CYC PHOTON

[raylo32]

I just dragged out my Kurt Kinetic fluid trainer and ran a quick Street Mode throttle test, results as follows. For whatever reason level 4 is strangely weak, just like I saw out on the bike with pedal torque power. I will look again but I don't believe there is a way to set individual levels when you have more than 3. So, the app is doing the math wrong... or something.

1. 50W
2. 300W
3. 300W
4. 250W
5. 800W

 

[raylo32]

I repeated the test in Race Mode. If you try this be aware that for level 5 in Race Mode you may need to add some drag to the roller to get a real reading. Otherwise, it overspeeds too quickly to reach max power which mine is set to 1200W for throttle. I put the toe of my shoe against the trainer's flywheel to add that drag. Level 4 was anomalously weak again. This seems like a firmware or app bug. I never saw this on the road because I usually ride in level 2 or 3 in Race Mode with a few bursts of 5. IOW not much experience riding in 4.

1. 100W
2. 450W
3. 450W
4. 400W
5. 1200W

 

[hindesite]

I repeated the test in Race Mode. If you try this be aware that for level 5 in Race Mode you may need to add some drag to the roller to get a real reading. Otherwise, it overspeeds too quickly to reach max power which mine is set to 1200W for throttle. I put the toe of my shoe against the trainer's flywheel to add that drag. Level 4 was anomalously weak again. This seems like a firmware or app bug. I never saw this on the road because I usually ride in level 2 or 3 in Race Mode with a few bursts of 5. IOW not much experience riding in 4.

1. 100W
2. 450W
3. 450W
4. 400W
5. 1200W

I'm actually a bit taken aback by this. I asked the question a couple of pages back, if any one knew how CYC derived the intermediate values when using more than the default 3 levels - but I was thinking more about whether they were interpolating by using 2 straight lines between the 3 levels or a Bezier curve (since 3 points are set by the user). Turns out, CYC have been more creative and done neither. Wow.

It makes sense to use low, mid and high settings instead of messing around with 5 or 9 sliders, but this current implementation doesn't seem at all useful. I'm assuming this was a feature added just before the SW102 and the app were available, since none of this is in any of the manuals for either.

Of course, we are relying on the system to display power, and we don't know if that is accurate either - I wonder if CYC have done any dyno testing to check their system.

 

[hardpebbles]

One strange thing to report from my last ride reported above... Inconsistent transition of boost between assist levels in Street Mode.

I know this has been discussed at least once but maybe someone has some new info?? I have my Photon display set to 5 levels of assist from the default 3. In the app I set mine up unrestricted, then modified street mode for a higher speed limit and to set the upper limit on power to 800 (was that also default??). In any case the question is how the app's three level settings (low, mid, high) then get translated to 5 (or 9 if you choose) levels in the display.

I was riding in Street Mode level 4 and the torque power assist topped out at 270W. That's all I wanted on that ride but it seems I should have had that in level 2 or 3. Then level 5 gave me all 800 so it was like a huge step from 4 to 5. Race mode does not behave like this and assist power seems to ramp up normally from one level to the next. Anyone else here seen this or similar? I need to test this again on a nearby hill.

Same for me, when setting to 5 levels, level 3 and 4 are the same.

 

[raylo32]

In my case 2 and 3 are the same and 4 is actually weaker than 2 and 3. At least on throttle. I suspect the same is true on pedal torque assist but it would take some time on the trainer to test that out.

Same for me, when setting to 5 levels, level 3 and 4 are the same.

 

[raylo32]

Yes, your question and discussion were what I was referring to. It would make sense... and be simple... for them to simply do a linear interpolation to calculate the intermediate power assist limits. But whatever they did they got the math wrong. And whether the displayed power is precisely accurate or not, the relative powers between levels are relevant for comparison. This is messed up and I hope they fix the firmware at some point. I may go back to 3 for now... IDK. I really like having 5 so you can get something between half and the max/min on either side. But level 4 especially is way off.

I'm actually a bit taken aback by this. I asked the question a couple of pages back, if any one knew how CYC derived the intermediate values when using more than the default 3 levels - but I was thinking more about whether they were interpolating by using 2 straight lines between the 3 levels or a Bezier curve (since 3 points are set by the user). Turns out, CYC have been more creative and done neither. Wow.

It makes sense to use low, mid and high settings instead of messing around with 5 or 9 sliders, but this current implementation doesn't seem at all useful. I'm assuming this was a feature added just before the SW102 and the app were available, since none of this is in any of the manuals for either.

Of course, we are relying on the system to display power, and we don't know if that is accurate either - I wonder if CYC have done any dyno testing to check their system.

 

[hardpebbles]

Yes, your question and discussion were what I was referring to. It would make sense... and be simple... for them to simply do a linear interpolation to calculate the intermediate power assist limits. But whatever they did they got the math wrong. And whether the displayed power is precisely accurate or not, the relative powers between levels are relevant for comparison. This is messed up and I hope they fix the firmware at some point. I may go back to 3 for now... IDK. I really like having 5 so you can get something between half and the max/min on either side.

Agreed. I really like the motor in use but it's the lack of attention to detail with bugs like this that make me think it shouldn't cost $1000... This is a simple calculation.

 

[raylo32]

Too bad the OSF guys can't program this one. The motor is good but the software is a bit of a mess. Maybe CYC should contract the OSF guys to fix it. They could easily make it right.

Agreed. I really like the motor in use but it's the lack of attention to detail with bugs like this that make me think it shouldn't cost $1000... This is a simple calculation.

 

[jeff51]

In my case 2 and 3 are the same and 4 is actually weaker than 2 and 3. At least on throttle. I suspect the same is true on pedal torque assist but it would take some time on the trainer to test that out.

So is it possible that while we’d be stuck to three levels of assist using the throttle we could still get five or nine different levels of assist in pedal assist?

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Too bad the OSF guys can't program this one. The motor is good but the software is a bit of a mess. Maybe CYC should contract the OSF guys to fix it. They could easily make it right.

I have better idea. Allow users to use VESC TOOL instead of that crapy cyc app made by some student!

VESC Tool – Aplikacje w Google Play

Narzędzia VESC można używać do konfigurowania sterowników silników zgodnych z VESC za pomocą BLE

play.google.com

 

[raylo32]

The problem is not the app... well, at least not this problem. The problem is in the display or controller firmware.

I have better idea. Allow users to use VESC TOOL instead of that crapy cyc app made by some student!

VESC Tool – Aplikacje w Google Play

Narzędzia VESC można używać do konfigurowania sterowników silników zgodnych z VESC za pomocą BLE

play.google.com

 

[raylo32]

No, you have only 1 "gear" setting and it applies across the board. The firmware calculates those intermediate levels both for throttle and pedal assist based on the limits you set in the app's 3 level sliders... and it is not consistent when you have it set for 5 or 9.

So is it possible that while we’d be stuck to three levels of assist using the throttle we could still get five or nine different levels of assist in pedal assist?

 

[raylo32]

So, I have been thinking of swapping the Photon from my old hardtail MTB to my nice Lynskey gravel bike but the cable and brake hose routing was problematic. I made a 3D printed standoff that will solve that problem. I printed it out of 96 hardness TPE so it is like a very hard rubber. Snaps onto the downtube and can be held there with a zip tie... or maybe just the Photon which will be rotated up against it. This bike would be an even better road machine than the hardtail what with 700c wheels for faster speeds. I'd also put on the CYC 50t chainring. Not going to do this right away since I am still enjoying the ride on the MTB. I may even get another Photon for this. We'll see...

 

[sysrq]

I ordered my photon from Golden Motor on April 20th and recieved it June 22nd. I also emailed them on June 15th to cancel my order because I had decided to go with a GMAC motor instead. They shipped it out that day. The squeaky wheel gets the grease I suppose? I feel kind of bad as I'm guessing they bumped me up the queue to save the order. Unless certain configurations are shipping sooner. Just for reference I ordered 34t chainring, ds103 display, with ebrakes, 175mm cranks, 73mm bottom bracket.

In my case first they asked to confirm the cancellation and then immediately after 4 hours sent another email with the pictures of the motor asking if my contact details are correct.
Since I wasn't able to access the email for 3 days I might be stuck with a something which basically is a fancy 500 W motor (according to atak_snajpera) with thermal throttling issues.

 

[Epithemeus]

In my case first they asked to confirm the cancellation and then immediately sent another email with the pictures of the motor asking if my contact details are correct.
Since I wasn't able to access the email for 3 days I might be stuck with a something which basically is a fancy 500 W motor (according to atak_snajpera) with thermal throttling issues.

I've got mine unrestricted and haven't run into thermal throttling yet. Highest I've seen was 80° and that was hauling a trailer full of camping stuff up a moderate hill (I'd guess 6-7%) at a decent speed (around 25km/h). I can't wait to try it on the 23% grade nearish me. Hope it works out for you. Let us know either way.

 

[raylo32]

I haven't gotten even close to thermal throttling on mine either. Riding it hard, unrestricted. Not sure why folks who haven't ridden this motor keep throwing that non issue up here. Very strange. Now, if anyone here is somehow planning to just buzz around on throttle at max assist, you will probably overheat. This is a pedelec system, primarily, IMO, and not designed as a e-motorcycle. But I am a pedaler of the bikes and this motor suits me perfectly so far. I am having a blast with it.

I've got mine unrestricted and haven't run into thermal throttling yet. Highest I've seen was 80° and that was hauling a trailer full of camping

 

[sysrq]

I haven't gotten even close to thermal throttling on mine either. Riding it hard, unrestricted. Not sure why folks who haven't ridden this motor keep throwing that non issue up here. Very strange. Now, if anyone here is somehow planning to just buzz around on throttle at max assist, you will probably overheat. This is a pedelec system, primarily, IMO, and not designed as a e-motorcycle. But I am a pedaler of the bikes and this motor suits me perfectly so far. I am having a blast with it.

Might cause it's a risky purchase depending on a specific application and everyone has a different result due to widely variable conditions.

 

[hindesite]

...
I might be stuck with a something which basically is a fancy 500 W motor (according to atak_snajpera) with thermal throttling issues.

Or you might be stuck with something that you will really, really enjoy - as I do mine. Also, don't forget how much the app sucks

Highest temp I've seen is 81C, that would have been after a >30% climb. You are only going to run into thermal throttling if you are in a hurry and going up steep hills, in which case you may have chosen the wrong motor and you can't blame CYC for that. For the intended usage this motor - as a pedal assist system, not a motorcycle - I have no complaints and I'm really impressed with it.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

81C is still very high. I have never seen such high temps on my cyc stealth.

 

[raylo32]

But you don't get extra credit just for being cooler. As long as the temps are low enough you are good to go. And the example Hindesite provided and from what I have seen in my use is that those temps come only on very steep extended climbs at high assist and high speed. And it still doesn't reach critical level. Yes, if you try to time trial up the Puy De Dome or Alpe D'Huez under max assist you might have issues. But that isn't happening.

81C is still very high. I have never seen such high temps on my cyc stealth.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

I hope that magnets won't peel off like on CYC PRO GEN3 due to high temps

 

[raylo32]

I haven't had that problem with my X1 gen2. I run 52V battery and IIRC is set up for 2000W. But I don't run it continuously anywhere near that level. Again using mostly as pedelec. But some short 45 mph throttle runs are fun. And I am not sure why Stealth would be any different since they probably use similar motor and magnet designs.

I hope that magnets won't peel off like on CYC PRO GEN3 due to high temps

 

[raylo32]

These guys apparently have an expectation... unrealistic, IMO... that you should be able to go at 100% power constantly and indefinitely, like the fake pedaling BBS throttle jockeys. That is not what these motors are made for and that's fine with me. With torque sensors these are pedelec bikes to be ridden on varied terrain. Like my typical road rides of about 30 miles with 2000 feet of climbing. Not a challenge for Photon at all even averaging well over 20 MPH.

Or you might be stuck with something that you will really, really enjoy - as I do mine. Also, don't forget how much the app sucks

Highest temp I've seen is 81C, that would have been after a >30% climb. You are only going to run into thermal throttling if you are in a hurry and going up steep hills, in which case you may have chosen the wrong motor and you can't blame CYC for that. For the intended usage this motor - as a pedal assist system, not a motorcycle - I have no complaints and I'm really impressed with it.

View attachment 336624

 

[raylo32]

Pretty good video although it was far longer than it needed to be to show this issue. I am surprised CYC only used little dovetails to retain the magnets. I would have thought that they could have made full reverse wedge slots... and wedge shaped magnets... but that might mean the motor might have to be a little larger and heavier. But this Gen 3 design still looks superior to my Gen 2 with glued on magnets. And remember this particular failure wasn't just high temp related but high RPM. He was apparently really pushing it for all it was worth under full throttle with a 72V battery and controller. Those of us who ride mostly pedelec may never have such a problem. I suspect CYC are already working on Gen 4.

I hope that magnets won't peel off like on CYC PRO GEN3 due to high temps

 

[steve s]

I think this motor was designed with my riding style in mind. My current set up is a bbs02 on a 700c marin Muir woods commuter while the bbs is doing great it's mileage may be a good excuse to buy the photon. The lighter weight ,build quality ,and hopefully more efficient torque sensing makes it appealing for me . One question I have though is how many assist levels can I set? I like riding my bbs with nine levels and fine tuning the power level to keep my exercise level and speed where I want. I know this will be different with torque sensing.