CYC PHOTON

[sysrq]

If you do that, you'll just be wasting expensive parts for no benefit. Mid drives wreck your chain drive components, and close gear spacing doesn't matter when you have superhuman amounts of power to work with.

Feeding a 12 speed system to a mid drive is the same as feeding a fancy vegan restaurant meal to a dog. It's extravagant and pointless, all over very quickly, and the dog doesn't even enjoy it much.

Check out Microshift Acolyte 8. You can get the whole deal-- rear derailleur, shifter, and cassette-- for less than the price of some 12 speed cassettes.

Close spacing still makes sense while pedalling on the flats with the motor off especially during long distance commuting when legs get tired.

 

[richj8990]

If the Marlin 8 has a 73mm English BB and the 12-speed rear is 135 O.L.D., I think the Photon chain line would be 49.8mm - and again, I think, likely moving the chain line out on a 12-speed cassette approx. 1.25 gear positions.

For my 9-speed, I figured it moved out 1 gear. Based on other's experiences, if you use a quality chain, keep after maintenance, monitor chain stretch, and be nice while shifting, the 12-speed drivetrain may hold up better than one would expect - especially if your intent is to pedal it mostly.

Also depends on whether, in analog form, the bike's chain line was centered originally.

Damned if I can remember though if the CYC Photon chainrings support 12-speed chains.

I heard SRAM 12-speed can work with 135mm dropouts, but Shimano's cannot, the 12-speed cassette width is just a couple mm too large for the chain to clear the frame in the top 10T cog.

 

[hindesite]

I heard SRAM 12-speed can work with 135mm dropouts, but Shimano's cannot, the 12-speed cassette width is just a couple mm too large for the chain to clear the frame in the top 10T cog.

I don't think that is correct. 135mm bikes are available with 12sp from other manufacturers, too. For example, Silverback Stride 29".

Maybe they move the larger gear inboard a little to make things work?

 

[richj8990]

I don't think that is correct. 135mm bikes are available with 12sp from other manufacturers, too. For example, Silverback Stride 29".

Maybe they move the larger gear inboard a little to make things work?

Let me clarify...

There are actually two sets of 12-speed cassettes: XD driver and HG driver. XD is the one that has the smallest cog as 10 (or sometimes 9) and needs special hubs. HG is the standard hub that the older-style wheels can accept for the 12-speed cassette, usually 11-51T but I think they range from 11-46 to 11-52. Not sure if they have 11-42 but they have more narrow range stuff for road biking. The XD is 10-46, 50, 51, 52.

Things are pretty obscure online about this, but supposedly the 12-speed XD cassettes are about 1.5mm wider than the 11 or 12-speed HG cassettes. Sounds trivial, but the chain may rub against the 135mm frame dropout with that extra width. It's similar to some 11-speed cassettes not being able to fit on a 10-speed freehub (and I know many of the direct drive freehubs that accept cassettes will not go past 10-speed). Chain will not rub for 142mm thru-axle frames, just 135. Most of us with 11-speed have had the experience of the cassette lockring sometimes rubbing against a 135mm frame, so it's no surprise a chain could rub. Really depends on the frame, alignment, quality, blah blah blah.

If you ask me, the 11-xx 12-speed cassettes are pretty useless unless someone is road biking. I don't really see the point of upgrading to 12-speed unless someone also does the XD rear wheel and goes to 10-xx for the cassette, so they can get the extra 10% range. They already have 11-52t cassettes for 11-speed, so adding one gear and keeping the same range really doesn't do much offroad especially for an e-bike.

 

[raylo32]

I totally agree. See my post above about my broken display or firmware. I believe, but am not 100% sure, that all I need is a new SW102, but I suppose there is a chance that the problem might instead live in the controller which would require a full replacement. The "process" of working with the dealer is terrible. Slow to respond... in fact, did NOT respond at all for 3 weeks until pinged again... then you get into a stupid e-mail tag team with stupid questions and suggestions to do things I already tried 5 weeks ago. Now CYC and the dealer are consulting on the path forward and all I can do is wait to hear something, sometime... when? Who knows?

And from afar, the dealer seems to me to be a shoestring small business that is probably overwhelmed just handling their online e-commerce and in-shop customers and haven't planned to flesh out a real tech support and repair infrastructure. So here I am at 6 weeks in and still have no idea if and when I'll have my system repaired or replaced. I really should just return it for a refund, I suppose.

Not being able to get parts and do DIY repairs may be a deal breaker going forward for me if this sort of stuff keeps happening. It's a shame, because I like the hardware.

The system of CYC company (Photon model and others) is not a real DIY system such as Tongsheng or Bafang.
Their principle of constantly referring to the seller is wrong. The CYC company wants to imitate the Boschs of this world by forcing the customer to resort to the salesman for the services. This marketing is doomed to failure.
In my opinion, if you are capable of modifying an existing bike to make it an e-bike, then definitely you should have access to service books and parts for maintenance and repair.
I absolutely hate that what I buy with my money does not seem to belong to me.
Their vision of after-sales service seems wrong to me. According to CYC, the motor should be sent back to the seller for simple cleaning and lubrication. No service book is available for the Photon model.
It is precisely to avoid being at the mercy of the Boschs of this world that I preferred a DIY system.

I bought two Photon Kits from a CYC company reseller. One of the two has a problem and I had to return the entire Kit to the seller knowing that the problem could be a defective torque sensor.
In any case, if the future for maintenance and repair is to go through the dealer then these two engines will be for sale in a short time.

When I bought my two Tongsheng TSDZ2 motors one was perfect and the second one had quality control issues. So in the end, the quality control of the CYC company seems to me to need improvement.

While waiting for the return of the defective Photon engine, I reinstalled my old TSDZ2 engine. And this TSDZ2 engine has done 22,000km and still runs A1. I estimate the wait time for the return of my Photon engine to be around a month.

What is difficult to understand from the manufacturer CYC is that he tells you that this engine must be lubricated at 2000km but without any information on how to do it. I hope CYC doesn't think I'm going to send the engine back to the seller for a simple lubrication.

I have a lot of questions in my head.

 

[raylo32]

And in the meantime, I am canceling my order for a second Photon for another bike. I'll maybe look to try another down the road if and when the bugs get resolved and the whole "dealer support" issue gets better somehow. I am not willing to take a chance on a second one when trying to get one fixed is already too much of a PITA.

 

[richj8990]

And in the meantime, I am canceling my order for a second Photon for another bike. I'll maybe look to try another down the road if and when the bugs get resolved and the whole "dealer support" issue gets better somehow. I am not willing to take a chance on a second one when trying to get one fixed is already too much of a PITA.

Photon's single chain aside, here is the $64 question: are there any companies out there that normally make dual chain drives for mid-motors that are reliable and back their motors with real 2+ year warranties. As in Cyclone, CYC, Bikee Bike, and some of the Chinese off-brand companies. Not trying to be a rhetorical question...is there any of them out there that make reliable mid-drives. Because from what I've heard and read, the answer is more or less no.

 

[raylo32]

I think we were talking retrofits, not proprietary engines for specifically built frames.

Dyname - e-bike drive systems
Exclusively for:
Powerplay model from Rocky Mountain

 

[raylo32]

Oh, I'd say that my TSDZ2 was reliable. Or at least reliable enough considering the cost. Never broke, never left me stranded, repair parts are plentiful and cheap, etc. Yeah, I'd prefer more robust hardware and especially an ISIS spindle like on Photon. But still... it works. Especially on OSF.

Photon's single chain aside, here is the $64 question: are there any companies out there that normally make dual chain drives for mid-motors that are reliable and back their motors with real 2+ year warranties. As in Cyclone, CYC, Bikee Bike, and some of the Chinese off-brand companies. Not trying to be a rhetorical question...is there any of them out there that make reliable mid-drives. Because from what I've heard and read, the answer is more or less no.

 

[Joakim]

Yeah the mix of

- installing the motor yourself (which rather few people are comfortable doing, even need special tools for cranks etc)
- maybe having to send the motor to a dealer/hong kong for simple/routine problems

is a bad mix

 

[raylo32]

But it does have that strong ISIS axle! Too bad TSDZ2 doesn't change to that.

Yeah the mix of

- installing the motor yourself (which rather few people are comfortable doing, even need special tools for cranks etc)
- maybe having to send the motor to a dealer/hong kong for simple/routine problems

is a bad mix

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

TSDZ2 does not change at all. It is basically the same concept since 2019. As long as people keep buy it nothing will change/improve. Simple!

 

[raylo32]

Yes, just like BBS. But these mfgs might take a lesson from CYC that here in the wealthier west there is $ to be made by selling more premium versions.

TSDZ2 does not change at all. It is basically the same concept since 2019. As long as people keep buy it nothing will change/improve. Simple!

 

[Joakim]

But it does have that strong ISIS axle! Too bad TSDZ2 doesn't change to that.

Yeah I kind of want to pay $$$ to get that axle, but when it seems I sacrifice reliability at the same time I cant motivate it

Might be worth it anyway, using my tsdz2 for backup when the photon is ”away for service”… but then again I have to wait 6 months to even get the photon delivered?

 

[raylo32]

I believe they will work these Photon bugs out soon. And there will be more supply and more dealers. It looks like Eco Cycles in Nashville, where I got my TSDZ2, are also going to be selling and servicing Photon and other CYC so that will help us here in the US. But whether these motors are worth the cost or not is still an open question.

Yeah I kind of want to pay $$$ to get that axle, but when it seems I sacrifice reliability at the same time I cant motivate it

Might be worth it anyway, using my tsdz2 for backup when the photon is ”away for service”… but then again I have to wait 6 months to even get the photon delivered?

 

[Mongo]

Any idea what's up with Eco Cycles? Their e-commerce site has been in transition for quite some time.

I still feel that the D.I.Y. community will do Photon regreasing ourselves, by hook or crook. Time to start overthinking the grease brand and type, 'cause that's what's done.

 

[raylo32]

Not sure what is up with the Eco-Cycles e-commerce. Seems they are working through some serious tech challenges which one would think shouldn't really happen these days. Too bad, because I really like doing business with them. Back in the day when I got my first TSDZ2 it got delayed for some reason and they comped me a brass drive gear for my troubles.

As for the regreasing... I bet it gets figured out. Too many folks here will not be able to just let this go without disassembling a Photon. But really, these motors are sealed and not subject to any sort of combustion or other consuming process, so where can the existing grease be "disappearing" to in the first place?

Any idea what's up with Eco Cycles? Their e-commerce site has been in transition for quite some time.

I still feel that the D.I.Y. community will do Photon regreasing ourselves, by hook or crook. Time to start overthinking the grease brand and type, 'cause that's what's done.

 

[raylo32]

But they do sell spare parts for X1 Pro... and maybe also Stealth. I have bought some items directly from CYC in HK. Chainrings, freewheel 2.0, etc. And they sell the controllers and replacement motors. Not sure how now with Photon everything seems to have gone to hell in a handbasket. Maybe it's just because it is new and parts will come available as the demand flattens out? IDK. But even though I like the hardware I am not buying another until my first one is fixed. Then we'll see.

Would I buy a Photon motor from Cie CYC?

No! And here's why:

I don't think the CYC Co. is strong enough to distribute their products worldwide.

They are proud to say that they will never sell their product via China and Hong Kong, and that spare parts will only be available from their authorized sellers. To do this, you need a well-trained global team and ensure sufficient stock of spare parts at each of their suppliers. To have a solid base in different countries it takes money, a lot of money.
And first of all, they must have flawless quality control. Their future is based on the quality of their products. One false step here and it's death. Their marketing seems very naïve to me.

Their clientele consists of people who can handle maintenance. When a part replacement is needed, they will order on Aliexpress, Amazon and others for as fast delivery as possible and at a good price. CYC products are assembled in Hong Kong, therefore in China. In China they can produce products with high specifications. You just have to ask.

It is true that the machining quality of Cie CYC seems superior to others. This should be accompanied by quick and affordable access to spare parts. In addition, all technical information for repair and maintenance should be accessible.

No, I do not recommend buying a CYC product. Just thinking about the aria to get after-sales service makes me say *No*.

 

[Joakim]

Yeah they should change strategy completely, just sell everything online, have everything in stock, spare parts and all. Document service protocols. The products are well designed enough to become a ”gold standard” for do it yourself e-bikes

Sounds like a win-win to me

Edit: if they indeed sell spare parts for the other motors then its pretty close! Just do the same for photon, document maintenance, and have things in stock

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

They sell parts for cyc stealth. They have everything you need. Controller, torque sensor, planetary gear ,motor and so on. Recently I had to buy a new torque sensor for my stealth. I decided to buy IT from fasterbikes.eu instead of cyc due to longer 2 year warranty (cyc will give you only 1 year)

 

[raylo32]

One area CYC is lacking in is in firmware servicing. There is no setting on the display or utility in the app to reset, update, or upgrade firmware. It isn't clear to me how improvements or new features are to be implemented... or how issues like mine are to be resolved. That is, without taking or sending the entire kit to a dealer. That is a big SNAFU, IMO. I mean we deal with firmware updates on just about everything we own these days. And many of us here are veterans at flashing OSF into our TSDZ2s and their displays.... but we can't maintain or fix the firmware on these CYC motors? At least not as far as I can tell.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

First they Would have to update their unfinished app. Personaly I have zero Hope Because older app for Asi bac had not been updated neither.

 

[pxl666]

as I read this thread out of sheer curiosity I'm more and more amazed by how bad this looks apart from marketing point of view...

 

[latevance]

Just an update if you have been on this thread for awhile on my issue with not being able to change my wheel size from 29 to anything else in the Photon display or app. CYC confirmed my thought that I have a defective SW102 hardware or corrupted SW102 firmware. Unfortunately, unlike TSDZ2, I can't just pull out my ST Visual programmer and try reflashing it. It needs to be replaced... which means going through the vendor, etc. which has been pretty painful so far. Ugghhh. That is the downside to this system... no way for the user to do any of this stuff so we are at the mercy of CYC and their dealers. To be fair, CYC are on the ball and very responsive, but still, this is going on a month now trying to get it resolved. Luckily it is a relatively minor issue... at least this time.

I have been reading this thread as I am interested in a Photon for my Giant bike, but not keen if there are no parts available for the time the warranty runs out and I need to repair it at home myself. Correct me if I am wrong, but they sell lots of parts on their website. I have read what you have posted here and also further down about needing a new display and do not understand as I can see on the Cyc website that they sell the SW102 display for $79. I cannot see that they sell a seperate controller, but I expect this may change when the first buyers warranties have expired, or at least be addressed by third party manufacturers as is the case with TSDZ, Bafang etc. I can see they sell chainrings which is good as I would not want to be stuck with the one I chose on ordering. Is it because the displays are not for sale locally, or that the actual firmware is not made available for you to flash onto any sw102 yourself? Do the likes of TSDZ and Bafang supply proprietary firmware or do you have to send it back under warranty, or buy a new display if it is not a warranty claim or you cannot wait, want a spare etc? How does the repairability (taking apart etc) during the warranty period compare with Bafang and TSDZ? Do these other companies let you self diagnose and repair without voiding the warranty?

I have read that a lot of the posts are concerned with re-greasing and I noted that Cyc do not sell/list grease specifically for the Photon which may be concerning, but then again if I thought my Photon was making excessive noise due to lack of grease before the warranty was up then I would definetly arrange to RMA it. Why are users concerned with re-greasing before the warranty is over. Users often want to make their unit better, quieter maybe and a bit more, or questionably better grease is a tempting easy 'upgrade' for those who are savy enough, and are itching to take apart their motor in order to 'improve it'. The fact is, however well intended, adding more grease (quiet often too much), questionably better grease when it is not really necessary can do nothing to improve it, in fact it can be very detrimental to mess about adding more grease as it will just put more stress on the motor. Maybe it is enough to just scratch that itch that makes us want to take things apart and 'fix' them.

I am also concerned that apparently some have stated that the unit is not serviceable and cannot be taken apart. Is there anything preventing the unit from being dis-assembled? I doubt anyone would want to do that at the moment as it would void the warranty, but is there anything preventing me from taking it apart and doing what I want to it when it is not better to send it back for repair under warranty? I expect that a lot more internal parts will become available in a year or so when warranties start to run out. Surely if there is a demand for parts then it will be filled as it has been with the well mentioned TSDZ and Bafang mid drive.

I think it is early days for me yet, and it is best to wait until the first units sold are nearing the end of the warranties (couple of years is it?) and then to see what has been made available for the Photon in terms of third party replacement parts. Interesting to see what develops with the controllers regarding possible OSF, or wether someone is able to access it with the open source Vesc tool and download/upload firmware etc. Time will tell, but from what I read here and elsewhere, Cyc seem to very good and responsive at sorting out any warranty claims. I have heard of no cases where they have not offered to repair/replace the unit according to their warranty terms and conditions. In the meantime I will continue to read this thread (and others). Keep us informed (oh I know you will, lol) on how you progress with your display problem. Personally, if it is going to mean waiting for a new display from Cyc anyway, then I would just send it all back under warranty from where you purchased it from and have it sorted out properly. Or is there a reason you cannot do that?

 

[raylo32]

It isn't clear to me if my problem is the display or the controller itself. CYC and the vendor haven't specifically made that judgement or report, at least to me. I am not sure they know. It seems to me that step one would be to reflash the firmware for each and see what happens. But I can't do that. As for other mfgs providing firmware, probably not directly, but TSDZ2 at least allows the dealers like EcoBikes to tweak the OEM firmware and post it to their sites for users to download and flash. They have a full tutorial there for flashing the OEM firmware as well as for OSF.

As for disassembly and greasing... it is early and these are new motors, so no one here has taken that on yet. I have always been skeptical of the need to grease these things very often or at all since they are sealed and there is no process of consumption in an electric motor. Maybe over time the heat causes some of it to leave as off gas? IDK. So, I am not terribly worried about the grease part myself.

As for CYC being good at sorting warranty claims? IDK. They are responsive to inquiries, but they sure have been slow at identifying my problem and giving a path forward. Maybe just the growing pains of this new motor. We'll see. But I'd rather not have to ship this back for it to be repaired under warranty. I'd rather they just give me the parts, if needed, and tools (firmwares) to do it myself. Or get a full replacement since it was this way out of the box.

I have been reading this thread as I am interested in a Photon for my Giant bike, but not keen if there are no parts available for the time the warranty runs out and I need to repair it at home myself. Correct me if I am wrong, but they sell lots of parts on their website. I have read what you have posted here and also further down about needing a new display and do not understand as I can see on the Cyc website that they sell the SW102 display for $79. I cannot see that they sell a seperate controller, but I expect this may change when the first buyers warranties have expired, or at least be addressed by third party manufacturers as is the case with TSDZ, Bafang etc. I can see they sell chainrings which is good as I would not want to be stuck with the one I chose on ordering. Is it because the displays are not for sale locally, or that the actual firmware is not made available for you to flash onto any sw102 yourself? Do the likes of TSDZ and Bafang supply proprietary firmware or do you have to send it back under warranty, or buy a new display if it is not a warranty claim or you cannot wait, want a spare etc? How does the repairability (taking apart etc) during the warranty period compare with Bafang and TSDZ? Do these other companies let you self diagnose and repair without voiding the warranty?

I have read that a lot of the posts are concerned with re-greasing and I noted that Cyc do not sell/list grease specifically for the Photon which may be concerning, but then again if I thought my Photon was making excessive noise due to lack of grease before the warranty was up then I would definetly arrange to RMA it. Why are users concerned with re-greasing before the warranty is over. Users often want to make their unit better, quieter maybe and a bit more, or questionably better grease is a tempting easy 'upgrade' for those who are savy enough, and are itching to take apart their motor in order to 'improve it'. The fact is, however well intended, adding more grease (quiet often too much), questionably better grease when it is not really necessary can do nothing to improve it, in fact it can be very detrimental to mess about adding more grease as it will just put more stress on the motor. Maybe it is enough to just scratch that itch that makes us want to take things apart and 'fix' them.

I am also concerned that apparently some have stated that the unit is not serviceable and cannot be taken apart. Is there anything preventing the unit from being dis-assembled? I doubt anyone would want to do that at the moment as it would void the warranty, but is there anything preventing me from taking it apart and doing what I want to it when it is not better to send it back for repair under warranty? I expect that a lot more internal parts will become available in a year or so when warranties start to run out. Surely if there is a demand for parts then it will be filled as it has been with the well mentioned TSDZ and Bafang mid drive.

I think it is early days for me yet, and it is best to wait until the first units sold are nearing the end of the warranties (couple of years is it?) and then to see what has been made available for the Photon in terms of third party replacement parts. Interesting to see what develops with the controllers regarding possible OSF, or wether someone is able to access it with the open source Vesc tool and download/upload firmware etc. Time will tell, but from what I read here and elsewhere, Cyc seem to very good and responsive at sorting out any warranty claims. I have heard of no cases where they have not offered to repair/replace the unit according to their warranty terms and conditions. In the meantime I will continue to read this thread (and others). Keep us informed (oh I know you will, lol) on how you progress with your display problem. Personally, if it is going to mean waiting for a new display from Cyc anyway, then I would just send it all back under warranty from where you purchased it from and have it sorted out properly. Or is there a reason you cannot do that?