budget doesn't allow me to for that one, I decided to go with the Ping pack. Also, I picked out a nice trunk bag with panniers, which Ping recommended for enclosing the pack. This site here seemed to have the best deal at the time I was looking:

http://www.modernbike.com/itemgroup.asp?IGPK=2126176145

So I ordered a bag and matching rack to replace my existing one. However, my existing rack and bag will be handed down to my friend, who is also planning to purchase an e-bike kit for his bike also. If anyone is interested, I'll keep this thread updated as I get the system up and running, and would be happy to post some pictures of my completed setup when done.

- Jason O

 

[The fingers]

Pictures of the pannier set up would be great. Let everyone know how it goes!

 

[dogman dan]

Which ping? I have been very happy with my 15 ah size one. It has enough c rate to run typical 20-25 amp controllers. So that would be your upgrade limit if you got a 15 ah ping. If you got a 20 ah pack, then you'd have enough amps to run a 30 amp controller later.

In the 15 ah size you should be able to find a toolbox or tackle box to carry the battery in, and it will be tolerable to carry on a rear rack if you wish. But a frame mount box would be best of all. Even a 36v 20 ah should fit.

 

[999zip999]

Ping new cell are better they can take 35amps on the flats with a 20ah. But hills would kill a cell. So 25-30amps if you push it oh yea what motor.

 

[Jdo300]

Hi Everyone,

Yes I just ordered my Ping 36V 20AH pack a couple of days ago for about $697.00 including shipping to the US. So far my e-mail correspondence has been great. As many have said, Ping is an excellent supplier and I'm looking forward to putting this pack through it's paces.

With their high rate BMS option, the pack can handle up to 60A continuous, which is almost up there with the cellman packs but for less. I'm pretty sure this will be a good buy. More to come soon.

- Jason O

 

[999zip999]

Make sure you charge it till the leds come on Ask Dogman on the amps, but 30amps sounds good for the controller with a C.A. It will spike to maybe 38amps. I would add a single cell charger as pings are set to3.8v perfect auto shutoff. Or the 5a charger. But the 2a works fine. Mister Li Ping. Dogman you still collecting your Ping battery point's i think you up to 346 points

 

[dogman dan]

Not sure what you mean by points? My current ping has 220 cycles, and is 2.5 years old.

30 amps will be fine on that 20 ah ping, continous like up a steep hill. Spikes of 40 amps should be fine too, but not a spike like that every few seconds.


$700 shipped. Wow, the price just keeps creeping up. What ever happened to falling lifepo4 prices?