BionX Questions - Regeneration & Battery Cycles

Canis Lupus said:
I was tempted to post some pictures of the charger to show the lack of warning about the voltage switch and also how well the switch is concealed and small the voltage numbering is on the back, but I couldn't be bothered with you. You keep misinterpreting my posts for your own personal, and no doubt, emotional reasons. I doubt even a photo will satisfy your scepticism. I had to put on my glasses and position the back of the charger in good light to even make out the numbering on the switch. Even then, it wasn't obvious it was a switch until I played around with it a bit. As I stated in my previous post, I was alerted to the issue of voltage, checked the specs written and it seemed ok. I don't know why you are writing something as condescending as "which should have been an immediate tip off to check the voltage setting", when I have already made it clear it was something I thought of prior to connecting it.

I have chargers and transformers for other electrical items which are rated for the same range of voltage. They do not make use of a switch.
Here are the pictures you would not post for me, of the back of the charger where the voltage switch is located; the first picture is set in the 115V position, and the second in the 230V position.

For anyone else having difficulty finding the switch, or not willing to put on their glasses, it is the red thing in the middle. :wink:

-- Alan
BionxCharger1.jpgBionxCharger2.jpg
 
Canis Lupus said:
Anyone who believes BionX's claims without question is a little foolish IMO. It is obvious they gouge on price at every opportunity and that should be "an immediate tip off" to anyone.
You continue with these claims that I disagree with, but ridicule me when I disagree, and find it offensive than my aim is not trying to help you. I am just trying to put a more balanced perspective on the Bionx product in this Bionx-trashing thread. I am a Bionx customer, and no other connections to the company or any of its dealers. With that said, I have yet to find a claim on Bionx's web site that is not entirely consistent with my Bionx experience. I can't say that about very many companies.

In case anyone is interested in my experience, I bought my PL350 3rd gen (I think it's gen 3) system in Oct '08 from http://www.birdrv.com (Denver) during a $100 off sale, paying $1550, including presetting controller values to my needs, checking truing on the spokes, charging the battery with the shipped charger verifying everything is in great order, and generally great customer support before and after the sale. Today, the 4th gen improved system is the same price. My system now has over 4000 miles on it and is performing the same as when it was new. I have had no failures other than the display freeze issue I discussed earlier.

The issue with BionX is whether some of the extra features offered are worth the incredible mark-up, ...
In regard to BionX's pricing, it is interesting to observe there appears to be no economies of scale occurring, not at this stage at least. The latest system is priced at $2000, and the prices of their lesser systems remain unaltered.
How much did you pay for your Bionx system new, not including shipping or other dealer accessories added? Do you have the 3rd generation or 4th generation system? What country are you in, and where is your dealer located? You said yours was shipped from another country; are there no dealers in your area, and if there are, why did you go non-locally to buy? I'm trying to figure out if you really got a new Bionx system from a reputable dealer, or if perhaps, your Bionx problems are really your dealer problems, even if they don't appear that way to you (hey, maybe I'm not the only one in denial here!).

-- Alan
 
alan said:
Here are the pictures you would not post for me, of the back of the charger where the voltage switch is located; the first picture is set in the 115V position, and the second in the 230V position.

For anyone else having difficulty finding the switch, or not willing to put on their glasses, it is the red thing in the middle. :wink:

-- Alan
View attachment 1

Alan, I suggest you actually read my previous posts to answer the questions you have asked. The information has been posted previously for the most part.

You can post as many close up photos of your BionX charger as you like. Thanks for saving me the trouble but that's not my charger seen under normal circustances. For me to take a photo as clear as that indoors I would need my camera set to macro while using a flash, the result of which would exceed my eyesight's vision under normal circumstances. As my post implies, if you are alerted to the switch, as I was eventually, it can be detected without a problem. Correct me if I am wrong, you stated your charger came with a warning on it about the voltage. That must have been of great assistance to you, but yours was probably set on your local voltage in any case - I'd hazard a guess. Mine didn't. Once you know or are made aware of the switch's existence, then it isn't hard to find or realise it is a switch. Gee, even I did!

What your photos fail to replicate is what it looks like under normal inside lighting conditions, from a distance which is normal to hold objects, through the eyes of normal consumers who have not been made aware of its existence. Admittedly, although I have always had good eyesight, at 47, I am beginning to find it more and more difficult to focus on small objects at close quarters - there is nothing exceptional about me in that respect at my age. I'm right on schedule in this ageing characteristic. I had no problem reading what material was provided to me, the User Guide, without glasses, but it mentioned nothing about the switch.

The key to it though, and what your photos don't show, is the lack of warning either on the charger or anywhere else in the information provided to me. Also, your photos don't show other chargers and transformers I have, which cope with the voltage range for both US and Europe without the need to switch between voltages. Your whole tone is one of denial and distortion. If people didn't have positive experiences of BionX, I wouldn't have purchased it. Despite my present problems, I still have a few good words to say about the BionX system. I've read many good reviews of the product, some it not much more than the uncritical regurgitation of the company's advertising and promotions material, others of a more independent nature. But simply because there are good experiences of a product, doesn't mean there aren't bad versions of the same product in some form or other, which possess in one form or another, some oversight that if not made could have avoided problems.

I'm very glad your experience of BioinX is positive - for several reasons. One of which is I don't wish any misfortune upon you. I'm also glad you are posting about it because I look forward to experiencing the same thing as you eventually, but this does not mean that people cannot experience valid shortcomings in the product, or criticise it, under different circumstances which you've experienced. Your whole tone seems to want to deny any bad experience, any valid criticism, to the extent that you are willing to wilfully misconstrue, distort, omit, even make up what you believe are facts about my situation. By all means ask questions seeking clarification, but please quit with the fabrications and all important omissions of fact I have posted.

It is possible to post about your positive experiences without the implication of denying another person's negative ones and the validity of the reasons which those criticisms are based upon. The problems I've had with the motor are as much my fault as anyone's, probably more. I buggered up the installation and if I was more experienced in bike maintenance, I would have been alerted to a couple of problems before proceeding further once I spotted a problem. Upon proceeding further, one thing led to another, resulting in some minor wiring damage to the motor. I don't believe it will be difficult to fix, but it will mean money and time wasted, which is certainly a source of frustration for me. It will probably mean another 5-6 weeks before I get the system operational. Instructions would have helped at first instance, and when I did email away for more information and assistance, a reply was not forthcoming. That really wasn't anyone's fault for reasons too detailed to explain here, but I should have waited longer before proceeding. So, in relation to the motor's problems, I don't mind baring responsibility. I fully expect to be paying for postage charges to have it fixed, plus any parts and probably labour in fixing the problem. The charger is a different story.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Returning to the issue of the use of a freewheel, here is what was sent to me by someone extremely experienced and helpful from ICE. All emphases is mine, the discussion arises from my confusion concerning the term "freewheel" and my desire to maintain the more powerful gears I have presently as supplied by ICE on my 20" rear wheel drive, while using the BionX system.

Hi Chris

You are not the only one who is confused. The explanation is largely historical

Freewheels screw on to the hub. Technically, the freewheel bit is the body, with the pawls and bearings in it, and the cogs are mounted onto this. Many years ago, you could buy the cogs as separate items to make up the ratios you wanted. Interchangeable/replaceable cogs went out of fashion (there wasn't that many unique, usable combinations and the prices for complete units dropped) , so the complete unit became known as a freewheel.

The technical shortcomings of freewheels became apparent as the number of cogs grew. The bearings for the hub are located near the base of the freewheel thread leaving a long length of unsupported axle, and the freewheel cogs and bearings are basically cantilevered out over this. This works fine for 5 and 6 speeds, but 7 and 8 speeds resulted in an increased number of broken axles and prematurely worn bearings, particularly on mountain bikes. Also, the standard sizes didn't allow a small cog of less than about 12-13 teeth, due to the diameter of the outboard freewheel bearings.

Shimano then came out with the freehub system. In this system, the ratchet pawls and bearings are essentially bolted to the hub, and the drive side hub bearings are located in the freehub body itself. This puts them as far outboard as possible, where they belong. As it was a completely new system, the bearings were sized to allow an 11 tooth small cog (meant to work with smaller chainrings for a overall lighter system). The new standard belongs to Shimano, and (as far as I am aware) the spline pattern on the outside of the freehub body is patented and hub manufactures have to pay royalties to Shimano to use it. I was told that this is why most low-end bikes, Chinese bikes, and electric drives still use the old public-domain screw-on freewheel system. Creatures of habit that we are, the new system is still commonly referred to as a freewheel. I also suspect that many people that write the advert copy aren't necessarily well acquainted with the technical details. It's not really their fault; your average 20-something bike mechanic would rarely see a bike with a multi-speed freewheel, whereas I learned all about bicycles before freehubs existed.

To tell the difference isn't all that hard once you know what you are looking for. If the advert is labelled "cassette" then it is almost certain to be a cassette to fit a freehub; I'm not aware of the term cassette being used in the days before freehubs (the usual term then was 'cluster'). If it offers an 11 tooth small cog, it will be a cassette, not a freewheel. Next you need to look at the picture of the item. I've attached 2 pictures. On the cassette, notice the central lockring (black in this case, but sometimes silver too) . It has a 12 tooth spline for the lockring tool, and you can usually see the locking serrations around the edge of it. In this picture you can also see the freehub splines down the hole in the middle. Now compare this with the freewheel picture. The splines are shallow and extend deep into the freewheel body, there is a larger centre to the freewheel to allow for the size of the outboard bearings, and the bearing race can usually be seen (most of them have some sort of feature to engage a tool, in this photo there are two holes that work with a pin spanner).

That's the basics of what you need to know. It does get more involved: your Capreo freehub system has a smaller outer end and the bearing moved slightly inboard to accomodate a 9 and 10 tooth cog, the 11-34 discontinued Shimano freewheel had small outboard bearings and a smaller removal tool, 9 speed freewheels are very rare and have to be much better built because of the loads imposed on them by their extra depth.

If the Bionx guy can supply a 9 speed Sunrace freewheel, that's what I'd go for.
[/quote]

The best I can do in terms of maintaining power in the gearing is an 11 tooth rear gear, which means I lose the 9 and 10 teeth gears I have. I spinout at about 35km, even with the present set-up, the 20" wheel being partly to blame for this. As stated in a previous post, this has prompted me to buy the Schlumpf High-Speed Drive from Utah trikes, which should come close to giving me greater power than I have now, but still retaining the low gear for mountain climbs. I don't mind this expense, it simplifies the whole gearing situation because changing between 27 gears constantly, with many overlapping, drove me a little crazy on tour. No sooner were you in a gear than one needed to change again. I found wobble on a trike to be an issue when your cadence gets high.

Btw: If you own a trike, or are thinking about buying one, I can't speak too highly of Utah Trikes and their site. ICE is also another option. Both organisations love their work and show a commitment far beyond just commercial considerations. Also, if you like trikes or simply touring you might enjoy a youtube video or two I have posted:

[youtube]4lp_891i2a8[/youtube]
 
Canis Lupus said:
Alan, I suggest you actually read my previous posts to answer the questions you have asked. The information has been posted previously for the most part.
You say below you are willing to answer my questions, but above say you have already answered them. I don’t see that you have answered any of the questions of my previous post. Who was your dealer? Why did you choose to cross country lines to purchase from that dealer? How much did you pay for your PL350, and what did the extension cable end up costing you (without shipping and taxes, please)?

I’m wondering why your dealer did not set you up well, and why you didn’t get the same documentation that I did. Perhaps your system is older, and Bionx got it together before I got mine? You say you purchased your system a week ago per your post dated November 13, 2009 (following your October 13 post where it seems you did hadn’t yet decided to go with a Bionx system). Did you perhaps get a used system? If so, how old is it? I can’t believe Bionx reduced documentation and product quality in the year since I got mine! What version system did you get? It looks like you ordered a Bionx system from the US, and had it shipped to Greece. Why didn’t you choose one of the closer dealers in Switzerland or France or other European country? Do you live in the US, and were just traveling in Greece when you decided to electrify your trike, figuring a local to home dealer would be best?

You can post as many close up photos of your BionX charger as you like. Thanks for saving me the trouble but that's not my charger seen under normal circustances. For me to take a photo as clear as that indoors I would need my camera set to macro while using a flash, the result of which would exceed my eyesight's vision under normal circumstances.
You are correct about the macro and flash use of my pocket camera. I made sure the AC cord/socket was in the photo so it would be easy to judge scale, and then I tried to scale the pixels so that most browsers would render near actual size, but that varies by browser/display/etc. Other than the crop and resize, the only other editing of the photos was a few degree rotation (straighten) on one where I held the camera cocked a bit when I took the photo.

I'm very glad your experience of BioinX is positive - for several reasons. One of which is I don't wish any misfortune upon you. I'm also glad you are posting about it because I look forward to experiencing the same thing as you eventually, but this does not mean that people cannot experience valid shortcomings in the product, or criticise it, under different circumstances which you've experienced. Your whole tone seems to want to deny any bad experience, any valid criticism, to the extent that you are willing to wilfully misconstrue, distort, omit, even make up what you believe are facts about my situation. By all means ask questions seeking clarification, but please quit with the fabrications and all important omissions of fact I have posted.
You posts from Nov 14 on were heavily dissing Bionx, and my reply was only talking positive about my Bionx experience in an effort to add balance to a clearly emotionally charged rant on the company. Then you dissed me for not helping you. Now you are telling me that I am lying and covering up something, and I have no idea what you are referring to. I am not denying your experience, but I sure would like to understand how it happened; what the root causes were.

I am, however, very happy to see your tone changing now. Thank you.

Returning to the issue of the use of a freewheel, here is what was sent to me by someone extremely experienced and helpful from ICE. ...
Thanks again for that very informative explanation, and enjoyable video.

-- Alan
 
alan said:
... I tried to scale the pixels so that most browsers would render near actual size, but that varies by browser/display/etc.
I just checked this from my work machine (WinXP/Firefox/20" display) and the images are more than 2x the size of what I see on my home machine (Mac/Firefox/24" display). Guess that didn't work as well as I expected! Sorry. I've posted on other forums where JPEG image size was "respected", but it looks like this forum's engine does not do that.

-- Alan
 
alan said:
Canis Lupus said:
I was tempted to post some pictures of the charger to show the lack of warning about the voltage switch and also how well the switch is concealed and small the voltage numbering is on the back, but I couldn't be bothered with you. You keep misinterpreting my posts for your own personal, and no doubt, emotional reasons. I doubt even a photo will satisfy your scepticism. I had to put on my glasses and position the back of the charger in good light to even make out the numbering on the switch. Even then, it wasn't obvious it was a switch until I played around with it a bit. As I stated in my previous post, I was alerted to the issue of voltage, checked the specs written and it seemed ok. I don't know why you are writing something as condescending as "which should have been an immediate tip off to check the voltage setting", when I have already made it clear it was something I thought of prior to connecting it.

I have chargers and transformers for other electrical items which are rated for the same range of voltage. They do not make use of a switch.
Here are the pictures you would not post for me, of the back of the charger where the voltage switch is located; the first picture is set in the 115V position, and the second in the 230V position.

For anyone else having difficulty finding the switch, or not willing to put on their glasses, it is the red thing in the middle. :wink:

-- Alan
View attachment 1

Interesting thread...I experienced the same problem when I purchased a Bionx PL350 kit in Dec 2006...luckily it was the opposite of Canis Lupus's experience ( too bad, I just love the smell of deep fried battery chargers in the morning :lol: )...the battery failed to charge because it was set at the 230V position and the electric outlet is 110V. Because the manual did not include this bit of pertinent information, I did not find the little red switch until I went back to the dealer to trouble shoot the problem. At the time, because he only sold a few kits, the dealer did not figure it out right away. It took him about a half an hour to figure out the switch was the solution to the problem.

Canis Lupus, you will love the Schlumpf HS drive but when matched with a non-geared hub motor like the Bionx, it will limit your downhill high speed performance...see post by kosherrav on 09/06/2009 http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5360-bionx-battery-replacement

...if I was to purchase a new kit to match with a Schlumpf drive, I would purchase a freewheeling geared hub motor instead...because I'm a speed junky and fast is never fast enough :mrgreen:
strike this last statement...non-geared hub motors are a great fit for the Schlumpf drive...see my latest post on 12/19/2009 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5347&start=90 :wink:
 
alan said:
Did you perhaps get a used system? If so, how old is it? I can’t believe Bionx reduced documentation and product quality in the year since I got mine! What version system did you get? It looks like you ordered a Bionx system from the US, and had it shipped to Greece. Why didn’t you choose one of the closer dealers in Switzerland or France or other European country? Do you live in the US, and were just traveling in Greece when you decided to electrify your trike, figuring a local to home dealer would be best?


You posts from Nov 14 on were heavily dissing Bionx, and my reply was only talking positive about my Bionx experience in an effort to add balance to a clearly emotionally charged rant on the company. Then you dissed me for not helping you. Now you are telling me that I am lying and covering up something, and I have no idea what you are referring to. I am not denying your experience, but I sure would like to understand how it happened; what the root causes were.

I am, however, very happy to see your tone changing now. Thank you.

No worries. We got off to a bad start, but there is no need to continue along such lines.

To fill in some details about this purchase and the problem concerning the motor-battery. I bought this PL-350 off ebay used. It was advertised as a show room demo with less than 100 miles on it from a store in Utah, "ecomotors". I was reassured by the fact the seller had a shop-business, trading in electric bikes and was not an individual. I paid about $1200, including postage to Greece. No business in Greece sells BionX, as far as I know, especially where I am in a small town in the southern most part of the Peloponnese. Generally speaking I've had few problems with US sellers on ebay - the UK is a different matter. It was advertised for a 26" wheel kit, but the seller converted it to a 20" wheel free of charge, doing so under no obligation after the sale had been completed. I have been looking around for some time at European sellers, but they are generally more expensive than US sellers and some won't sell the PL350 kit because of legal restrictions in Europe. Unforeseen at the time of purchase was that ecomotors as a business using a shop front has now closed because of the economic downturn although the business appears to be continuing in another form and the seller has assured me he will be honouring the warranty. Hopefully that will be the case.

Root Causes: My technical inexperience .... no instructions ... poor communications set up by seller who did not respond initially to my emails seeking information after the unit arrived ... my impatience .... me mistaking an axle nut for a nut securing the freewheel, which it never needed, and then thinking the seller had not sent me an axle nut (inexperience + stupidity) .... wanting to test out the unit to see if it worked prior to it being installed correctly ie. axle nut on, not securing everything as it should have been and giving it a test out on a rear wheel frame. This resulted in the wires connecting the motor to the battery getting twisted and damaged I think. I'm still not 100% certain about that.

As for the charger problem, that issue has been thrashed to death between us and there is no need for a revisit.

Presently, the motor and charger are with BionX in Canada, via Utah. Blowed if I know how long it will take before it gets back to me, via Utah. Meanwhile, the battery I have is either so flat it won't even power the LCD console or it has suffered some damage to the circuit board with me opening up the box on several occasions. It's hard to know because of no charger and when the console was working it showed upon arrival a very low charge in the battery. Maybe it has gone completely flat just sitting here. I wouldn't be surprised if it is damaged though. The way the circuit board sits in the battery doesn't offer it much protection and the opening and closing of the shell is far from a gentle process.

This is one further problem I have with this system. I don't perceive it as being very durable or well manufactured. It is quite clunky in the way it fits together, including the insertion and taking out of the battery from its cradle. Because this unit was not new, the problems in this regard may be particular to the unit. I was disappointed to see several marks and scratches on the battery box on a unit which was said to be a show room demo and having done under 100 miles. That may sound like criticism of the seller, perhaps it is, but in other areas he has been quite helpful. He seems to be genuinely trying to help solve this mess although a few oversights on his part have helped to create it.

It's unfortunate that I have needed to play around with the battery. I don't think it has been helped any. One of the reasons I went with the BionX was because of the battery set up. It appeared from the information available on the net to be well designed. Easy on and off, fits neatly on the bike, locks onto frame, and regeneration mode. Having seen it all close up, I wish I had gone with the BMC 600w system and coupled it with a well priced, long life LifePo4 battery, even though it doesn't offer regeneration. In fact, if it turns out the BionX battery is damaged from my fiddling around opening up the shell, resulting in another delay to send it off to Canada via Utah and back again, a process which could take up to a further two months after I get the motor back which might take another 6 weeks or so, I think I will call it quits on BionX and order in the BMC system immediately.

I've also just been left wondering whether electronics and bikes go that well together and whether the combination is a contradiction or mismatch - an idea which was suggested to me by someone at ICE who sold me my trike. ICE, for reasons best known to themselves, don't want any involvement with the BionX system. They made that fairly clear to me. I hope it is wrong and eventually I get to enjoy the benefits of pedal assist. The mountains here in Greece are all too numerous and the prospect of sharing the road with Australian motorists when returning home, particularly in Sydney, without some sort of assistance to quickly speed me through trouble areas is not something I look forward to. Sydney motorists as a whole are pigs to each other, but reserve their most intense hatred for cyclists. The government there has been absolutely hopeless in the creation of much wanted and needed bike paths and lanes separating the two, and there have been many incidents between cyclists and motorists sparking controversy. So hateful are many motorists towards cyclists on Sydney roads that they want cyclists off them unless the owners register their bikes like cars and display number plates. Have you ever heard anything more ridiculous? Yet it is something that many in Australia are demanding because they think cyclists are getting something for nothing on THEIR roads. It is not uncommon for Australian motorists to throw objects and/or abuse at cyclists just for kicks.

alan said:
Thanks again for that very informative explanation, and enjoyable video.
-- Alan

No worries, glad you enjoyed it. I got a lot of satisfaction out of making the Olympia video. A few more edits still needed to be made, but my little 10" AUS eee kept freezing up after a certain point of complexity. Still, it came out ok, considering I was on the road at the time, using a really basic digital camera and computer.

I do think it is disappointing with rear wheel drive ebikes that most or all seem to use a freewheel system. Unless there is a technical reason for this, the consumer suffers in being deprived of gear options normally available on most bikes. With a 20" wheel it really makes a difference, maybe not such an issue with 26" or 700cc. If it is a royalty issue which is the cause, it doesn't make too much sense for the consumer. In the context of a conversion, charging the consumer the extra expense for the royalty payment and providing the Shimano system makes more sense. The consumer could just change over his existing gear hub, rather than having to fork out for a new freewheel, which probably doesn't offer the range of gears of his existing hub. Also, it appears from the information sent to me, the Shimano hub system is more durable, especially when using a larger number of gears.
 
dennis said:
...if I was to purchase a new kit to match with a Schlumpf drive, I would purchase a freewheeling geared hub motor instead...because I'm a speed junky and fast is never fast enough :mrgreen:
strike this last statement...non-geared hub motors are a great fit for the Schlumpf drive...see my latest post on 12/19/2009 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5347&start=90 :wink:

Yep, I am regretting not going with the BMC which is truly freewheeling, unlike the BionX system I have, although I think BinoX's latest motor addresses that issue. Utah trikes sent me the Schlumpf drive a few weeks ago pre-installed on a new boom, but it's presently stuck in Greek customs according to the tracking information I have, which means it is unlikely I will receive it before the New Year.

Greece is a great place to chill out and do nothing, but if you ever want to get something done, it can be frustrating with red tape and lazy government workers who couldn't give a damn about very much except their pay packet. Greece's economy is a mess and it isn't hard to see the reasons why. The place is simply unpleasant and frustrating to conduct any type of business. It also doesn't help not speaking Greek, a language which is perplexing to me.
 
dennis said:
Canis Lupus, you will love the Schlumpf HS drive but when matched with a non-geared hub motor like the Bionx, it will limit your downhill high speed performance...see post by kosherrav on 09/06/2009 http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5360-bionx-battery-replacement

...if I was to purchase a new kit to match with a Schlumpf drive, I would purchase a freewheeling geared hub motor instead...because I'm a speed junky and fast is never fast enough :mrgreen:
strike this last statement...non-geared hub motors are a great fit for the Schlumpf drive...see my latest post on 12/19/2009 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5347&start=90 :wink:

I installed the High Speed Drive. What a difference that makes to the gearing! But it doesn't stop there. Ridding the boom of the trike of a triple cog, derailer and wiring, really tidies things up, plus the chain drive is now set in one place and gives the appearance and feel of something more reliable and efficient. That might be illusionary, it being an appearance.

I was stunned with how much power it added the top end. I think I may have lost some gearing at the lower end, but that is ok because it was bought in anticipation of a motor going on the trike. I now have essentially 27 and 67 tooth cogs up front. I went for a 30k ride day before yesterday and have pulled up sore. I think I was too keen to try out the higher gears on the ride. Changing the gearing with your feet takes a bit of getting used to. I wish that bone on the inside of the ankle matchwd up perfectly to the gear button, but I did like the ability to change when stationary.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how well it fits in with the BionX system. Given that my most powerful rear cog will be 11 teeth with the BionX motor, the Schlumpf drive gives back plenty of scope at the top end to more than compensate for losing the 9 and 10 teeth gears with the installation of the freewheel cluster.

I noticed with the top gearing of the Schlumpf drive a grinding noise. I checked with my supplier whether there was need to lubricate it now. He said it came pre-lubricated but it would take about 1000ks for it to be run in. Did you find this with yours?

The Schlumpf drive is a definite inclusion in a longer term project - a 700cc rear wheeled trike, combined with a 36-72 volt powered BMC 600HS Motor. Just checking out the Schlumpf web site, the HSD allows for 34T cogs, which then gives you the equivalent of something like a 80 tooth front cog. That would be a crazy feeling, being pushed along at around 60km while pedalling hard with the HSD.
 
Canis Lupusorg/forum/5360-bionx-battery-replacement said:
I noticed with the top gearing of the Schlumpf drive a grinding noise. I checked with my supplier whether there was need to lubricate it now. He said it came pre-lubricated but it would take about 1000ks for it to be run in. Did you find this with yours?

The Schlumpf drive is a definite inclusion in a longer term project - a 700cc rear wheeled trike, combined with a 36-72 volt powered BMC 600HS Motor. Just checking out the Schlumpf web site, the HSD allows for 34T cogs, which then gives you the equivalent of something like a 80 tooth front cog. That would be a crazy feeling, being pushed along at around 60km while pedalling hard with the HSD.

When the HS gear is "on" the planetary gears are engaged to give you the 2.5 percent bump, so yes, you will hear the gears working...it's not as efficient as a larger front cog, but with limited space, the Schlumpf gear is the perfect mechanism for the job. I run a 52T front cog on my Dahon...with the Schlumpf in high gear = 130T front cog. When traveling downhill, I can add usable pedal input at over 50 mph :D Have not tried a steeper hill yet :twisted:

Keep it lubed with the syringe of green grease that is included with your Schlumpf drive and you will not have any wear issues for many...many miles :wink:
 
dennis said:
Canis Lupusorg/forum/5360-bionx-battery-replacement said:
I noticed with the top gearing of the Schlumpf drive a grinding noise. I checked with my supplier whether there was need to lubricate it now. He said it came pre-lubricated but it would take about 1000ks for it to be run in. Did you find this with yours?

The Schlumpf drive is a definite inclusion in a longer term project - a 700cc rear wheeled trike, combined with a 36-72 volt powered BMC 600HS Motor. Just checking out the Schlumpf web site, the HSD allows for 34T cogs, which then gives you the equivalent of something like a 80 tooth front cog. That would be a crazy feeling, being pushed along at around 60km while pedalling hard with the HSD.

When the HS gear is "on" the planetary gears are engaged to give you the 2.5 percent bump, so yes, you will hear the gears working...it's not as efficient as a larger front cog, but with limited space, the Schlumpf gear is the perfect mechanism for the job. I run a 52T front cog on my Dahon...with the Schlumpf in high gear = 130T front cog. When traveling downhill, I can add usable pedal input at over 50 mph :D Have not tried a steeper hill yet :twisted:

Keep it lubed with the syringe of green grease that is included with your Schlumpf drive and you will not have any wear issues for many...many miles :wink:

The HSP drive has really quietened down now. It might also be that I am getting used to the noise a bit, but it does seem a lot quieter. It is running smooth in top and low. I still find the gear changes awkward. If had a bigger foot it would be better. I might invest in the easy changers you can add to the HSP, but I will give it a bit more time to see if I get used to it better. If I am wearing shows it is easier, but I like to trike-cycle in sandals generally.


I gave the BionX system a test out yesterday. I still need some extender wirer to install it properly, but until I get the wire the battery is sitting in a handlebar bag I hang at the back of the seat. It's not ideal but it works.

BionX has advised me not to use the extender wire for their systems pre-2008. They suggest it may cause communication problems and result in a loss of power. However, the natural place for it on the trike is up front towards the boom on the built in water bottle screws, so I will give it a go there.

I can't say I was impressed with the pedal assist. I had it on 4 for most of the time. Unless I was traveling slow, I didn't notice it a great deal. Most of the time I used the throttle and was happy enough with the PL-350's power, but the battery life wasn't that long using it that way. When going uphills, I didn't feel much pedal assistance at all. Using the throttle made a big difference, but not the pedal assist, even at 4.

Anyway, it is early days, too early for me to drawing conclusions. I may need to adjust a few things to have it set up and operating smoothly for what I want.
 
Took the BionX system on a test ride yesterday. The ground is roughly flat with no great climbs, just 3 or 4 gentle slopes. It's about 30km. Usually I average between 16-17km on the trike overall at that distance.

Some observations: pedal assist on 4 does not come close to giving the assistance possible with the throttle. As stated before, I barely noticed the pedal assist even on level 4 unless I was going slowly ie. under 15km. This might mean the axle hitch angle needs adjusting, but it looks close to the 6 -o'clock angle required, but it might be more sensitive than I imagine. So, jury is out on the pedal assist, but at the moment it does not look good.

I used the throttle mainly, trying to be judicious to preserve power, while at the same time on a few occasions trying out the regenerative setting on either 1 or 2 when going down slopes. Eventually, I set the mode to 0, keeping in mind someone's post I read once which said even in "neutral" the motor sent some charge into the battery - the older BionX systems not being truly freewheeling, which is what I have. Using this method I covered the 30km at an average of 25-26 ks. I returned home with the battery indicator showing 1 bar of the 8 left.

I weigh about 88kg. The trike, with the bionX system and accessories, is about 25kg - my educated guess. I'll check that today.

I was able to keep fairly close to the system's max speed of 32km, which is fast enough for me. It did seem to exceed that speed on several occasions or at least with the help of the motor to get me passed that speed easily with some pedaling. So, it often gave me the impression of traveling at around 40km.

My conclusion so far: it's a good system for around town, but for touring, which is just as important to me, the system needs very careful management, lest it become dead weight liability. Until I check on the hitch angle, I cannot say for certain the following: at this stage the % for power assist stated by BionX looks hopelessly over-inflated. There is no way at level 4 assistance the Bionx system is giving 300% compared to the rider's power. The same applies to other levels and the lower %'s, but with the throttle being used it does. At levels 1 or 2, I question the worth of using the system. Any assistance it gives would be negated by the extra weight of the system, it seems to me, especially when tackling slopes, hills or mountains. This leads on to issues of range, naturally. One of the selling points of the system is the great range you can achieve with the lower settings of pedal assist, approx 80km on level 1. That idea seems to be a marketing illusion.

I liked the regenerative braking and it does present some interesting options for an overall better braking system with a few modifications to my existing set up.

The charging time is not too bad, but for touring it would be great to get it down to 2 hours from 4. One could easily stop midway for lunch for two hours and get a recharge on the run. It will be interesting to see what a partial charge of 2 hours would indicate when re-connecting the battery to the system after it had been depleted fully prior to the recharge. If it indicated something like 3/4 (6 out of 8 bars), then I suppose that would be acceptable when touring.

There are a couple of other issues, but I will keep it short for now. Today, I am going to do some mountain climbing with it up to 600 metres.
 
Canis Lupus said:
Some observations: pedal assist on 4 does not come close to giving the assistance possible with the throttle. As stated before, I barely noticed the pedal assist even on level 4 unless I was going slowly ie. under 15km. This might mean the axle hitch angle needs adjusting, but it looks close to the 6 -o'clock angle required, but it might be more sensitive than I imagine. So, jury is out on the pedal assist, but at the moment it does not look good.
Couple of ideas. First, make sure the axle notch is perpendicular to chain center. On most bikes the pedal rotation axis and the rear wheel rotation axis are at the same height off the ground, so the chain center would be perfectly horizontal. Therefore, the axle notch should be vertical (straight down). I'm not sure how your tricycle is set up, but if the chain is not horizontal, then the notch should be not be vertical.

Second, and this is from memory, there are two settings that will get your assistance at the level you want (after making sure the notch is set right!). I believe they are 0007 and 0008. The first determines, if I recall correctly, how readily the power will be applied. If that is set too sensitive, then the bike may take off before your feet are fully on the pedals! You don't want it to engage under a few MPH for safety. I don't see from your post that this is a problem, but I think the factory default is a bit too high, and you may find this will help.

The 0008 setting is a double setting, an A and a B value, which determine how sensitive the torque sensor is, and either your notch is too far off, or this setting is way too low for you. If this is set too high, your feet will get less workout on the pedal than your thumb will on the throttle! The B setting (I think) determines how much power is applied for a given torque input. This can be made so high that a level 1 assist will give you more power than the default value does for level 4.

I found that default settings for level 4 is virtually useless, unless I did not want any exercise; might as well use the throttle. Level 3 is very aggressive, and level 2 is more than I typically want. However, I found level 1 was barely more assist than compensating for the weight of the system itself. I wanted to do most of my riding between 1 and 2, so I bumped up the 0007 and 0008 settings to get exactly what I wanted, and now I ride about 90% of the time at level 1. Sometimes I go to 2 or 3 near the end of my ride just to cool down. I rarely use the throttle.

Search these posts, as all the info I have on these settings came from Endless-sphere.com threads.

-- Alan
 
Thanks, Allan. I appreciate the tips and will play around with the codes in the near future. Given the greater pedal assistance at slow speeds, I suspect it might be set for European speed limits and that the throttle when used over rides that limit. Does that sound correct? It definitely goes faster than the supposed 32k's using the throttle. My GPS recorded 37ks with no pedaling.

Yesterday, I took it on mountain climb. I had the setting on 4. For the first couple of Ks it was doing a great job. Basically, on what is usually a 4-5km p.h. grind upwards to about 600 metres for 6km, it lifted the speed to about 10ks with pedal assist on 4. After about 2km of the climb, despite the battery displaying 5 bars left, it faded in assistance. Maybe it was being over worked, but it seemed odd. During the climb the pedal assist on 4 gave as much as the throttle in assistance - there was no difference. I was pleased with the initial assistance because it is for hill climbing I wanted the motor most.

When the pedal assistance started fading, I decided to turn around to give the regenerative feature a workout. I set it on 4 given the steepness of the grade. Usually I approach speeds of about 60km coming down from the mountain, but with the regeneration on and pedaling a bit, it was slowed down to 40ks, which was still pretty quick. It was all over in about 5 minutes. I didn't notice any additional bars on the battery indicator as a result of the regeneration, which was a bit disappointing. Oh well.
 
On long slow full power climbs, Previous to Gen 4, bionx's with 26" rear wheels would over heat. So Bionx put a thermal sensor in to detect moderate heat and prevent further heating by using reduced power till the heat disappated. this is way deep inside the motor so one might not be able to detect this normally.

wondering if after seeing this problem, there is a way to ride at a decent cooling speed without any power to see if normal power later returns?

But I thought you had a 20" wheel? hmmm.

d
 
Canis Lupus said:
Given the greater pedal assistance at slow speeds, I suspect it might be set for European speed limits and that the throttle when used over rides that limit. Does that sound correct?
Could be. I don't know. My max throttle and max pedal sense assist levels seem to be the same always, however, I rarely get to max assist from either, except briefly when starting up from a stop.
Yesterday, I took it on mountain climb. I had the setting on 4. For the first couple of Ks it was doing a great job. [...] After about 2km of the climb, despite the battery displaying 5 bars left, it faded in assistance. [...]

When the pedal assistance started fading, I decided to turn around to give the regenerative feature a workout.
Sounds to me like you overheated the motor. Note that regen generates as much heat in the system as does generating power. The heat in the motor is primarily caused by current through the coils, and regen is just reversed current, but the I2R losses don't care which direction the current flows.

If your post image is correct, and you are riding with all those panniers surrounding your wheels, that may be a significant factor in the overheating. Anything that restricts airflow over the motor will limit the motor's ability to cool itself. There needs to be abundant airflow over the motor, controller and battery on any ebike (the BionX motor and controller are in the same housing), or you are asking for trouble.

-- Alan
 
deardancer3 said:
On long slow full power climbs, Previous to Gen 4, bionx's with 26" rear wheels would over heat. So Bionx put a thermal sensor in to detect moderate heat and prevent further heating by using reduced power till the heat disappated. this is way deep inside the motor so one might not be able to detect this normally.

wondering if after seeing this problem, there is a way to ride at a decent cooling speed without any power to see if normal power later returns?

But I thought you had a 20" wheel? hmmm.

d

Yes, I have a 20" rear wheel. The kit was originally on a 26" wheel bike, however, the BionX kits can be used on all wheel sizes. Yes, given a 20" wheel, there should be no issue with torque, however, the mountains surrounding my town here in Greece are steep. That said, I would expect the engine to take me further without over heating, if that is what has occurred.

Yesterday, I did another hill climb. Much the same thing happened after about the same distance, the pedal assist faded. This time I took a break and enjoyed the view a bit before continuing the ascent. I noticed the pedal assist returned to the original level after the break, but again I turned back before it faded again.

So, your point above may well be correct, despite the 20" wheel. At the time I had not read your post, and wondered whether it was me fading and the sensor picking up on my reduced power and giving less in proportion. Maybe it is a combination of both, however, given the lack of power when trying to use the throttle, I lean away from me tiring as being the cause.




alan said:
Sounds to me like you overheated the motor. Note that regen generates as much heat in the system as does generating power. The heat in the motor is primarily caused by current through the coils, and regen is just reversed current, but the I2R losses don't care which direction the current flows.

If your post image is correct, and you are riding with all those panniers surrounding your wheels, that may be a significant factor in the overheating. Anything that restricts airflow over the motor will limit the motor's ability to cool itself. There needs to be abundant airflow over the motor, controller and battery on any ebike (the BionX motor and controller are in the same housing), or you are asking for trouble.

-- Alan

The set up in my avatar was for touring Greece, not the ride yesterday. I was carrying no luggage. The rear wheel was exposed free of any covering, however, even with that setup there is sufficient room between the hub of the wheel and surrounding luggage to allow for air cooling. The ICE designed rear rack actually angles outwards, giving more space than other racks. During the summer, the luggage would actually shade the motor from direct sunlight, however, the extra weight would burden the motor. Besides, the weather at the moment is very mild here, compared to the temperatures, particularly on the road, which summer brings both here in Greece and Australia. This does not bode well for its future use in summer, if heating is the problem.

It might be the case that the BionX system, while being suitable for most purposes, especially around town, is just not up to the demands of touring, especially in a place like Greece with such regular and steep climbs.
 
Update: the system appears to have died! :roll:

Yesterday after going up a short hill, here in town, the system shut down at the crest. This was despite there being 3 bars left on the battery indicator. It would not turn back on, so I headed home. I later checked the battery out after trying to charge it and wake it up - it was doing neither. I opened the case, noticed the fuse had blown, and replaced it. The battery woke up after this and I was able to recharge it. However, despite the battery being fully charged, reading 41.7 volts on my voltmeter, when I connected it to the engine and LCD console, nothing came on, even after I woke the battery up again. So, the battery seems ok. It must be the engine again.

Edit: It's come back to life. It's totally gutless now, however, when I use the throttle. I'm assuming it went back to some kind of limp-wristed default when the fuse blew.

Further Edit: Battery is stuffed. The setup I had with the battery in a handlebar-bag hanging off my seat, proved not up to the strain. Going over a bump at speed it (the bag) jump out of its cradle, thw wires disconnected themselves, and the bag with BionX battery and its cradle in it, fell on the road. The bag itself cushioned most of the impact on the road, it being quite a solid bag. Nothing broke, but I think the circuitry in the BionX battery was damaged. My tail light on the exterior of the bag survived, but not the BionX battery inside. It's not responding to anything. Fuse is ok, was beeping when awoken at one stage, but giving off an odd voltage reading on the voltmeter (started at 19 volts and then just gradually faded to nothing). Now it is not even beeping upon being woken up, nor giving anything in the way of a voltage reading.

It's a shame this is happened, I was just beginning to enjoy the system. Despite making numerous requests to the dealer for the supply of extender wire to make the battery installation secure, and being reassured the second time around it was being sent, the lack of it has proved important in what has happened. I could have just sat around waiting several weeks until it eventually arrived, just like I should have waited originally for the missing axle nut to be supplied before testing the system, but there you go .... patience has never been my virtue in most things.
 
Someone more familar with the BionX system might be able to explain the following email I received from the BionX dealer who has been looking at my system in Germany. What I am particularly perplexed about is the software upgrade and what changes this might mean to the system.

sory for the delay, we are really busy right now. The system is on the way back to you. There is a now motor in the rear wheel, my colleague trued the wheel about 5mm away from the gear side. In the cellbox the PCBA is new, with a new software on it. Pls do not chane the code 2002 ( Generator) to level 64 anymore. The amount of power moving back into the cells could be to big then, this could cause damages. The charger plug in the akku is new, everything is working well now.
Unfortunatley the colleague already shipped the parcel, without the cable extension. I hope you can help you out with this. From the DC / DC connector i did not know so far, sorry that we don´t installed it.

I'm not sure whether "there is a now motor in the rear wheel" means a new motor. And if it means a new motor, that means the new Sine type drive, but he said in a previous email they were rebuilding the wheel, asking me if it was alright to use silver spokes because they had run out of black ones. That would seem to indicate a new motor, together with a software upgrade. Normally, I'd simply write to him, but he is very slow in responding to emails - as he says very busy, and I think he struggles a little bit with his English. It's not as if I don't expect to pay for the accessory, I do, but I only need 50cms. Utah Trikes has been the most reasonably priced for it with a $19, but that is for the 80cm length. They have no 50cm.

Still trying to get this bloody extender wire though. I've rarely had so much of problem to get hold of something so simple. I've been asking about it since before the original dealer sent the kit from the US. I just keep asking, but get no-where with it.

Just add an adjunct to previous posts in this thread, while the original dealer has dropped out of the scene, BionX has stepped up to do the right thing in regards to the kit and has been generous in their help. I've been out of pocket postage charges to Canada and Germany, and some considerable time without the system, but otherwise BionX has provided excellent support, especially once the right person at BionX was communicated with.
 
opinion;


I read it several times, could mean several different things such as "NOW" motor being new motor could mean Unused Gen 3 or Gen 4 motor, software could be new microcode, new console, or just all settings refreshed. PCB in cell box could be the battery bus interface.

GEn 4 and gen 3 dont work together. If anything went to Gen 4, then everthing is gen 4-- And that could also be.
(Gen 3/4 dependant components ; motor, Battery control PCB, console. I think chargers, cells and cables are not Gen dependant; Bionx used to make diferent cables for different config bikes, then went to just cable extensions. In theory, Gen 4 full CAN buss solved the long cable timing problems, which was just a display irritant anyway-no loss of system power.

Large dealers may have both both Gen 3 and Gen 4 systems and components on hand; so could go either way. Not much Gen 1 around, but lots 2 and 3 systems around 1 2 3 interchangable with some system interactions fixed by console settings-again all opinions.

you Will have to get details from that dealer. just ask "what hardware was replaced at what version/revision level?" or "Is everthing now the latest Version #4?"

d
d
 
deardancer3 said:
opinion;


I read it several times, could mean several different things such as "NOW" motor being new motor could mean Unused Gen 3 or Gen 4 motor, software could be new microcode, new console, or just all settings refreshed. PCB in cell box could be the battery bus interface.

GEn 4 and gen 3 dont work together. If anything went to Gen 4, then everthing is gen 4-- And that could also be.
(Gen 3/4 dependant components ; motor, Battery control PCB, console. I think chargers, cells and cables are not Gen dependant; Bionx used to make diferent cables for different config bikes, then went to just cable extensions. In theory, Gen 4 full CAN buss solved the long cable timing problems, which was just a display irritant anyway-no loss of system power.

Large dealers may have both both Gen 3 and Gen 4 systems and components on hand; so could go either way. Not much Gen 1 around, but lots 2 and 3 systems around 1 2 3 interchangable with some system interactions fixed by console settings-again all opinions.

you Will have to get details from that dealer. just ask "what hardware was replaced at what version/revision level?" or "Is everthing now the latest Version #4?"

d
d

He said the length of the cabling is still an issue even with the changes. So it is not the Sine motor and newest system that's for sure.

The motor is still a !²C, so there is a limitation in the lenght of the com - cables.

I'm still in the dark even though some light has been shed by the latest reply. It's an awkward situation, when I had a dealer who understood English well, he was a tad incompetent and hapless with his business going down the tube as a result of the economy. Now I seem to be dealing with people competent, but the language barrier is a problem.
 
After 7 months of asking with some 20 odd emails and telephone calls, my extender cable arrived so that I could install the battery properly as the BionX system is designed.

Only problem is I was sent the wrong cable. I made it clear I needed the extender cable between the motor and battery but they sent me the communication cable between battery and LCD controller.

Farking brilliant! Now more waiting for the impossible dream.
 
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