Can you help me with this battery mystery?

[Vaporizing2019]

Hey nice people,

I don't understand why I am having problems with a new lead battery in my electric trike.

Here is a picture of it. I have the same but an older 36V 350W model that has one lead battery 12v 10 ah inside.

https://www.electricbikeparadise.com/products/mototec-48v-12ah-500w-3-wheel-electric-scooter-mt-trk-500?currency=USD&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&gclid=CjwKCAiAjoeRBhAJEiwAYY3nDEJUXkbph80okDqrhd27wMYHoP_exIHbCW4Xpjnwzo7id9CiE9eYQxoCEU8QAvD_BwE

I have it for 4 years and it worked fine except of bad tires in the back. However, batterywise, I used it in summer better than in winter. But I could use it also in winter for approx. 6 miles range. After 4 years, I decided to put in a new battery to still use it on milder winter days for the same range, approx. 6 miles. I bought a Mighty Max Battery ML 12-12 and had it tested. It was fully loaded but it performed just 3 miles. I have no possibility to charge it half the way. I live very rural.

I don't get it. Why did the Chinese battery (don't ask me for details as all written on the green battery was in Chinese) perform better than the US-made battery?

And where do I get a really good battery for this trike? I depend on it very much.

I am thankful for any advice.

 

[john61ct]

If you need sealed, go true deep cycle AGM.

Northstar, Odyssey and Lifeline are the only good makers in the NA market. So much fraud, scammers otherwise in retail channels.

Biggest Ah capacity you can fit in the space.

LFP is twice as energy dense but pricey.

 

[Vaporizing2019]

Thanks, John, bless you!

 

[scootergrisen]

If it's a 36V model it sounds like there should be 3 batteries.

3 batteries x 12 volt = 36 volt.

Maybe you bought a starter battery and not a deep cycle battery.

If it doesn't say deep cycle anywhere on the battery or in the manual then it is properly a starter battery.

 

[Vaporizing2019]

scootergrisen, you might be right. Starter battery, makes sense.

There is just one battery in my shooter. They now make newer models with 3 batteries, I know.

I should look for deep cycle.

The hood over my battery is just 6 inch. I don't find a smaller size of battery with more than 12 or 15 ah, otherwise I would buy one with higher ah.

 

[amberwolf]

I posted this in your other thread, and am crossposting it here so you are more likely to see it, and if it's useful to anyone else reading your thread later.

*****************************
I would recommend adding external batteries in a weather-resistant case (like Pelican, etc) mounted under the seat, etc. to get extra range without recharging.

Alternately, you can replace with a more efficient chemistry than lead-acid, which will give you at best half of the rated capacity. There are a number of 12v-replacement Lithium chemistry batteries that are likely to give you better range *and* a longer lifespan, as long as they can handle the current draw (amps, A), and as long as you can find one the same size as your existing lead-acid battery.

It's possible that the orignal battery actually was one of these, and that is why you got twice the range you now get (because even if rated for the same Ah, (amp-hours), the lithium battery would give you about twice the actual delivered capacity than the same-rated lead-acid battery. They'll also usually be noticeably lighter than the same lead battery.


The problem right now is figuring out what battery you actually need.

The system you have claims to be 36v, but it cannot be, because you only have one 12v battery according to the other thread, and if it were a 36v system, it would not operate on only one; it's controller would have a safety shutdown to prevent destroying the battery at about 30v or so (since a 12v lead acid battery is "dead" at about 10v).

But if it's not already a 36v system, you can't just plug in a 36v battery; that could damage the electronics.

Another problem is that a 36v system will draw only about 1/3 the amps (current) to make the same power that a 12v system does, so if yours is 12v, it's three times as hard on the battery as it would be if it was 36v. So if it is a 350W system, then if it were 36v, it would only draw about 10A or so from the battery. But a 12v system draws 30A to do the same thing, and that's a lot harder on teh battery, so the battery can't deliver the same total range.



So you first need to find out whether your system is really 12v, or 36v.

The simplest is to look at your charger. If it has a label, you can take a picture of it and attach that picture to your post so we can see it, or you can type out everything it says on the label *exactly* as it says it. Uusally a 12v system will have a charger with a max voltage of around 13.6-14.4v.

Alternately, if you have only one battery in the entire system, and there are none hidden in other compartments, and you replaced it with a 12v battery, and the system still operated normally, at the same speed as before, with the same readings on the battery meter under the same ride conditions, then it is a 12v system.

If you have a voltmeter or multimeter you can set to 200VDC, you can verify the system voltage by finding the thickest wires that go into the controller box that runs the motor. (usually where most of the wires go into a metal or plastic box). If it's a 12v system it's probably a brushed motor, and so will have two thick wires going to the motor, and two thick wires going to the battery, and a few thin wires going elsewhere. You'd measure the voltage at each of the pairs of thick wires, with it turned on but not riding it, and see if you read just 12v or not.


Once you know if it's 12v or 36v, then you can find a battery that does what you need it to. A 12v battery has to be able to supply at least 30A without much voltage sag (meaning, how much the voltage drops while the system is moving you at the max power level), to provide the 350W your system is rated at. (assuming it actually only draws that much; you'd have ot use a wattmeter to verify this if you want to know for sure).

 

[Vaporizing2019]

Amberwolf, thanks so much for you detailed posting. I appreciate your help very much. My system has 36V. Here are the specs and details of my electric trike:

https://wheelywheels.com/products/mototec-electric-trike-36v-350w

The original lead battery was in Chinese. The only thing what I could read on it was 12V10ah, and Mr. Hu. The American store that sold me the trike does not many technical details. They just sell it. I tried to talk to the Chinese manufacturer and talked to them on the phone but they don't understand me and I don't understand them. :lol:

I would buy an external battery and a Pelican case, however, I am unsure how I can connect an external battery. The battery of my bike is under the hood if you look at above picture. In case I would add a battery, I have to connect it with the battery under the hood, correct?

I learned that if the ah is higher, the performance would be better. My problem is that the hood on my trike is just 7 inch high and most batteries with more ah, e.g. 24 or more ah are taller and broader need more place. They don't fit under my hood.

My current battery has these dimensions: 3.98 inch x 5.94 inch x 3.86 inch and I don't find any battery with the same size that has more thand 15 ah. Otherwise I would buy a 12V batttery say with 24 ah and solve my problem but when it does not fit in the space, what can I do?

 

[scootergrisen]

Is the last link your exact model?

Battery System: 36 Volts 10Ah (Three 12v Batteries)

It's sort of important to know for sure.
Just follow the wires on the battery.
They are connected in series if there are 3.
The two other batteries seems to be just below the top battery in the video i watched on the website.

But I guess it could have only one 12 volt battery and a DC-DC converter to make 12 volt into 36 volt.

If it worked fine for 4 years you could just get a similar battery for another 4 years of happy scooting.

But higher Ah or multiple batteries gives you more range.
Depends on your needs.
You could also have multi 12 volt batteries and use one at a time. Then you come home and switch to a fully charged battery in seconds without having to wait for charging.
And you can bring multiple batteries with you when you need to go longer and switch battery as they get discharged.
That way you only need to bring the batteries/weight you need.

Depends on your needs.

Ah, size, weight, price, range goes together.

You can mount quick connectors to the batteries so you can easily remove/connect the battery without tools.

You could take pictures of:
the battery so we can see all the text
where the battery sits in the vehicles so we can see if there are two more batteries below

 

[Vaporizing2019]

Hi Scootergrisen,

Thanks again for your helpful posting.

In below video, you can see my electric trike including the battery from my model. The new models have 3 batteries, the one that I bought 4 years ago has one battery like in this video. There are no batteries below. It is also no pack of three. It is just one battery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ee_Fhi1aT0&t=301s&ab_channel=BigToysUSA

The battery has not much room as you can see. The hood that goes over the motor and the battery is just 7 inch high. Most batteries with more ah are wider about as high or higher than the hood.

The Mighty Max battery which indeed might be just a starter battery, it says 15.6 x 10.5 x 10.9 cm. It fits exactly in the trike however it does not give me the range that I need.

Very interesting that you say that one can connect an outside battery. Would you by any chance know where I could buy such connectors?

I found a local mechanic here, who might can help me with installing them. But I sure would prefer one 15.6 x 10.5 x 10.9 cm battery with high ah.

Thanks again for being so helpful, Scootergrisen, bless you.

 

[scootergrisen]

the one that I bought 4 years ago has one battery like in this video. There are no batteries below

The vehicle in the video have 3 batteries.


New batteries needs charges/discharges before you get the full capacity i think.
So try using it like 20 charges/discharges and see if the range gets to what you expected.

The information is lacking but on https://www.mightymaxbattery.com/shop/12v-sla-batteries/ml12-12-12-volt-12-ah-sla-battery-f2-terminal/ it says for electric vehicles and Medical Mobility so maybe the battery is correct:

Mighty Max SLA batteries are utilized in a wide variety of applications including; Consumer Electronics, Electric Vehicles, Engine Starters, Golf Carts, Hunting, Lawn and Garden Tools, Medical Mobility, Motorcycles, Power sports, Portable Tools, Solar, Toys and Hobby, Access Control Devices, Emergency Lighting, Security and more.

Ah and size goes together.
Forget about the original cover and put in the battery you want and then make a new cover.

Take some pictures so people can suggest something.

It might be better for you to just have one big battery installed permanently for simplicity.
Personally i like the idea of only bringing the weight/batteries i need and that i can switch to a fully charged battery in a few seconds instead of having to wait hours to ride again. But maybe its not a problem for you.

I think my scooter with 2 lithium batteries is far more useful than it would have been if i only had 1 battery.
But maybe you can just use this vehicle with one battery and then think about what vehicle you are going to get next in the future.

 

[Vaporizing2019]

Hi Scootergrisen,

Mine looks exactly like this but just has one battery. The lower batteries are not in my trike. I'll ask my mechanic if he can make me a higher cover so that I can use a battery with more ah.

I will also try to charge and discharge the battery to see if I get more range. I used it approx. 5 times yet, still not getting more range from it.

Actually, changing the hood to have more space for the battery is a great idea.

I will post more pictures if the mechanic in my neck of the woods can't solve my problem.

It is just a simple trike. One day in the future I will upgrade to something better.

What kind of scooter do you drive?

I like the trike because I have to ride approx. 3 miles to the next grocery store and 3 miles back to my modest home. I don't like balancing just two weels with bags of groceries. That is why I decided to buy a trike.

When the time for a new trike comes, I think I will get one that allows more volts and ah, particularly in winter because batteries are working less effectively when it is cold.

In the meantime, thanks a million for all the advice that you gave me.

:thumb:

 

[amberwolf]

If you only have one 12v battery, then your system does NOT have 36v, it has 12v.

If your system does have 36v, measured with a meter by you, then you don't have just one 12v battery, you have three, in series.

So...since what you have doesn't match what the specs on the website for your trike say, you have to measure the actual voltage if you want to know for sure.

If you don't test this, you can't upgrade the system, or even replace what was there, because you can't know that you are actually replacing *all* of the necessary parts.

If it is 36v, then there are two batteries not under that "hood" that you have already looked in; they are somewhere else on the trike you haven't looked yet.

If there are NOT two other batteries, it is NOT 36v.

It's not all that likely for it to be only a 12v system....

What does your charger's label have on it? I would bet it is more like 42v to 45v (the full voltage of a 36v battery, depending on chemistry and type).


Regarding "reading" Chinese, or other languages, if you have a smartphone, google has a translate app that can do a fair job on non-technical ideographic language.

Amberwolf, thanks so much for you detailed posting. I appreciate your help very much. My system has 36V. Here are the specs and details of my electric trike:

https://wheelywheels.com/products/mototec-electric-trike-36v-350w

The original lead battery was in Chinese. The only thing what I could read on it was 12V10ah, and Mr. Hu. The American store that sold me the trike does not many technical details. They just sell it. I tried to talk to the Chinese manufacturer and talked to them on the phone but they don't understand me and I don't understand them. :lol:

I would buy an external battery and a Pelican case, however, I am unsure how I can connect an external battery. The battery of my bike is under the hood if you look at above picture. In case I would add a battery, I have to connect it with the battery under the hood, correct?

I learned that if the ah is higher, the performance would be better. My problem is that the hood on my trike is just 7 inch high and most batteries with more ah, e.g. 24 or more ah are taller and broader need more place. They don't fit under my hood.

My current battery has these dimensions: 3.98 inch x 5.94 inch x 3.86 inch and I don't find any battery with the same size that has more thand 15 ah. Otherwise I would buy a 12V batttery say with 24 ah and solve my problem but when it does not fit in the space, what can I do?

 

[john61ct]

There are single-unit 36V batteries out there

 

[amberwolf]

Yes.

However, the statements he has made say he has only one *12v* battery.

If his system is actually 36v, then there are two other 12v batteries he has not found yet, probably under some other cover.


The link he has provided for the specs for his trike say specifically that it has three 12v batteries in it. (though it contradicts itself on the capacity, 12Ah in one place, 10Ah in the other. It also contradicsts itself on range, giving 20 miles in one place, and 20km in another.).

"MotoTec 36v 350w Electric Trike\nThe MotoTec Electric Trike 36v 350w aka Personal Transporter is a three-wheel electric scooter that you can ride while sitting or standing, this makes it very convenient for use at events, security, and warehouse floor operations, or for just plain fun! It's like a three-wheel Segway but at a fraction of the price! Powered by a 350-watt front wheel hub motor. MotoTec Electric Trike 36v 350w can achieve a 20 plus mile range on a full charge. It features a 16" pneumatic front tire, two 4" pneumatic rear tires, and a removable seat. This personal transporter is easy-to-operate with a twist throttle and left handle front drum brake system. Comes standard with a key, battery meter light, front LED headlight, and carrying basket.
A three-wheeler for the young at heart, the MotoTec Electric Trike 36v 350w is a three-wheeler for the youthful at heart. The 350-watt electric motor is housed in the front wheel hub. The power to handle 10-degree inclines and hills. You can go 20 to 25 kilometers on a single charge with the 36-volt battery system.
MT-TRK-350 Electric Trike Specifications

Motor power: 350 Watt Brushless Hub Motor
Battery: Three 12v 12ah Batteries (36v total)
Max Weight Capacity: 220 Lbs.
Recommended Age: 13 and up
Battery System: 36 Volts 10Ah (Three 12v Batteries)
Charger Included
Battery life: Over 300 charges
Recharge time: 4-8hrs
Climbing Ability: 10 Degrees
Seat: Wide Saddle
Seat Height: Adjustable (24 into 28.5in from ground)
Front Wheel Diameter: 16\/2.125 inch air-filled tires
Rear Tires Diameter: 2.80\/2.50-4 inch air-filled tires (9 inches tall)
Shipping Weight: 95 lbs
Shipping Carton Size: 34x32x20 inches
Scooter Weight: 78 Lbs
Scooter Dimensions: Length: 41 inches, Width: 27 inches, Height: 45 inches
Folded Height: 29 inches
Ground Clearance: 4.25 inches
Warranty: 30 days parts replacement

 

[eMark]

• Battery: Three 12v 12Ah Batteries (36v total) ... 350w brushless motor

https://wheelywheels.com/products/mototec-electric-trike-36v-350w?variant=40118347366554&gclid=CjwKCAiA1JGRBhBSEiwAxXblwaQiuutuf4KYv5O_mJH1waC6GDJ4DHOZrE7gazrwXtPUBA9GjjNHHxoCEO4QAvD_BwE

https://www.amazon.com/Mighty-Max-Battery-Replacement-Electric/dp/B094PWPBWN ... six batteries for $150
Carry the other 3 fully charged batteries in protective case in the basket. As a reserve trio (when needed) for 24Ah capacity. Assuming it isn't too much bother to remove the three depleted and replace with the other three fully charged. You may want to make a few modificatons for quicker change.

Buy six 10Ah Mighty-Max batteries for 20Ah capacity costing $128 ...
https://www.amazon.com/Mighty-Max-Battery-ML10-12-Requires/dp/B00K9Q6ZBI/ref=rvi_7/132-0015169-3860021

After doing the switch a few times you should get good at doing the change in no more than 10-15 minutes. Depending on your weight and terrain even at 24Ah total capacity it may not get you more than 25 miles. When they claim you can get up to 20 miles with just the three (36v) Mighty-Max 12Ah batteries it's more likely closer to 12 miles unless you only weigh 85 lbs. Besides you don't want to deplete the first 3 batteries before changeover to the other 3 batteries.

 

[Vaporizing2019]

Thanks eMark for your expertise.

I will ask my local mechanic if he can install additional batteries as suggested by you.

 

[Vaporizing2019]

Amerwolf, neither I nor my local mechanic found two more batteries. I will ask him to look again.

If I decide for an additional or two additional outside batteries, how can I attach them from under the hood to outside? Maybe my mechanic knows but what if he doesn't?

 

[Vaporizing2019]

John61, do you know a link with a 36v one battery body? I would appreciate it.

 

[Vaporizing2019]

Hi Amberwolf, it says this on my charger:

Hengguang Power
Model: HG6S360160
Input: 100 - 240 V
50/60 Hz
0.85 A
Output 36 V ---1.6A
Class 2 power unit.

If you wonder, I bought in from a US store but would have bought made in the USA if I would have found one for my budget. Unfortunately, made in USA is so much more expensive and if you look at the parts, they were likely made in China too.

 

[john61ct]

Just google

36V sealed battery

OR

36V AGM battery

OR

36V GEL battery

I assume you don't want to mess with FLA

So did you verify the voltage of your battery?

 

[scootergrisen]

I have this scooter and 2 lithium-ion batteries.
There is room for 1 battery under the seat.
When i need to go for a long ride i can bring the second battery.
Only one battery is connected at a time.

Just take some pictures of everything so people can see what you got and read what it says.

 

[999zip999]

lead is dead. Get a multimeter and put the meter at higher voltage as not to burn it out. Now test the voltage and always test polarity before hooking things up.
A lot of inexpensive 36 volt batteries like battery hookup.
Battery Hookup
Samsung EV Battery 44.4v 10ah 444wh
Regular price$59.99
This is not the battery that I recommend this is just some of the batteries they sell.
I also think you have three 12 volt batteries for 36 volts.

 

[eMark]

Thanks eMark for your expertise.

I will ask my local mechanic if he can install additional batteries as suggested by you.

Didn't mean adding 3 more batteries besides the three 12V 12Ah SLA batteries already in the enclosure. Unless someone already removed two of them. There is only enuf room for those 3 smaller 12v 12Ah Mighty-Max batteries.

What i meant is that when the first three are depleted (after so many miles) then you would remove them and install the other three fully charged Mighty-Max batteries temporarily stored in that front basket until needed.

Also that 36v Mototek is intended mostly for level paved bike lanes. Any incline over 10 degrees will significantly slow down that MotoTek. What you really could have used is the MotoTek with 500w motor and 48v power plant (4-12v batteries).

We can tell by the smaller 4" rear tires that his e-trike/scooter is intended for shorter casual neighborhood outings on level terrain.

I have this scooter and 2 lithium-ion batteries.
There is room for 1 battery under the seat.
When i need to go for a long ride i can bring the second battery.
Only one battery is connected at a time.

Just take some pictures of everything so people can see what you got and read what it says.

checkout what was previously posted for his MotoTec e-trike scooter specificatons ... https://wheelywheels.com/products/mototec-electric-trike-36v-350w ... also you can google to see several youtubes about his MotoTek 36V 350w motor and battery requirement.

 

[amberwolf]

Hi Amberwolf, it says this on my charger:

Hengguang Power
Model: HG6S360160
Input: 100 - 240 V
50/60 Hz
0.85 A
Output 36 V ---1.6A
Class 2 power unit.

If you wonder, I bought in from a US store but would have bought made in the USA if I would have found one for my budget. Unfortunately, made in USA is so much more expensive and if you look at the parts, they were likely made in China too.

Well, if it's a 36v charger, you definitely don't have a single 12v battery (or it would be severely overcharged and damaged or destroyed by the charger).

If the original battery you replaced was a 12v battery, and the new one was a 12v, then there *have* to be 24v worth of batteries somewhere else on the trike that you haven't found or replaced.

If the original battery you replaced was a 36v battery, and the new one was a 12v, the system almost certainly wouldn't have turned on (and whether it did or not, if you charged it with the 36v charger it would have damaged or destroyed it).

Even if it turned on and actually spun the motor, it almost certainly would not have gone very fast, probably only 1/3 the speed it did before (even if it's speed limited electronically rather than by the system voltage), and it would probably have had trouble with startups from a stop or going up any kind of slope.


If there are three 12v batteries and you only replaced one, you will only have the range of the worst-aged battery out of the original pair that is still installed, and it makes no difference what new 12v battery you install in place of the single one under the "hood", it will not fix that problem. You'd have to replace all three with new ones to get like-new range.


All that aside, even with the original battery, if the charger is literally only 36v, and not at least 40.8v for final voltage, then this would cause you problems with range, because your lead batteries would never be being fully charged.





There is an *extremely* small possiblity that they used a huge DC-DC converter from 12v to 36v (that can also convert back from 36v to 12v), or designed this into the controller itself, but this would be more expensive than using an actual 36v battery, and thus is highly unlikely.

It is much more likely that there actually are three 12v batteries on the trike, or a single 36v battery.



If you physically trace out the two wires that come off the 12v battery, you can find where they go, to find out where (or if) there are other battery compartments.

If they go elsewhere on the trike, then trace them from wherever they go until you find the entire route from one of the 12v battery terminals back to the other one. You can draw this all out on paper to make it easier to keep track of, in whatever fashion makes sense to you.

You will probably need a multimeter to do the wire tracing, but if all the wires are in the "open" (not inside multiwire cables) you can directly trace them just with your eyes and fingers.

If they go directly to the controller, and no other wires branch off from there to anywhere else, then it's probable that the original battery was not a single 12v battery, but was three of them in a block (possibly glued together, possibly all integrated into a single casing)--if tha's the case, then using a single 12v battery in it's place won't allow the trike to operate the way it should. At best, range will be a lot shorter and performance will be a lot worse. At worst it won't even turn on (which isn't the case according to your testing so far).

 

[amberwolf]

FWIW, the mototec site itself doesnt' have a manual for this trike, only a quick assembly guide
https://mototecusa.com/manuals/mototec/trike-350w-500w-quick-assembly.pdf does not show any battery at all so we can't see where they are supposed to be.

I highly recommend that you contact them directly
https://mototecusa.com/contact-us.aspx
http://support.bigtoysusa.com/
and ask them exactly where the batteries are located, and exactly which one(s) they use and how many, before you proceed with buying anything else for it.