Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

[pendragon8000]

Hey y'all...
Just wanted to drop my experience of swapping controllers to sensorles mode ebikes.ca 40amp controller.
I tuned in the throttle max and min, shunt R and corrected my watt/amp/ramp values and its very smooth with quite good power modulation/restriction.
Although when its low power the increments are fairly noticeable but not too bad considering the difference is about 100watt jumps around 500-700watts. I did a conservative on the throttle in 1.2kw limit ride today using 500wh.tuned it in more and more throughout the ride.

IMO
sensorless with the cav3 is great if you CBF fixing halls/hall wires or don't know how.
Only issue is I need to connect a speed wire.

 

[teklektik]

Just wanted to drop my experience of swapping controllers to sensorles mode ebikes.ca 40amp controller.
... when its low power the increments are fairly noticeable but not too bad considering the difference is about 100watt jumps around 500-700watts.

Very interesting report!

BTW - What throttle mode are you using? Do the 100W jumps seem to be a result of the CA or the controller (w/ and w/o CA tests)?

Also - since you mention the speed wire, is this an older sensorless controller that didn't come with a CA-DP connector and you added one or are you using an external shunt?

(Just curious since I'm finally getting around to updating the Guide and I'm just in the 'controller mods' part now...)

 

[Merlin]

Odd - this should be working in p6.
This should show:

• in Auto PAS or Throt PAS modes, pedal RPM (0-120rpm)
• in Torq PAS mode, the number of Human Watts produced by pedaling (0-400W)

But - it won't show anything if:

• in AutoPAS or ThrotPAS modes but Trq->SensrType is not set to Disabled

Please refresh my memory:

• Do you have a PAS wheel or a Thun BB?
• What is PAS-PASMode?
• What is Trq->SensrType?

as ever...you were right....
it was the Trq Mode that was NOT disabled. ( i have a PAS with 12 Magnets)

thx.

with prelim6 i would give the German Law restriction (25kph) another try (Preset 1)

read in your manual site 46 (Appendix C)
playes with the ints, ds gain settings, also tried throttle with current,power and speed.

i cant eliminate the overshoot

Speedlimit is 25. It overshoots to 28-30, falls down to 23/24, goes to 25 and here pumps the throttle a bit.

any idea?

 

[teklektik]

with prelim6 i would give the German Law restriction (25kph) another try (Preset 1)

read in your manual site 46 (Appendix C)
playes with the ints, ds gain settings, also tried throttle with current,power and speed.

i cant eliminate the overshoot
Speedlimit is 25. It overshoots to 28-30, falls down to 23/24, goes to 25 and here pumps the throttle a bit.

First - very glad you got your display issue resolved!

As for the overshoot: as I recollect, here you are pedalling to enable assist and are running on PAS motor power; you are looking for limiting to 25kph. It's frankly kind of cold outside and my only flat test bike path is deep in snow, so I can't try this, but here's some thoughts:

• Since you are not using the throttle, the type of throttle mode doesn't really matter - I would set it to Current or Power myself.
• PAS modes 'borrow' the Power PID controller so if you look at the Limit Flags you will se that the "W" flag is in play. This cannot be changed. This means that the primary gain setting that is controlling bike operation is PLim->WGain. This is really an integral error term similar to SLim->IntSGain - there are no other power gain terms. So - the bike is being controlled by WGain (Power) and DSGain (speed) until it exceeds SLim->MaxSpeed at which point IntSGain will come into play to limit the speed.
• Based on these controlling parameters, I would try these steps:
  
  • Set PSGain = 0, IntSGain = 1, DSGain = 0, WGain = 25
  • Reduce WGain to minimize the initial overshoot when starting and accelerating towards 25kph,
  • Increase IntSGain until oscillations die out with no more than 1 or 2 additional upswings after the initial overshoot.
  • Increase DSGain until settled operation is just jittery (power feels rough or ratty), then reduce 30%.
• If WGain is set kind of low after this setup, then you may not like throttle operation on Power Throttle, so switching to Current Throttle instead will allow you to adjust throttle response independently using PLim->AGain instead of PLim->WGain.

I think this will get you what you need - but I haven't really tried it....

 

[Merlin]

Thx for your time... I will try it...
I remember last time it tried speedlimit
The settings to make the preset1 usable
It has killed my preset2/3 Setting
(which i liked....)

Will write all down and try it. Step by step

 

[teklektik]

Hey Merlin!
I was thinking about your issue and the tuning procedure I laid out above will not converge on the proper settings. I can tell you what the gain parameters are doing in general, but the trick is figuring out a a specific procedure to get them to close in on a workable setting. Let me think about this a bit.

Meanwhile, can you tell us roughly what is the max power of your bike and the combined rider+vehicle weight? Is is DD or gear/mid-drive? I'm asking because heavy bikes are slower to respond to power changes and tend to overshoot, while powerful bikes or gear motor bikes accelerate more quickly and tend to need more damping...

Apologies for the bum start - it'll happen though....

 

[Merlin]

Hey tek,

so my Signature is up2date

Weight: ~36kg / 80lbs ...Total Weight ~130Kg / 285lbs
Motor: HS4080 DD
Voltage: 100
Max Power: 12KW

But this is really Max. Just to show(me) what is possible

Preset 1: Legal Mode. 25kph. 800w Limit. Throttle 6Kph only. Using PAS
Preset 2: Daily Mode. no Speedlimit. 1500w on PAS regulated by a Potentiometer. 5KW Max with Throttle.
Preset 3: "Race Mode". No Limits at all. Except 125A

 

[teklektik]

Whoa! Cool bike!
Needless to say - restoring the SLim xxxGain settings is probably a good plan to get presets 2 & 3 restored.

• Were presets 2&3 working the way you wanted prior to the unfortunate preset 1 tuning episode?
• What were your AGain/WGain settings and what throttle modes are you using in presets 2&3?

Kind of a busy couple of days here, but I will post back.

 

[teklektik]

Preset 1: Legal Mode. 25kph. 800w Limit. Throttle 6Kph only. Using PAS
Preset 2: Daily Mode. no Speedlimit. 1500w on PAS regulated by a Potentiometer. 5KW Max with Throttle.
Preset 3: "Race Mode". No Limits at all. Except 125A

Hey Merlin!
Okay - I think I've gotten my head back into the speed adjustment stuff - it's been a while...

As you noticed, you have sort of a bad combination of bike characteristics and desired features: a powerful bike and a desire to use PAS. You also present a twist that I don't think we have seen before - the desire for BOTH a legal PAS mode and a more powerful 'WooHoo!' PAS mode using a simple PAS wheel. This is interesting because it brings into focus some global vs preset-specific parameter issues that we have before been able to work around - but no so much in your case (this is a nice way of saying you are a PITA! ). An interesting post...

So - here's a review of the global vs preset-specific parameter situation in p6 with the 'interesting' parameters highlighted:


A problem develops between Preset (1) and Preset (2) because of the different max PAS assist levels - which is unfortunately a global parameter and must be constant across presets. There are ways to work around this - you need to choose a general strategy so the proper config procedure can be determined.

The choices:

1. Preset 1 uses the same 'max watts' value for both throttle and PAS Assist. This sort of makes sense since you can only use the throttle up to 6kph anyway and I think there is only a single max power level for PAS and/or throttle specified in the EU spec.
2. Use an AutoTrqPAS setup for Preset (2) and a simple AutoPAS setup for Preset (1). This will allow different power levels for throttle and PAS Assist in both presets. Preset (2) will be RPM-scaled so you get more assist the faster you pedal. This seems to make sense in that Preset (1) is unlikely to actually be used - it's a 'legal compliance' setting for the police that it not really desirable so the simple (no rpm-scaling) PAS assist is okay there...
3. Some other combination not presented here (???)...

So - which of these is the way you wish to go? I can post up setup steps once you clarify the desired approach....

And, of course, it does point out the desirability some preset-specific vs global parameter enhancements to the firmware - but that's a 'futures' question for Justin...

 

[bspalteh]

Does anyone know if an auto tune feature for the speed controller PID would be a future possibility or if it has been considered? It seems like technically it should be possible?

 

[Merlin]

The choices:

1. Preset 1 uses the same 'max watts' value for both throttle and PAS Assist. This sort of makes sense since you can only use the throttle up to 6kph anyway and I think there is only a single max power level for PAS and/or throttle specified in the EU spec.
2. Use an AutoTrqPAS setup for Preset (2) and a simple AutoPAS setup for Preset (1). This will allow different power levels for throttle and PAS Assist in both presets. Preset (2) will be RPM-scaled so you get more assist the faster you pedal. This seems to make sense in that Preset (1) is unlikely to actually be used - it's a 'legal compliance' setting for the police that it not really desirable so the simple (no rpm-scaling) PAS assist is okay there...
3. Some other combination not presented here (???)...

So - which of these is the way you wish to go? I can post up setup steps once you clarify the desired approach....

And, of course, it does point out the desirability some preset-specific vs global parameter enhancements to the firmware - but that's a 'futures' question for Justin...

I think Option 2 is the right one. As i remember i tried the AutoTrqPAS function. But the Motor dont start on Pedaling.
How can i test it that my settings are right?

 

[pendragon8000]

Just wanted to drop my experience of swapping controllers to sensorles mode ebikes.ca 40amp controller.
... when its low power the increments are fairly noticeable but not too bad considering the difference is about 100watt jumps around 500-700watts.

Very interesting report!

BTW - What throttle mode are you using? Do the 100W jumps seem to be a result of the CA or the controller (w/ and w/o CA tests)?

Also - since you mention the speed wire, is this an older sensorless controller that didn't come with a CA-DP connector and you added one or are you using an external shunt?

(Just curious since I'm finally getting around to updating the Guide and I'm just in the 'controller mods' part now...)

sorry for the delay getting back here...
so the controller is DP. definately the new one from ebikes.ca. i havent got the halls pluged in at all under Justins advice he said go with one mode, not sensored with a dicky wire hoping it will jump to sensorless when the hall wire looses conectivity (that was my issue)

throttle mode is "power" ... throttle pluged into CA and controlling watts.
the 100watt jumps seem to be a result of the controller. like a very incremental throttle input scale on the controller.
i tried to tune it in min=1.5v max = 3.8v its ok but yeah a it glitchy with low power compared to sensored. ill do a quick ride now to confirm and edit. maby a YT vid if i can.

EDIT:
so it's definately mainly glitching at the low power range/limit of 250watts the higher the power and speed the smoother it is.
videa uploading (its a bit sketchy with one hand riding on the grass)
you can here the motor powering hard and soft alternating in the first low power mode, sorry the video doesnt show allot.
[youtube]q9KeIbPcNmk[/youtube]

 

[icecube57]

Im in a bit of a pickle. Im using the TDCM Bottom Bracket. Love the way it feels but Im missing a feature that i was used to which was when you reach your set global max speedspeed the current taper/decay s to nothing and essentially its your own leg power and the motor assist fades away until your speed drops below the threshold. Im finding it hard to mimic this with BB sensor. Any suggestions. It also seems to be flaky at latching the speed. Its erratic in its limiting. I could be pushing the bike well past the set point of 25 and do 28-29 and sometimes the CA Checks me and pulls me back and sometimes it doesnt.

 

[icecube57]

Lets say I used the CA cruise to gain this current decay at settop speed back. Does the PAS superceed the Cruise or if Cruise is latched.. does it ignore the PAS.

 

[teklektik]

Lets say I used the CA cruise to gain this current decay at settop speed back. Does the PAS superceed the Cruise or if Cruise is latched.. does it ignore the PAS.

Auto-cruise with PAS is a sort of weird animal - and it behaves a little differently in different PAS modes.

• AutoPAS
  • With or without auto-cruise enabled, applying the throttle disables PAS.
  • Continuing to hold the throttle to engage auto-cruise will lock and hold the present throttle speed (the throttle can then be ZEROed) - but you must keep pedaling or power goes to zero.
  • However, if you begin pedaling again, auto-cruise re-engages at the previous set point.
  • Applying ebrakes disengages auto-cruise so pedaling w/o throttle will once again apply PAS assist power levels (instead of auto-cruise levels).
• ThrotPAS
  • With or without auto-cruise enabled, you must pedal to engage the throttle - there is no separate PAS assist power level.
  • Continuing to hold the throttle to engage auto-cruise will lock and hold the present throttle speed (the throttle can then be ZEROed) - but you must keep pedaling or power goes to zero.
  • However, if you begin pedaling again, auto-cruise re-engages at the previous set point.
  • Applying ebrakes disengages auto-cruise so both pedaling and throttle are required to apply power.
• TorqPAS
  • With or without auto-cruise enabled, applying the throttle disables PAS.
  • Continuing to hold the throttle to engage auto-cruise will lock and hold the present throttle speed (the throttle can then be ZEROed) - but you need not keep pedaling for auto-cruise power to continue to be applied.
  • Applying ebrakes disengages auto-cruise so pedaling w/o throttle will once again apply PAS assist power levels (instead of auto-cruise levels).

The Guide describes in Section 7.8 a using the auto-cruise/AutoPAS behavior above as a sleazy means to set the PAS assist level if you don't have an external switch or pot, but TorqPAS has a different behavior that doesn't appear to be useful to resolve your PAS issue.

 

[teklektik]

Im in a bit of a pickle. Im using the TDCM Bottom Bracket. Love the way it feels but Im missing a feature that i was used to which was when you reach your set global max speedspeed the current taper/decay s to nothing and essentially its your own leg power and the motor assist fades away until your speed drops below the threshold. Im finding it hard to mimic this with BB sensor. Any suggestions. It also seems to be flaky at latching the speed. Its erratic in its limiting. I could be pushing the bike well past the set point of 25 and do 28-29 and sometimes the CA Checks me and pulls me back and sometimes it doesnt.

Hmmm - I think you are having a problem similar to Merlin above. If I understand the issue, the MaxSpeed limiting is not working well with PAS and is allowing overshoot to higher speeds, correct?

 

[icecube57]

Correct

 

[Gab]

Is their in the pipe works a V4 version that is maybe a bit smaller and lighter ?

 

[CEGB]

The V3 isn't exactly big. Any smaller and you wouldn't be able to read it. As for weight, it's not exactly heavy either. It's probably the lightest part of my build!

 

[izeman]

does anyone know if it's planned to add an RPM read out as well?
i'd like to see speed, cell voltage (as an assumption pack divided by cell count), current and RPM on one page of the display.
why? because i want to use the CA with a middrive and keeping the motor in the ideal rpm range is key to great range and high efficiency.
i know i could use the speed signal and set pole count and wheel circumfence to show that as well, but then i loose range and speed info

 

[rscamp]

does anyone know if it's planned to add an RPM read out as well?
i'd like to see speed, cell voltage (as an assumption pack divided by cell count), current and RPM on one page of the display.
why? because i want to use the CA with a middrive and keeping the motor in the ideal rpm range is key to great range and high efficiency.
i know i could use the speed signal and set pole count and wheel circumfence to show that as well, but then i loose range and speed info

This is true for a given throttle setting and of course will vary with that setting. Current or power can also be used to determine where you are operating on the efficiency curve for a given throttle setting.

 

[izeman]

does anyone know if it's planned to add an RPM read out as well?
i'd like to see speed, cell voltage (as an assumption pack divided by cell count), current and RPM on one page of the display.
why? because i want to use the CA with a middrive and keeping the motor in the ideal rpm range is key to great range and high efficiency.
i know i could use the speed signal and set pole count and wheel circumfence to show that as well, but then i loose range and speed info

This is true for a given throttle setting and of course will vary with that setting. Current or power can also be used to determine where you are operating on the efficiency curve for a given throttle setting.

surely right, but i'd like to see something like a rev counter - so geekish *ggg* and i guess it would be easy to implement, as long as there is enough memory to program it into.

 

[mrbill]

I just upgraded my batteries to those using the recent Samsung INR-18650-29E cells. Which battery profile is the most appropriate? LiPo, LiMn, or RCLiPo? I selected LiMn since this seemed to fit best according to this page:

http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/cycle-analyst-3.html

But, I thought I'd check to see how others have set this up.

Also, any news on when we might see a firmware release that has the Peak Stats Reset aligned with the peak stats screens?

Thanks.

 

[teklektik]

The particular State of Charge (SOC) curve (based on chemistry) is used to operate the Gas Gauge widget when the controller is drawing essentially no current (open cicuit voltage). I have not been able to obtain a very low rate discharge curve for INR 18650-29E cells but at 2A the curve is linear from 4.0v to 3.2v with a rapid fall-off to 3.0v. We might reasonably expect to see the same general shape but with a bit higher knee voltage for lower (e.g. 0.2A) discharge rates.

• LiMn: Lithium Manganese, most common 18650 style cell rechargeable lithium chemistry,
  somewhat steady drop from 4.2V down to 3.6V, and then a more rapid fall off to 3.0V
• LiPo: Lithium Polymer, standard ebike grade used in many lightweight lower-end lithium ebike battery packs.
  This has an almost linear voltage drop from 4.2V to 3.0 V / cell.

V3 SOC curves are shown here. It seems the 29E cells fall between the LiMn (higher voltage) and Ebike LiPo (lower voltage) curves. This suggests that the LiMn curve will give a more pessimistic SOC result as the 29E cells fall off faster initially and reach the 80% level (~ 3.36v) which is essentially 100% discharged for LiMn. On the other hand, the 29E 80% and 100% levels appear as about 83% and 96% respectively for Ebike LiPo. Given the 'pixel resolution' of only 16 'gas gauge pixels' (each pixel is worth 6.25%) this seems an acceptable ~1 pixel error near the fully discharged end.

Based on this I would try the LiPo setting.

Again - no real world experience here, but that's my guess...

 

[ferret]

A little help needed.
Setting up the CA by following the UUG, I got to the stage of setting Throttle Input/Output Voltages.
Followed instructions up to this stage:

2. Use the Diagnostic Screen (left button once from Main
Display) that shows Throttle OUT. While increasing the
throttle, note the OUTvoltages at which the wheel
begins to turn (min) and stops turning faster (max).

Problems is, that no matter what I do with the throttle, the OUT voltage is 0.00v.
The IN voltage changes according to the throttle position as expected.

Any ideas what might be the reason?

Thanks,
Avner.