Direct Drive Genesis

[skeetab5780]

I FINALLY PULLED THE TRIGGER ON 3X 6S 12000MAH MULTI STAR!

I've been stalking them lately and just a week or so ago they were $76 each now today they were only $59.99 for some reason. I checked out with Paypal and feel pretty good about it.

Now I will have a battery worthy of testing my new toys!

 

[DanGT86]

Nice job on the multistars. I still haven't figured out HK's pricing structure. Last week the multistar 4s 10ah packs were $37. I almost loaded up on them myself. I really want to get away from Lipo for safety reasons but they make it hard to do with prices like that. I think they must have limited shelf space and just dump the overstock when they get a shipment of new packs.

I was really looking forward to having my mid-drive genesis up and running 2 months ago with my transmagnetics motor mounted just like yours. I had everything mounted and ready to go and destroyed the magnets taking the motor apart to install a temp sensor. I would have been riding that day had that not happened. So now I'm deep in the design and machining phase of an 80100 RC motor reduction that I am mounting on the swingarm in front of the wheel. Its nice to hear your positive feedback regarding your setup considering you have the awesome Beta build you could be riding instead. Makes me think the Genesis is still worth messing with.

Just out of curiosity, what is your impression of the throttle ramp on the kelly controller? I had always heard people complaining that the Kelly had a slow ramp rate that didn't give full power at low speed. Other than that the spec sheets on them make them look like an obvious choice for any build.

Last year I participated in an e-bike race on an oval track and I was the only guy not running a QS 205 hub motor and Kelly controller. My 18Fet Lyen and Muxus 3k V1 put my solidly in last place running about 5kw. After the race I rode a lap on a 12kw setup with a kelly. The throttle ramp was more than violent enough to wheelie out from under me at a decent rolling speed so I wondered if the complaints about the slow throttle ramp of the Kelly were from people running underpowered setups.

Anyway, its nice to see your build up and running.

 

[skeetab5780]

Thanks Dan! Other than the dead spot in the front it seems pretty good, I have yet to program it the way BZ said works well so it seems like it has a slight sling shot affect to it. I will be able to get a better feel for it when my multistars come in. My pack now would barely get 5 miles with this controller. I may give it a try today if I have time tho

Also threw a nice new set of 28" wide aluminum downhill bars on the bike so I can throw it around better, excited to see how I like them. Ive never had bars this wide before.

 

[skeetab5780]

Got a chance to get a short test ride in today, short not my choice but because my batteries were crying in a matter of minutes. Lots of fun, but it also made me realize i need to do alot more to make this thing reliable enough to beat on.
[youtube]t6moSTBFLt8[/youtube]

 

[madin88]

looks like it has great performance from the vid and with that small battery it's not that "suspicious"
what are your plans for the battery?

Last year I participated in an e-bike race on an oval track and I was the only guy not running a QS 205 hub motor and Kelly controller. My 18Fet Lyen and Muxus 3k V1 put my solidly in last place running about 5kw. After the race I rode a lap on a 12kw setup with a kelly. The throttle ramp was more than violent enough to wheelie out from under me at a decent rolling speed so I wondered if the complaints about the slow throttle ramp of the Kelly were from people running underpowered setups.

the problem with kelly is (or was?) the weak torque at take off - especially noticeable when using a direct drive hub. once above about 5-10kmh, the performance was on TOP.
i was able to stall a 205/28mm DD motor very easy when using a KBSX at maximum of 130A phase amps
(that controller: http://kellycontroller.com/kbs48121...-p-528.html?osCsid=etsua7k5lv513klp65n2sojmd2)

It seems like kelly puts out very limited power at 0 to a few rpm compared to other controllers set to same amps.
When i was using the same controller on a geared 8T MAC, the lack of torque on take off wasn't noticeable anymore (-> motor is spinning 5 times as fast compared to the DD).

At least thats how it was with that KBS-X contoller, and it may be differnt when using a BIG 10kw version together with 100V battery

 

[skeetab5780]

Its crazy that it kept sagging down to my LVC off but I went to charge the battery today and they were over 4 volts per cell. They bounced back up apparently. Not sure these cells like me very much after what im putting them thru now hah!

 

[madin88]

Its crazy that it kept sagging down to my LVC off but I went to charge the battery today and they were over 4 volts per cell. They bounced back up apparently. Not sure these cells like me very much after what im putting them thru now hah!

sounds like the cells cannot handle the current you are taking.

 

[skeetab5780]

Its crazy that it kept sagging down to my LVC off but I went to charge the battery today and they were over 4 volts per cell. They bounced back up apparently. Not sure these cells like me very much after what im putting them thru now hah!

sounds like the cells cannot handle the current you are taking.

LOL obviously

 

[skeetab5780]

I just love this bike! Ripping power wheelies all lunch time! I loosened up the chain a tiny bit since it seemed to tighten itself a tad bit on the first test ride. Im still using my 18650 pack until my HK order arrives and it is still a blast. still need to work on back brakes and improving the front end, I noticed my sr suntour front susp shock compresses almost fully all the time with this bikes weight and myself ofcourse.

The extra wide 28" bars im slowly falling in love with

 

[spinningmagnets]

As much as these frames are known to be from the "affordable" line of big box store bicycles...I have heard that upgrading the shock absorber can dramatically improve the quality of the ride.

 

[skeetab5780]

Both shocks are already better/not stock. But i will have to get a stronger front fork, i want a thru axle anyways.

 

[skeetab5780]

So I want a few opinions if you all could help me out...

I want to buy a new fork, but I am trying to watch the weight of this build so the performance is excellent.

Should I get a triple crown DH fork? like the USD-8 at 7.2 pounds?

Or Should I get a regular MTB 140mm travel jumper fork at 4 pounds?

1. The first thing I think of is losing turn radius with the huge triple crowns which always bugs me even when you know you don't really need it?
2. Second I think this thing weighs a little too much already so maybe the regular dirt jumper fork will have too much flex?
3. Third I think this thing is pretty powerful maybe I should have a beefy front end (only my life depends on it)?
4. I already have a brand new 15mm front wheel and its very hard to find a 15mm fork with 1-1/8" straight steer tube?

What should I do/get?

 

[spinningmagnets]

If you will be spending most of your riding time at 30-MPH on good (smooth, no potholes) streets, the lighter fork might be adequate. If you know you will not be able to resist doing 40-MPH, and there is the possibility of hitting an unexpected pothole? get the dual-crown fork...heavier, but worth it.

If the frame ever cracks after a hit because it is not as strong as the fork, you can swap the fork to a better frame. A better fork can even reduce the possibility of a frame crack developing...

I'm just regurgitating what I have read, take anything I say with a grain of salt, and only use it as a basis for starting your own research...

 

[madin88]

1) with the battery installed like now it would block a dual crown fork. otherwise the steering angle would be not an issue on that frame.
2) no big weight differnce
3) for hard offroad riding i would use minimum a good tapered fork.
4) thats the problem: dual crowns with 15mm axle are not available (or at least very rare)

following things you can do:

buying a 1-1/8 straight single crown fork with 15mm axle (i have seen the DNM USD-6 on some builds here, but generally not much choice).
measuring the headset and check if you could install a different lower set for tapered forks. buy a tapered fork with 15mm axle (you will have plenty of choice!)
buying a dual crown fork and lacing the wheel into a 20mm hub (probably the most expensive and time consuming option)

 

[skeetab5780]

this is the fork in question, if I buy a triple crown or a single crown it will be about $400 either way. But is it worth saving 3 pounds to buy the smaller one? and then I save money on the wheel I already have at 15mm

OH AND THE BATTERY IS NOT STAYING WHERE IT IS

•Intended use: XC/Trail/AM
•Air sprung
•140mm travel
•32mm stanchions
•Remote lock out capability
•RL2 high performance aluminum cartridge, mid-valve damper with rebound adjustment and Lock Out



Item Specifications

Color Black
Weight 1814
Offset 41
Axle to Crown Length 479
Crown Race 30
Steerer Tube Length 260
Brake Type Post Mount 160
Wheel Size 26
Wheel Size 27.5
Travel 140
Front Hub Spacing 100
Front Axle Type 15mm Thru
Defined Color Black
Steerer Type Straight
S.H.I.S. Stem Clamp Diameter 28.6
External Adjustments Rebound Damping
Positive Spring Air
Negative Spring Coil
Stanchion Diameter 32
Lockout Switch Crown

 

[skeetab5780]

Now that I got my multistars I want to cut my genesis frame to weld them into the inside triangle, they are only off about 1.5" so a little surgery is needed!!

Im talking to my welder brother to see if he is capable of blasting this frame up! If so I may start cutting it up! If I screw up it only cost $150 for another cheapest part of the bike LOL

Seems like he is up for the task I don't think it will be too structurally detrimental to the frame if I notch the top and bottom tubes to fit the battery in and then have him tig it with 1/8" aluminum stock closed.

Its only about an inch on each side that needs to get taken out, any thoughts?

My question for today.

Is it worth it to modify the frame?
Or possibly just make an entire new one?

 

[skeetab5780]

Multistar assembly on the quick! Aint nobody got time fo' that!
charge state from HK

Charging for the first time

About to build one pack out of them all

Tools needed

ground crimp sleeves are cheap and easy way to series the packs

Throw a lick of tempflex 3m tape over them before heat shrink

last one

Threw some domino connectors on the output leads for now so nothing shorts out!

Heat shrink saves lives

Little gorilla tape (love this stuff)

 

[skeetab5780]

The multistars are pretty heavy to be in the backpack and its only 12ah. I just tried them out for a bit, very nice power delivery compared to the 18650's sagging. You can feel a bit more power and this is only 18s, two cells less...but with much less volt sag!

I don't think im going to like riding a bike this powerful with a battery on my back, its flips back too easy and unless your standing and leaning forward the entire time you will have issues.

I made a 12awg 5' Teflon turnigy wire jumper to test the pack with xt60 connectors soldered onto it, I accidentally put the connectors backwards so the male end is on the battery! With these connectors it doesn't really matter unless you drop a piece of metal inside it and short it out, but that was my Oops of the day...

 

[skeetab5780]

Getting prepared to change out the front end to a 15mm thru axle fork and wheel setup with better components. Mounting my 26x2.4 Holy Roller tire and downhill tube onto wheel today.

 

[drew12345]

Nice job documenting your build!

 

[nutnspecial]

Re: batteries in the frame- if you have to have them easily removable in one bundle like that I'd get another frame for triangle bag long before cutting up a light AL frame. Otherwise separate and integrate into the bike, having a more dedicated pack for it- the three look like they'd fit in the triangle with some rearrangement. Chopped/modified/customized hard plastic boxes/organizers can help protect and fasten them whether grouped or singles.

It's very nice so far, hub motors and serial middrives just aren't quite the same eh? Obstacles become more fun imo.

 

[litespeed]

I would not skimp out on the fork. I personally think the dual crown is the only way to go. Of all the single crown forks I've tried with the most expensive being in the mid 400 range have been very soft feeling comparatively speaking. I would get chatter when braking down loose gravel hills (which I generally ride a lot.) and lots of flex braking hard to ride fast. Dual crown is a night and day difference. I'm sure there are 800 dollar and up single crowns that are good but most will not compare to a good dual crown. Shaky or soft front end on a heavy fast bike gives a very uncomfortable feeling. Weight is normally not an issue on a powered bike.....if it feels heavy then turn up the power/wattage!

Try pinkbike.com for sale section for some great deals on used forks and everything else. Lots of high dollar parts get pulled off of brand new bikes and sold for pennies on the dollar. I've found and bought some great parts at stupid cheap prices but you have to wait sometimes to find just what you need at the right price.

Be careful cutting up your frame, it's keeping you from harm and needs to continue. Also solder your crimp joints. Those are common for high resistance and can get hot sucking power/effecincy from your system. Solder is always better than mechanical connections, always!

Looks like a great project.

Tom

 

[spinningmagnets]

I don't know the weight difference in a quality $400 single-crown fork and dual-crown fork. However, if you are only saving a pound of weight, I'd go for the heavier fork, especially since you are putting that weight where it is needed, on the front of a wheelie machine.

Single-crown is made to save weight, but it doesn't save much, and dual crown id definitely a lot stronger.

 

[Voltron]

Slightly off topic... But solder is not always better for connections. Often solder wicking up the strands of the wire makes a hard spot where repeated flexing makes the strands break. A properly done crimp with the right tool, esp when covered by adhesive lined heat shrink to prevent moisture intrusion is hard to beat. If there is mechanical strain on the wire, heat softened solder can let wires slip apart unless held a good crimp. The key is using the right crimping tool for the connector, and not just mashing it with some vice grips.
When you're a boat electrician, your drawer full of special crimping tools is your best friend, not your soldering iron... Lol

 

[skeetab5780]

Im having a ton of issues with Google photos lately, they are nothing but problems. They changed the format of their system and its awful. They show up for a minute and then disappear...

Not sure what is happening but it is slowing me down