Buying a new battery: your advice sought

[tomjasz]

To be unfront honest no more impressed by your on-going pro EM3ev posts than i am with your sporty avatar.
Actually your pro EM3ev posts are getting to be the same ol' same ol' ...

Others too may be wondering why you seem to be the only one so obsessed with Chinese EM3ev batteries ???

If they are as superior as you claim then there would be more than 2 or 3 ES faithful stalwarts praising EM3ev.

I think you spent too much time chumming with Curtis.

Again, look back in this forum archives for Cellman and EM3ev.
391 pages of discussion going back to 2012.

Here I'll post it for you. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=em3ev&start=9625

 

[tomjasz]

Those cell prices are high enough too make good professionally built packs available at livable prices.

Luna doesn’t build all their packs. They’ve let people believe they do but it’s sadly not accurate.

I have welders, test platforms, cells and a dozen or so BMS. But i just don’t see the economy in building. I’ll staybeith specifying my pack components and having someone else build. My EM3ev and Grin packs have been the longest lasting and problem free. IMO we get what we pay for. My Grinspecter, 1010B, and misc cases and supplies will all be found in the for sale section next month.

To me, you hit the signature point of discussion. To build versus buy. A huge dilemma for those knowledgable. Not knowledable? Just order a battery and call it good and be clueless when it doesn't perform as expected or dies early in its life which far and away is the norm. The public is pretty clueless about this stuff and why they get sucked into proprietary, name brand ebikes as an example. Nobody wants to know or take the time.

Purchasing a good battery for a true ebike hobbyist is a huge dilemma. We want build quality and A grade, balanced cells and even want to know what name and model cells are inside the enclosure, we want a quality BMS and pure Nickel strips and best construction protocols.
Good luck is the message to the ebike community by manufacturers....unless willing to make our own batteries.

We can settle...or settle of sorts. We can go semi custom or off the shelf with 'decent' but not exceptional battery construction like EM3ev. Many push back on UPP because of stories told and people know they aren't the quality of EM3ev. People settle, even knowledgable people here because of scarcity of top quality batteries.

I know I could build an exceptional battery. All the parts exist in cyberspace. Great quality parts. Its a time thing.
I am willing to pay for a high quality battery because I believe its worth it to pay more for very high quality. The problem is, the guarantee of that quality.

I really believe this is the biggest leap of faith issue relative to purchasing ebike components. We can pretty much rely on parts being good generally. Sure, we might run into a defective motor or controller and yes, buying stuff out of China is a huge hassle if the stuff doesn't work but battery quality is the black hole of the industry and...quite simply, why many that really know how bad off the shelf batteries are, they suck it up and make their own.

Agreed.

 

[eMark]

I think you spent too much time chumming with Curtis.

Don't have a clue who you're referencing. Who is Curtis or is this your sense of wry humor?

Honestly i'd never buy a EM3ev ... the reason being that your EM3ev posts are of no real substance. Just the same ol' same ol'. If your avatar was more professional (like ebuilder) i'd consider a EM3ev , but only if they had a US office contact and available US stock.

UPP no longer makes their previous UPP battery pack design purchased from Amazon for $238 (aok) as backup pack ...

So instead of UPP this replacement would cost $436 from Liberty Trike (profit margin). All 4 are still good performers (LT 36V10Ah, UPP 36V10Ah, DIY 30Q 36V9Ah & 33G9Ah) thanks in no small measure to TLC. May never need another.

Mark not to pile on and you maybe a defender of UPP, there is profound irony in your post that you don't know about.
That paired motor and battery with a Smile you show sold on Amazon. It is the biggest scourge Bafang ever sold to the world. A CANBUS battery that can't be paired with another motor nor can that motor run without that chipped Battery. Only way that Bafang motor can run is by replacing the controller which has been done. Ribbing you because you sited the worst possible example. Bafang was demonized for their money grab to sell more batteries. Btw, that battery might not even be that bad even though it is shaped like a brick and won't fit a great many triangle frames.

Not surprised at your reprizal; especially with that SMILE battery included in the package deal. Thankyou for your post from a seasoned ebiker that knows his stuff and another side to Amazon ... honest insightful info - BUYER BEWARE !

As a suggestion to blooster tomjazz praise for EM3ev it would be encouraging if the next battery you decide to buy is one from EM3ev. Give it some serious consideration as it should be worth the extra investment and extra cycle life performance :thumb:

 

[tomjasz]

I can’t remember when I’ve read sillier comebacks. “Professional avatar”. After 7 years, age 64-71 I retired from kit sales and support. My second retirement. My first at 57 to relax in Minnesota.

So, lets just end it OK?

You know you can simply use a FOE setting and never have to be bothered by an opinion or post.

Thanks.

 

[eMark]

After 7 years, age 64-71 I retired from kit sales and support. My second retirement. My first at 57 to relax in Minnesota.

Winona is God's beautiful country nestled between Mississippi R(fishing) and Limestone Bluffs. As good a place as any to retire

 

[Dak77]

18650batterystore(retail side)/Bulkbattery.com(wholesale side) is a good vendor in my experience. I've only had 3 orders with them, but they ship fast and their products and support are spot on. They're my go-to . 50E2 using NESE modules has been the best combination I've used . No worry about spot welds popping loose, I disassemble them every 3 months to look for corrosion or cracking . Takes about 20 mins and Im back up and running. Love it.

 

[tomjasz]

18650batterystore(retail side)/Bulkbattery.com(wholesale side) is a good vendor in my experience. I've only had 3 orders with them, but they ship fast and their products and support are spot on. They're my go-to . 50E2 using NESE modules has been the best combination I've used . No worry about spot welds popping loose, I disassemble them every 3 months to look for corrosion or cracking . Takes about 20 mins and Im back up and running. Love it.

My NESE is 18650. But a recent soft pack of 50E cells has really impressed me. I'm pleasantly surprised by the performance and mileage of my 36V 20Ah 50E pack. In the next NESE sale, I'll be ordering 21700 kits.

 

[Dak77]

18650batterystore(retail side)/Bulkbattery.com(wholesale side) is a good vendor in my experience. I've only had 3 orders with them, but they ship fast and their products and support are spot on. They're my go-to . 50E2 using NESE modules has been the best combination I've used . No worry about spot welds popping loose, I disassemble them every 3 months to look for corrosion or cracking . Takes about 20 mins and Im back up and running. Love it.

Do you have a picture of your combined NESE module pack? How many volts and amp-hr's and number of cells do you use to power what I presume is an ebike?

It's 14s5p stacked flat and laying on it's side , like a loaf of bread if you will. That's "25AH" @ 58.8V if you charge to 4.2V per cell. I don't . I charge to 57.4V (4.1V per cell. I haven't measured actual capacity , but it's close to that number after 15 months of every day use . For low amperage applications they're awesome cells. I have them in a battery bag under the passenger seat of my bike , so it's a bit of a pain to remove the seat to take a pic, but I can show you what it looks like on the bike before I put the seat back on.

 

[Dak77]

18650batterystore(retail side)/Bulkbattery.com(wholesale side) is a good vendor in my experience. I've only had 3 orders with them, but they ship fast and their products and support are spot on. They're my go-to . 50E2 using NESE modules has been the best combination I've used . No worry about spot welds popping loose, I disassemble them every 3 months to look for corrosion or cracking . Takes about 20 mins and Im back up and running. Love it.

My NESE is 18650. But a recent soft pack of 50E cells has really impressed me. I'm pleasantly surprised by the performance and mileage of my 36V 20Ah 50E pack. In the next NESE sale, I'll be ordering 21700 kits.

Yep they're great. The real beauty of the NESE modules is if you need higher amps, just pop in 40T and you're set.

 

[Dak77]

18650batterystore(retail side)/Bulkbattery.com(wholesale side) is a good vendor in my experience. I've only had 3 orders with them, but they ship fast and their products and support are spot on. They're my go-to . 50E2 using NESE modules has been the best combination I've used . No worry about spot welds popping loose, I disassemble them every 3 months to look for corrosion or cracking . Takes about 20 mins and Im back up and running. Love it.

Do you have a picture of your combined NESE module pack? How many volts and amp-hr's and number of cells do you use to power what I presume is an ebike?

One thing to add ; a thin sheet of PVC , wood , clipboard backing, whatever, to the broadside of the assembled modules and duct tape or shrink wrap it, it really makes it durable and essentially vibration proof if you're a more active biker. I don't wrap mine though as I mostly stay on the pavement.

 

[vanturion]

So I was curious about the Molicel cell-wrapping (black vs gray) vs battery grade commentary earlier, and ended up firing off a couple questions to Molicel CS and liionwholesale. Didn't hear back from Molicel, but did get a response from liionwholesale. Rather than paraphrase, they said it was alright to share their response here:

Most cell manufacturers show images of their cells on their website that have a much fancier wrap on their website than reality. I don't really agree with it but it is the norm. So Molicel does not sell any cells with that black wrap, it's just a marketing render. You can see those don't even have a particular model name on them or anything so clearly they're not a real battery wrap.

As we are authorized in partnership with NPE to buy the cells directly from Molicel, the cells we sell from Molicel are the highest grade available.

If anyone else were selling lower grade batteries, you likely wouldn't be able to tell from the wrap. That's why it's so important to only buy Molicels from authorized companies.

I also asked about the variance 2.7% capacity variance I saw in the pack energy compared between my packs.

Your difference between packs is slightly higher than I'd expect but at the same time within what I would consider the tolerance if you got a little bit unlucky with the cell groupings. Remember it only takes one weaker 1s8p string to bring down the whole pack's capacity. Same thing with the welds, one weld that has a bit high resistance can bring it down as well, or tiny differences in many welds, especially if you're running at high amps. When we test the cells in incoming inspection we'll see around a 3% variation between the best and the worst.

So there you go, I was just unlucky in my assembly which can happen if you care enough to min-max with individually testing each cell and grouping them to even out parallel groups or remove the lowest outliers if they exist. It was also good to see that this distributor has a process in place to perform inspection tests on the battery shipments they receive to ensure quality.