I am currently a disgruntled Bionx owner. I find your discussion interesting. I agree that we paid way too much for the Bionx kit. And I am having trouble to boot. First the motor fritzed out and I sent it back. Bionx Canada had it for over a month. Now the darn thing won't turn on. I have ridden it maybe 10x since the Canadian fix. Controller just won't come on. Battery is charged. I think the little automatic cuttoff switch in the battery case is the culprit. There are a zillion circuits inside there. This ain't no robust piece of gear that can be strapped to a bike I am afraid. NYCewheels promptly sent me a new controller, bless them. But I guess I will have to send something else back and wait another month. I sure am not getting in the electric commuting like I imagined. I could have purchased a hell of a lot of gasoline for my Prius for the pricetag of the Bionx. How are we going to change the world if an electric bike kit cost over $1000? Good grief. Wish I had saved my money and bought a carbon fiber racing bike for my commute to my job.
Bionx PL500HS, Dahon MU SL, Schlumpf High Speed Drive
- Thread starter dennis
- Start date
DahonElectric
100 W
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2008
- Messages
- 149
I too had problems with my new Bionx system as well. Actually, it had 700km on it before it started failing. The latest problem deals with the battery box. I saw the innards of the battery box (opened up by my dealer) and suffice to say, the design and execution (soldering wise) is rather poor by today's high standards. As a veteran of 20+ years in the electronics industry, I'm not sure if Bionx is a ISO 90001 company, but their soldering technique definitely NEEDS BETTER improvement. My battery box charging circuit was damaged due to continued road vibration and one of the wires came loose. Looking at the circuits, it looks as though it's been soldered by a year 10 electronics student!
I had voiced my concerns to Bionx themselves via their 1-800 number, but it seemed that arrogant frenchy attitude of "We are better than you and take no constructive advise attitude" is at best troubling. At least the Japanese or the Chinese do listen sometimes and improve upon their designs. The battery box is at best not a water proof design (despite their claim as they don't have an IPX rating) as it is too well exposed and problems may arise if moisture ever forms on the circuit board inside the box. My dealer had been excellent in resolving my problems pronto, including the latest problems. I really hope Bionx redesigns the battery box more robustly to withstand the constant vibration induced by road imperfections. And no, we don't have silky smooth roads where I commute..
Best regards..
I had voiced my concerns to Bionx themselves via their 1-800 number, but it seemed that arrogant frenchy attitude of "We are better than you and take no constructive advise attitude" is at best troubling. At least the Japanese or the Chinese do listen sometimes and improve upon their designs. The battery box is at best not a water proof design (despite their claim as they don't have an IPX rating) as it is too well exposed and problems may arise if moisture ever forms on the circuit board inside the box. My dealer had been excellent in resolving my problems pronto, including the latest problems. I really hope Bionx redesigns the battery box more robustly to withstand the constant vibration induced by road imperfections. And no, we don't have silky smooth roads where I commute..
Best regards..
dennis
10 W
Stryker1 said:
820 total miles on the odometer so far for the PL500HS kit and the Schlumpf HS drive has had no problems. The front suspension pantour hubs elastomers needs replacement. I will be replacing the entire front wheel and installing big apple tires to lower the road vibrations. I'm sure DahonElectric knows first hand the vibrations I am referring to.
The Bionx PL500HS kit has had no problems so far. My 2.5 yr old LiMn spare battery from the prior PL350 kit is now only capable of holding a little less than 1/2 a charge. I am working on an aftermarket battery upgrade. If it works, I will give the full performance details when it is completed.
dennis
10 W
DahonElectric said:
I agree with DahonElectric. The Bionx electronics are fragile. During the first few months of owning the original PL350 kit, I took a hard spill when I made a turn on a sandy spot on the bike path and dropped the bike. I had to replace the brake levers since the right brake lever was bent beyond repair. The consol still worked but some of the numbers were illegible and the battery electronics were slightly damaged because regen no longer worked. At that point, I just purchased an extra battery so I can keep testing the kit. Then a year later, the wheel worked out of the drop out and damaged the wires at the motor which caused a short in the wiring and blew the fuse in the battery ( note: I always check the nuts before each ride now ), that's when I purchased the new PL500HS kit......
I have a PL350 which I have had for a little over 2 months and over 700 miles and love it. My only complaint is I can only get about 50 miles out of the battery and that is really streaching it. I would like to get about 80-90 miles with pedal assist or 40-50 miles pulling a trailer. If you find an after market battery upgrade I would like to know.
dennis
10 W
I found an electric bicycle kit dealer that was willing to spend the time to give this project a go. He is still working on it. This project is something I am anxiously waiting to test. Imagine a 36v LiFEPO4 40ah battery ...the full throttle range will bring miles, miles, miles and miles...... of smiles...
battery project info posted by Ken of itselectric...http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7813 .
battery project info posted by Ken of itselectric...http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7813 .
treknavigator
10 µW
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2008
- Messages
- 5
i have been a dealer of the bion x product for 3 years i need to have more info as to where i would purchase the kits please reply if you will directly to sanderskd@accesscomm.ca i thank you
treknavigator
10 µW
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2008
- Messages
- 5
jboss said:
treknavigator
10 µW
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2008
- Messages
- 5
IF THERE IS A CHEAPER ACCESS TO THIS PRODUCT OTHER THAN IN CANADA PLEASE DIRECT ME TO IT AS I AM A DEALER CONTACT sanderskd@accesscomm.ca
treknavigator
10 µW
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2008
- Messages
- 5
ANY BODY THAT THINKS THAT BIONX IS MADE IN INDONISIA CONTACT THE BION x TEAM AND ASK FOR A TOUR OF THE PLANT IN AURORA ONTARIO
Don't mean to hijack this thread to talk about the 350 PL, but this is where the discussion seems to be going on.
I've had my kit on my bike for 10 months now. I have just over 3000 miles on it. I rode it through a very hard winter here in New Jersey. The bike has performed flawlessly other than about three times when I hit a bump. In those cases, the system quit responding and I had to disconnect and reconnect the controller to get it to work again. I have had any crashes with the bike to test the true ruggedness of it, but it definitely seems able to handle weather.
I chose this kit after going to NyceWheels and trying out all the different ebikes. What sold me on the Bionx was the torque sensing. This approach makes the electric assist totally transparent to the rider. All the others had issues, I felt. Either you had to control it all the time via a throttle or they had automatic approaches that just didn't work as well. I believe one of the Ezee bikes I tried had an automatic system that added assist based on your measured speed and acceleration. I found this approach too "surge-y" .
I also found the kit to look cleaner on the bike than other available kits.
Speed - without pedaling, on flats with no wind, it can take me to right around 20 mph. That's with tires at 80 psi. The assist, in the default programming, also stops at 20 mph. But even with the program modified to always provide power, you can't really get much more than 23 mph. And it really drains the batteries to run it this way. So I have the programming returned to the factory state. The only thing I dislike about that is that when you do have a tail wind or a slight downhill slope, you quickly get up to 20 mph. But when the assist cuts out it feels like a tire suddenly went flat. I'd like the cut out to be smoother.
Regarding speed - you really are going to be limited if you don't have a big gear. My large chain ring is 48 and the smallest gear on my freewheel is 11 teeth. So I can cruise with this up to about 23 mph. But 11 tooth freewheels are no longer made, afaik. I have one more freewheel left with this configuration. After than, I'm probably going to have to use a 13 tooth one. So unless you have a monster chain ring, this is going to be an issue. The internal -geared hub may be the only good solution.
Price - you can certainly get hub motors for a lot cheaper than the Bionx. However, I found the Bionx to be the lightest one out there for a non-geared system. Also, the wheel itself is very ruggedly built. But a lot of the cost is going to be for the lithium batteries.
That's the one area I have a concern about Bionx's system. I believe I still have full range after nearly a year. It fell during cold weather but seems to be picking up again as it warms up. I hope I actually get 500 cycles out of it. That would translate to about 15,000 miles which would take me 4-5 years to use. But several people have argued that these batteries age rather quickly and that you get only 3 years on them regardless of the cycles. I hope that is not true.
I dislike the fact that to replace the Bionx battery you have to replace the whole unit associated with the batteries. That makes the cost pretty high, close to $1000. I'd like a cheaper approach, although I am somewhat concerned about the safety of using other lithium batteries in the system. I have a feeling that Bionx chose the LiMn technology because of its high safety. Some of the other lithium technologies don't seem as safe. But I'm still interested in those who have successfully refreshed the battery unit with new lithium batteries. It's going to be a lot cheaper to buy just the batteries and replace them in the unit.
I've had my kit on my bike for 10 months now. I have just over 3000 miles on it. I rode it through a very hard winter here in New Jersey. The bike has performed flawlessly other than about three times when I hit a bump. In those cases, the system quit responding and I had to disconnect and reconnect the controller to get it to work again. I have had any crashes with the bike to test the true ruggedness of it, but it definitely seems able to handle weather.
I chose this kit after going to NyceWheels and trying out all the different ebikes. What sold me on the Bionx was the torque sensing. This approach makes the electric assist totally transparent to the rider. All the others had issues, I felt. Either you had to control it all the time via a throttle or they had automatic approaches that just didn't work as well. I believe one of the Ezee bikes I tried had an automatic system that added assist based on your measured speed and acceleration. I found this approach too "surge-y" .
I also found the kit to look cleaner on the bike than other available kits.
Speed - without pedaling, on flats with no wind, it can take me to right around 20 mph. That's with tires at 80 psi. The assist, in the default programming, also stops at 20 mph. But even with the program modified to always provide power, you can't really get much more than 23 mph. And it really drains the batteries to run it this way. So I have the programming returned to the factory state. The only thing I dislike about that is that when you do have a tail wind or a slight downhill slope, you quickly get up to 20 mph. But when the assist cuts out it feels like a tire suddenly went flat. I'd like the cut out to be smoother.
Regarding speed - you really are going to be limited if you don't have a big gear. My large chain ring is 48 and the smallest gear on my freewheel is 11 teeth. So I can cruise with this up to about 23 mph. But 11 tooth freewheels are no longer made, afaik. I have one more freewheel left with this configuration. After than, I'm probably going to have to use a 13 tooth one. So unless you have a monster chain ring, this is going to be an issue. The internal -geared hub may be the only good solution.
Price - you can certainly get hub motors for a lot cheaper than the Bionx. However, I found the Bionx to be the lightest one out there for a non-geared system. Also, the wheel itself is very ruggedly built. But a lot of the cost is going to be for the lithium batteries.
That's the one area I have a concern about Bionx's system. I believe I still have full range after nearly a year. It fell during cold weather but seems to be picking up again as it warms up. I hope I actually get 500 cycles out of it. That would translate to about 15,000 miles which would take me 4-5 years to use. But several people have argued that these batteries age rather quickly and that you get only 3 years on them regardless of the cycles. I hope that is not true.
I dislike the fact that to replace the Bionx battery you have to replace the whole unit associated with the batteries. That makes the cost pretty high, close to $1000. I'd like a cheaper approach, although I am somewhat concerned about the safety of using other lithium batteries in the system. I have a feeling that Bionx chose the LiMn technology because of its high safety. Some of the other lithium technologies don't seem as safe. But I'm still interested in those who have successfully refreshed the battery unit with new lithium batteries. It's going to be a lot cheaper to buy just the batteries and replace them in the unit.
dennis
10 W
Well, the after market battery experiment did not work out unfortunately. When I received the rebuilt battery box and 4 LiFePO4 batteries, I placed the 4 batteries in a backpack ( a very heavy back pack by the way) for a long test ride. Everything was fine for the first 15 miles of uphill & flat roads. But, when I hit a steep down hill section for some reason the regen voltage fried the board and left me with a regular pedal bicycle. I limped home on pedal power with that heavy back pack attached to my achy breaky back :lol: ...end of experiment.
1800vtx
100 W
dennis said:
That's too bad. Wonder what it could have been in the regen department to make it go deep fried. Sounds like not enough voltage/amp protection built in on that end of things. You should have your electronics expert take a look at the the box and have him do a little troubleshooting. Give it another go once that's been tracked down :wink:
cyclepete said:
Hi,
I'm new to this forum as well as to e-bikes and pedelecs. I just tried a Whisper for a quick spin and fell in love with the concept. I am at the moment seriously considering getting the BioniX 350 kit in the US and bring it with me to Europe, as it seems to be what I am looking for. I am trying to find out as much as I can about it before I make the final desicion. From cyclepete's posting it seems that he's got a 350 front wheel hub motor. I have seen it advertized at a vendors web pages, but I have yet to see it mentioned on BionX's own web site, so I got a bit puzzled. I was under the impression that the BoinX kits were rear hub only.
From what I have understood about the kit it responds to your pedalling by measuring the strain on the axle bolt put on it by the pull of the chain. This is done by means of a torque measuring device in the axle bolt. The output from the device is then read by the electronics residing in the hub. The more torque put on the axle bolt the more output from the hub motor. Everything is built as one complete unit with only the battery and the console as external devices. So far so good.
But evidently there are front hub configurations out there. How do they measure the torque when the unit is put in the front wheel? Do they separate the unit and put the axle bolt from the hub in the rear axle and run cables through it to the front hub electronics? I hope cyclepete or someone else here can help me finding the answer to this as it puzzles me. I would not mind having a front wheel configuration in the winter either. Having 2 wheel drive during winter with snow and ice conditions may be a good ting.
Kind regards.
DahonElectric
100 W
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2008
- Messages
- 149
Boreas,
The front wheel configuration is available, but it is in a throttle assist system only like an eZee or a 9C. If you want front, go for an eZee or a 9C with a Cycle Analyst as they are a more cost effective system wise compared to the Bionx. However, the Bionx strain gauge system works only with the rear hub setup because it needs the chain to measure the amount of pedal power the rider puts out and then multiply it for a factor you set in the computer.
The PL350 is a good system -- I have the P250 and I like it because it gets you to pedal the bike full time. Whereas with my 9C system, it doesn't because the torque and the speed of the bike is too strong and fast to make no sense at all pedaling.
DE.
The front wheel configuration is available, but it is in a throttle assist system only like an eZee or a 9C. If you want front, go for an eZee or a 9C with a Cycle Analyst as they are a more cost effective system wise compared to the Bionx. However, the Bionx strain gauge system works only with the rear hub setup because it needs the chain to measure the amount of pedal power the rider puts out and then multiply it for a factor you set in the computer.
The PL350 is a good system -- I have the P250 and I like it because it gets you to pedal the bike full time. Whereas with my 9C system, it doesn't because the torque and the speed of the bike is too strong and fast to make no sense at all pedaling.
DE.
deerfencer
100 mW
Contrary to the crank posting re overseas sources, Optibikes are handmade in Boulder CO. Go to the Opti website and look for the video showing the frames being built in house. Interesting process that I doubt even the Chinese would bother replicating as it appears very time consuming.
For those that have returned their Bionx for service: do they require that you return the entire unit? Hub, controller and battery pack? I'm having an issue where the throttle works, but the various assistance levels do not engage when pedalling. thanks.
dennis
10 W
7bobw said:
Ken from Power in Motion sent me a rebuilt battery box last month with the regen disabled. (the battery board was from my first PL350 Bionx kit that did not regen after a spill, with the regen disabled the after market batteries worked great.
Here is another battery hack I found from...reply#11 by kosherrev on 09/06/2009 http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5360-bionx-battery-replacement
I finally got a chance to take it for a ride with the 4 x 10Ah LiFePO4 batteries placed in a back breaking backpack. I hooked them up to a Watts Up meter and here are the results of the 1 hr 55 min 46 mile test ride that traveled through the hills of Palos Verdes, California and the beach cities via the Strand.
Bike & motor about 37 lbs, batteries about 28 lbs
Total weight of bike & rider and batteries about 215lbs
top downhill speed about 40mph
slowest steep hill climb speed about 7 to 8mph (low torque motor requires a lot of pedal input to keep the motor spinning)
fastest moderate grade hill climb speed about 21mph with a lot of pedal effort
top speed on the flats about 28mph with a lot of pedal effort, a get your ass moving human/electric hybrid
throttle only speed on the flats from 22 to 26mph
average speed about 20mph
starting voltage 40V
ending voltage 39.49V
voltage sag 37.32Vm
used 17.143Ah
992.5Wp, 659.3Wh, 25.95Ap
Blew past all lycra clad roadies
except for one roadie that was able to keep pace and draft me for about 1/6 of a mile at 25-28mph on the flats ...on the hilly section, did not encounter any drafters.at the end of the ride, legs like jello, due to non- stop pedaling up & down hills with the Schlumpf HS drive.
dennis
10 W
Range test LiFEPO4 38.4V 10Ah x 4 battery packs in parallel.
Hybrid pedal/motor range, 82.1 miles @ average speed about 21.3 mph, start 40.8V, below 36V (bms worked flawlessley and cut off power) lost all watts up meter data, pedaled home 2.4 miles partially assisted. total miles 84.5 miles, total run time about 3 hrs 27 mins.
Hybrid pedal/motor range, 82.1 miles @ average speed about 21.3 mph, start 40.8V, below 36V (bms worked flawlessley and cut off power) lost all watts up meter data, pedaled home 2.4 miles partially assisted. total miles 84.5 miles, total run time about 3 hrs 27 mins.
dennis
10 W
You're welcome, I'm happy to contribute my 1/2 cent to this helpful open source forum.
The battery is a real drag to carry but I hope in the near future, due to the push for electric automobiles, some manufacturer will make a new high capacity battery that will keep me from breaking my achy breaky back :lol: ...who knows, maybe a hybrid ultracapacitor battery that can accept a regen charge without frying the battery control board...
Until then I have one of these on order for my normal pedal mountain bike and the electrified Dahon Mu SL. [youtube]RF7FMuef-Og[/youtube]
The battery is a real drag to carry but I hope in the near future, due to the push for electric automobiles, some manufacturer will make a new high capacity battery that will keep me from breaking my achy breaky back :lol: ...who knows, maybe a hybrid ultracapacitor battery that can accept a regen charge without frying the battery control board...
Until then I have one of these on order for my normal pedal mountain bike and the electrified Dahon Mu SL. [youtube]RF7FMuef-Og[/youtube]
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