Best way to lace a larger diameter direct drive hub motor for the most reliability?

[zeddrick]

From what I could gather through other forum posts and youtube videos it seems like alternating the spokes at the flange of the hub from in/out/in/out, etc, is the way to go? From doing it this way you apparently create alternating pushing and pulling spokes? My motor kit originally came with all of the spokes on the inside of the hub flanges and my spokes started breaking after 3k miles or so (original 12g spokes), so I'm trying to do what I can to get the most life out of the brand new rim and 14g butted spokes I got.

I now have a new rim with regular 14g spoke nipple beds (eyelets?), a set of 14g butted sapim spokes, and #2 brass washers to fit under the smaller 14g spoke heads for the motor hub flange which was made for slightly larger 12g spoke heads. I've been reading up on sheldon brown and trying to learn as best as I can.

I have also heard that putting all the spokes on the outside of the hub flanges gives more strength? It doesn't seem like there is a definitive answer for which is best but I have noticed on all my regular bicycles that they are laced in an alternating spoke pattern (inside flange, outside flange, etc).

 

[DogDipstick]

Heads in will give you the str4onget wheel. All heads in.

First cross on the Leading MUST be behind the Trailing spoke.

Do both of these things, and you will have very strong wheel.

This wheel takes 60mph daily and well over 10kW peaks. These are 12g on a 19" moto rim. See the lace pattern.

 

[PaPaSteve]

An equal spoke bracing angle allows all the spokes to carry an equal load increasing the odds of a longer lasting wheel.
Enter the hub and rim dimensions into the grin spoke calculator and then play with "options" buttons to find the best / most equal tension bracing angle.
The side with higher tension is doing the most work.

https://ebikes.ca/tools/spoke-calc.html?pair=false&lelb=in

 

[Chalo]

Heads in will give you the str4onget wheel. All heads in.

That's only true for a symmetrical hub (where the flanges are centered with respect to the axle). With an offset hub, like most of them these days, it's best to lace spokes heads in on the flatter side (drive side rear, disc side front) and heads out on the more conical side. That helps equalize spoke tension a bit.

First cross on the Leading MUST be behind the Trailing spoke.

That makes no difference structurally.

I'll add that cross-1 lacing is usually best for hub motor wheels. But when the hub is large and the rim is small, the only pattern than works is radial or modified radial lacing. There's never any reason to use cross-2 or greater lacing pattern on a hub motor, and doing do can cause spokes to break at the threaded end.

 

[Bullfrog]

That's only true for a symmetrical hub (where the flanges are centered with respect to the axle). With an offset hub, like most of them these days, it's best to lace spokes heads in on the flatter side (drive side rear, disc side front) and heads out on the more conical side. That helps equalize spoke tension a bit.



That makes no difference structurally.

I'll add that cross-1 lacing is usually best for hub motor wheels. But when the hub is large and the rim is small, the only pattern than works is radial or modified radial lacing. There's never any reason to use cross-2 or greater lacing pattern on a hub motor, and doing do can cause spokes to break at the threaded end.

What is "modified radial lacing"?

I plan to go with a 24" rim for my next ebike build...smallest diameter I can use a one cross lacing pattern.

Thanks for the help .

 

[E-HP]

What is "modified radial lacing"?

I plan to go with a 24" rim for my next ebike build...smallest diameter I can use a one cross lacing pattern.

Thanks for the help .

I used Sapim e-strong 12/13G spokes with single cross on my 24" rim. It's "OK" but I wouldn't do it again. I'd either go with 14G and washers, or get out the drill press and use the modified radial lacing, leaning more toward the latter.

Luckily the Grin spoke calculator supports paired flange holes.

 

[Bullfrog]

I used Sapim e-strong 12/13G spokes with single cross on my 24" rim. It's "OK" but I wouldn't do it again. I'd either go with 14G and washers, or get out the drill press and use the modified radial lacing, leaning more toward the latter.

Luckily the Grin spoke calculator supports paired flange holes.

What is modified radial lacing? I know what radial lacing is, just don't know exactly what the "modified" is supposed to indicate.
Thanks

 

[E-HP]

Radial lacing is like it sounds, with the spoke radial to the axle. Modified radial has offset flange holes, so even if the spoke is laced with no cross, the spokes themselves are slightly angled, which provides some of the strength benefits of a one cross, but without the sharp angle that makes single cross problematic when the hub/flange diameter is larger.
This is what my single cross looks like. The nipples have very little ability to angle themselves due to the rim eyelets. It's working, but ideally I'd have more tension, which I believe I can get with the modified radial lacing.

Paired hole modified radial lacing on the Grin calculator:

Online Spoke Calculator for Hubmotors and Ebikes

Our handy spoke length calculator allows for easy calculation of spoke length for custom builds - and is the only one of its kind to include paired spoke holes in the flange as is common with many large diameter hub motors. It also creates an automatic side view drawing of the laced wheel and...

ebikes.ca

For my rim, my thought is to line up a couple of spokes in a modified radial pattern, to the point where the spoke nipples won't present and issue, and then drill the flange to match once I determine the best offset.

@Bullfrog If you decide you want more volume for your 24" tires, I think I've tried most of the non-slick plus sized tires available. Here are my thoughts:

• Arrow Racing Prime Bite 24x2.75 - Aggressive knobs, but volume was not even close to what a 2.75" tire should be; best for offroad, not good for street.
• Mongoose Fat Tire 24x2.8/3 - Good volume/semi-fat, questionable construction. Mine blew out with a loud explosion when the wire bead separated from the carcass. I wouldn't trust these again.
• CST Fringe front 24x2.8 - Good on and off road, wears quickly. On the rear, the tire tread wore out in a few hundred miles. On the front, it's lasted a couple thousand and still has decent tread.
• Specialized Big Roller rear 24x2.8 - Best so far but discontinued and difficult to get. A couple thousand miles and the tread still look pretty new, traction is good on and off road. Knobs aren't too aggressive, but a little buzzy on pavement. I've been watching for more of these, and prices have been either really low or really high with shipping. I just ordered 3 of them, on sale for $15, which came to $55 with shipping. Otherwise, that seems to be the cost for one tire since they are getting rare. It was a fortunate find, so now I'm good for several thousands of miles.

There are other plus sized tires that are slick/street only, but I ride off road as much as on, so I need the knobs.

 

[Chalo]

What is "modified radial lacing"?

Radial lacing (no crosses) where either the hub holes or the rim holes aren't equally spaced. So the spokes don't cross, but they do make a lever arm for the hub to transmit torque.

 

[Bullfrog]

Radial lacing is like it sounds, with the spoke radial to the axle. Modified radial has offset flange holes, so even if the spoke is laced with no cross, the spokes themselves are slightly angled, which provides some of the strength benefits of a one cross, but without the sharp angle that makes single cross problematic when the hub/flange diameter is larger.
This is what my single cross looks like. The nipples have very little ability to angle themselves due to the rim eyelets. It's working, but ideally I'd have more tension, which I believe I can get with the modified radial lacing.

Paired hole modified radial lacing on the Grin calculator:

Online Spoke Calculator for Hubmotors and Ebikes

Our handy spoke length calculator allows for easy calculation of spoke length for custom builds - and is the only one of its kind to include paired spoke holes in the flange as is common with many large diameter hub motors. It also creates an automatic side view drawing of the laced wheel and...

ebikes.ca

For my rim, my thought is to line up a couple of spokes in a modified radial pattern, to the point where the spoke nipples won't present and issue, and then drill the flange to match once I determine the best offset.

@Bullfrog If you decide you want more volume for your 24" tires, I think I've tried most of the non-slick plus sized tires available. Here are my thoughts:

• Arrow Racing Prime Bite 24x2.75 - Aggressive knobs, but volume was not even close to what a 2.75" tire should be; best for offroad, not good for street.
• Mongoose Fat Tire 24x2.8/3 - Good volume/semi-fat, questionable construction. Mine blew out with a loud explosion when the wire bead separated from the carcass. I wouldn't trust these again.
• CST Fringe front 24x2.8 - Good on and off road, wears quickly. On the rear, the tire tread wore out in a few hundred miles. On the front, it's lasted a couple thousand and still has decent tread.
• Specialized Big Roller rear 24x2.8 - Best so far but discontinued and difficult to get. A couple thousand miles and the tread still look pretty new, traction is good on and off road. Knobs aren't too aggressive, but a little buzzy on pavement. I've been watching for more of these, and prices have been either really low or really high with shipping. I just ordered 3 of them, on sale for $15, which came to $55 with shipping. Otherwise, that seems to be the cost for one tire since they are getting rare. It was a fortunate find, so now I'm good for several thousands of miles.

There are other plus sized tires that are slick/street only, but I ride off road as much as on, so I need the knobs.

Radial lacing (no crosses) where either the hub holes or the rim holes aren't equally spaced. So the spokes don't cross, but they do make a lever arm for the hub to transmit torque.

Thanks guys.

Speaking of tires, I just posted a question on the Leaf thread....I am thinking about running either a Schwalbe Pick-Up 24x2.6" or a Maxxis Hookworm 24x2.5". I only ride my Leaf powered bike on the pavement. I had a Duro 26x3" tire explode on me recently so I don't think I'll be using them again. The Schwalbe I mentioned above is rated E-50 for ebike use...the 50 is KPH so about 31 mph. The Hookworm doesn't state whether it is ebike rated.

 

[Chalo]

I am thinking about running either a Schwalbe Pick-Up 24x2.6" or a Maxxis Hookworm 24x2.5". I only ride my Leaf powered bike on the pavement. I had a Duro 26x3" tire explode on me recently so I don't think I'll be using them again. The Schwalbe I mentioned above is rated E-50 for ebike use...the 50 is KPH so about 31 mph. The Hookworm doesn't state whether it is ebike rated.

Hookworm is good for a lot of weight (it's a popular pedicab tire), and for high speed. But Schwalbe Pick-Up is tougher, more puncture resistant, longer lasting, and capable of heavier loads. Hookworm is preferable when ride quality and handling are the most important factors.

Edit:
Duro is a crap tire manufacturer. They make interesting sizes and styles, but always with coarse terrible casings and thoughtless distribution of rubber. Innova and Wan Da (WD) are in the same category. And there are other even less memorable brands (e.g. Hang Zhou Rubber Factory, Chao Yang) that are just as nasty, but without the interesting sizes and styles.

 

[Bullfrog]

Hookworm is good for a lot of weight (it's a popular pedicab tire), and for high speed. But Schwalbe Pick-Up is tougher, more puncture resistant, longer lasting, and capable of heavier loads. Hookworm is preferable when ride quality and handling are the most important factors.

Edit:
Duro is a crap tire manufacturer. They make interesting sizes and styles, but always with coarse terrible casings and thoughtless distribution of rubber. Innova and Wan Da (WD) are in the same category. And there are other even less memorable brands (e.g. Hang Zhou Rubber Factory, Chao Yang) that are just as nasty, but without the interesting sizes and styles.

Thanks Chalo.

Duro....yep, I have experimentally proven they are crap. I plan to stick with Schwalbe and Maxxis for my future bicycle tire needs since they have always performed well for me.

Maybe I need to go with a Hookworm on the front and a Pick-Up on the rear.

 

[Chalo]

Maybe I need to go with a Hookworm on the front and a Pick-Up on the rear.

That's not a bad idea, if it gets you both the sturdiness you need and the steering feel you like.

EBC sells an EBC-branded tire made by Gumonder (GMD) of Taiwan, which they call "Rhino". It's 26x3.0" with double layer casing and 3mm breaker belt. That one is a very good choice for a heavy and powerful e-bike, if it fits in the frame/fork.

Electric Bike Company Rhino Tire - Shop - Electric Bike Company®

The Electric Bike Company® - Built in California Factory, Custom Design and Personalized Colors - Ships FULLY assembled.

electricbikecompany.com

 

[E-HP]

Hookworm is preferable when ride quality and handling are the most important factors.

How many miles will they last under normal riding? On the ride quality, how much is affected by tire pressure. I run around 35psi in my current tires, which provides some cushion, but it seems like that would be on the low side for the Hookworms. I've had those tires in my cart several times, but haven't pulled the trigger.

 

[Chalo]

How many miles will they last under normal riding?

What is this "normal riding" you speak of?

Hookworms are pretty long wearing as tires go, thicker in the tread rubber and with a more all-over tread than most. The compound is on the soft side for street tires, but harder than a lot of trials and MTB compounds. There are durometer markings on them as I recall, but I don't have one right here to look at.

As always: weight on the tire, speed, riding surface, powered/unpowered wheel, inflation pressure, and most of all riding and braking habits will dictate longevity. During the short time (couple weeks) I recently had a matched pair on my heavy 2kW+ e-bike, the rear started to show noticeable wear but the front looked pristine. Front was unpowered and loaded with a small fraction of the weight. Riding surfaces were mostly pockmarked, concrete splattered, thoroughly trashed-up bike lanes containing every kind of road hazard.

Pretty much any Schwalbe utility tire will have harder tread compound and longer life per mm thickness than Hookworm, but many of them are significantly thinner than Hookworm.

On the ride quality, how much is affected by tire pressure. I run around 35psi in my current tires, which provides some cushion, but it seems like that would be on the low side for the Hookworms. I've had those tires in my cart several times, but haven't pulled the trigger.

It's a flexible, sweet riding tire for its size and weight. You only need to use however much pressure it takes to keep it laterally stable on the rim and prevent pinch flats, which could be very very low depending on your setup. For your rim's sake as well as the tire's, I would avoid inflating higher than the sidewall rating-- 65psi I think? If you need that much pressure you may as well use a harder, less supple tire anyway.

 

[E-HP]

Hookworms are pretty long wearing as tires go, thicker in the tread rubber and with a more all-over tread than most. The compound is on the soft side for street tires, but harder than a lot of trials and MTB compounds.

It's a flexible, sweet riding tire for its size and weight. You only need to use however much pressure it takes to keep it laterally stable on the rim and prevent pinch flats, which could be very very low depending on your setup.

Thanks. Ordered, and should arrive early next week. I was thinking the weight might be heavier than my 24x2.8 MTB tires, but for this set up, since I'm just going to use them to have fun on pavement and enjoy the low rolling resistance, I'm only going to run tubes with FlatOut and the tires. My current setup has two extra tubes inside of the tire, but after hitting that 3" wood screw, that basically went straight though the tire, 4 layers of tube and the rim tape, but luckily not the rim, I figure I'll just take my chances. Plus I'm not sure how long I can have enough fun riding on pavement, before I have to switch them out.

 

[amberwolf]

Thanks guys.

Speaking of tires, I just posted a question on the Leaf thread....I am thinking about running either a Schwalbe Pick-Up 24x2.6" or a Maxxis Hookworm 24x2.5". I only ride my Leaf powered bike on the pavement. I had a Duro 26x3" tire explode on me recently so I don't think I'll be using them again. The Schwalbe I mentioned above is rated E-50 for ebike use...the 50 is KPH so about 31 mph. The Hookworm doesn't state whether it is ebike rated.

When I used to use 24" on CrazyBike2, I used generic clones of the Hookworm and they worked pretty well. Was very sticky for traction (I don't mind sacrificing lifespan for that), and was thick enough to help with flat prevention, along with my other usual layering. They're what I rode on in the SpookyTooth "Death Races" down on the kart track in Tucson back then.

I think I had one of the real HW on there and it was better.

 

[Chalo]

I used generic clones of the Hookworm

For background: Cheng Shin Tire markets three brands of bicycle tires. Premium brand is Maxxis. Value brand is CST. Economy brand is Cheng Shin.

The value-branded version of Maxxis Hookworm is the CST Cyclops. It's less substantial, a little thinner in the tread rubber, but otherwise very similar. They label the fatty Cyclops as 2.4" width as compared to the Hookworm's nominal 2.5", which might accurately reflect the extra sidewall beef in Hookworm.

I don't know whether this model is the one AW is talking about, but if you want a budget Hookworm, look for CST Cyclops.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

what I rode on in the SpookyTooth "Death Races" down on the kart track in Tucson back then

Speaking of non-sequiters, my mind persists in attempting to envision AW racing on his trike in this accessorized with n+1 enormous dogs.

I would probably get out of the way.

 

[amberwolf]

The trike dog racing was more like this:


The actual racing was like this:

Tucson Death Race 2011 roll call. Results on page 1

I know that the Nano Lipo would be best, but I can't get that stuff cheap enough to sponsor a racer! Oh well. Anyway, it's not at all certain that I will be even able to do that. I'm just throwing it out there so that you can tell me what size to make the packs IF I can get enough. IF...

endless-sphere.com

slid out on hair pin at far left in late 2010 cuz my tire touched the dirt at edge of track

then slid out on hairpin in 2011 but this time was the "road snakes" asphalt repair patches; this one hurt

there used to be vids on youtube but fairracing31 has made them all private.



As it happens I was digging those hookworm clones out tonight to give to a co-worker whose tire shredded itself earlier this week, since I don't have anything using 24" wheels nowadays, so here's some pics. One tire (bottom in the stack pic) has no brand name, but is otherwise identical to the other two that say KING WHEEL on them. The inside carcass thread pic is of the very worn no-name one.

 

[Bullfrog]

Radial lacing (no crosses) where either the hub holes or the rim holes aren't equally spaced. So the spokes don't cross, but they do make a lever arm for the hub to transmit torque.

Chalo or anybody that is willing to guesstimate...how much difference do you need between the Effective Rim Diameter (ERD) and the spoke circle diameter on the motor to be able to use a one cross lacing pattern?

I know a lot of it is driven by your experience and how much patience you have .

My rational for asking is I'd like to lace a Leaf motor in either a 20" or a 24" rim and use a one cross pattern...Leaf shows their motor laced in a 24" rim with a one cross but they show a Radial/Modified Radial pattern for a 20" rim.

Please specify whether you are talking about the differences in the radius or the differences in the diameter.

 

[E-HP]

Does your question specify eyeleted rims? And without modifying the spoke holes, correct?

 

[E-HP]

Radial lacing (no crosses) where either the hub holes or the rim holes aren't equally spaced. So the spokes don't cross, but they do make a lever arm for the hub to transmit torque.

I saw a post somewhere that said a paired hole radial lace on a smaller (e.g. 20”-24”) rim has a similar spoke angle as a double cross lace on a 29” rim, and similar strength. Any thought on whether that is credible?

 

[Chalo]

I saw a post somewhere that said a paired hole radial lace on a smaller (e.g. 20”-24”) rim has a similar spoke angle as a double cross lace on a 29” rim, and similar strength. Any thought on whether that is credible?

Yes it's possible, but it depends on multiple factors. If you're talking about the same hub in both cases, then no, that's not geometrically possible. But we know that a traditional 44mm rear hub flange can be laced cross-2 and is adequate to transmit drive and braking torque. To have the same size lever arm, a small rim with a large hub could have an amount of paired hole offset that is hardly even perceptible.

To visualize the issue, you can imagine lines continuing along the spokes past the hub axle. The distance from the axle center where these lines pass closest is the lever arm. If this distance is at least 20mm, then the wheel is good to transmit at least as much torque as a traditional bike wheel can.

 

[E-HP]

Thanks. Ordered, and should arrive early next week. I was thinking the weight might be heavier than my 24x2.8 MTB tires, but for this set up, since I'm just going to use them to have fun on pavement and enjoy the low rolling resistance, I'm only going to run tubes with FlatOut and the tires. My current setup has two extra tubes inside of the tire, but after hitting that 3" wood screw, that basically went straight though the tire, 4 layers of tube and the rim tape, but luckily not the rim, I figure I'll just take my chances. Plus I'm not sure how long I can have enough fun riding on pavement, before I have to switch them out.

Hookworms arrived early, and my Statorade arrive yesterday, so now I’m in high gear to get my maintenance done so I can try out the tires! Question for Chalo, I realized all of my extra tubes are for 1.75”-3.0” tires. Any issues using them for the 2.5” hookworms?