Dutch police found a way to test e-bike power on the side of the road

PaPaSteve

PaPaSteve

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I'm in favour of stopping speeding ebikes but if only they had some sort of magical device they could point at someone and it would tell them how fast the person was going. That way they could pull over the people who are speeding instead of the people who are capable of speeding.

Of course then you'll get the "but I was just coasting down the hill" defense. Which I don't think should be a defense, put a speed limit on the bike path and enforce it globally. Of course then all the acoustic bikes will argue "but I don't have a speedometer" to which I say ignorance is not a defense either.

But then the other part of me worries that things will just go the way of cars with liability insurance and vehicle inspections and where do we draw the line so that bikes remain accessible?

Can't we just be respectful without it being legislated? 😭
 
"Yes officer of course you can test my bike *flips legal mode switch*, no officer I don't know why the motor is the size of a watermelon, the fuse says 400A, the controller is the size of a brick and the wires are 6ga. It just came that way."

I bet you'll also get somebody that looks at the price of the fine and says that's a good deal for a dyno test.
 
The site is so bloated my web browser crashes when trying to view it.
I'm pretty sure we were joking about this possibility a decade ago, no surprise that region of Europe is the first to spoil the fun :/
 
Is it actually a dyno for measuring power? I thought it was just measuring speed so they could get around spoofed speedometers. If so are they going to impound all the Bosch and Shimano motors that routinely go over 250w? If so Imma get some popcorn this s***'s going to be hilarious.🍿(or maybe Bosch will be big enough to get the laws changed?)
 
Epithemeus said:
so that bikes remain accessible?
Click to expand...

bikes or ebikes? A quick and dirty fallacy is to equate them. They are quite different, and the innocent connotations of bikes don't match ebikes or the sort of behaviour with ebikes that is being considered here.

Accessible to who?

IMO children should exercise their bodies and sleep at night. 'Adult' means "a person who is fully grown or developed" and the opposite includes someone that isn't fully developed in their mind, and their awareness of others and their society.

A healthy child spends their time growing their body, and a healthy society puts effort into preparing those children for success in life - which includes making it clear that their success depends on the society they benefit from.

Apart from actual disability assistance, I don't think we should permit non-adults to use electric vehicles of any sort - there isn't any good reason. Teaching fulfillment of desire is a mistake - the person who can't say 'no' to themself is a serious problem for the rest of us.

A person that can't say 'no' to themselves belongs in managed care for their and our safety. A person who can but won't say 'no' to themself should be removed from society - there is no reason the rest of us should pay for their selfishness.

Apart from disability assistance, I don't see any sensible reason to allow someone without a driver's license to use a powered vehicle. If you can't manage that minimum, use a pedal-powered machine or public transport which has someone responsible to handle it for you.

Jerks are jerks.
Incompetent people are incompetent.
There is no reason for the rest of us to pretend about that. You DO owe us for maintaining a society that benefits you, and there is no reason we should excuse you.

Buy your own property, fence it to keep children out, and ride as you want there. On OUR property, ride as we say.

And, work with your neighbors, make a case for different road use, and pass new laws.
 
Epithemeus said:
Is it actually a dyno for measuring power? I thought it was just measuring speed so they could get around spoofed speedometers. If so are they going to impound all the Bosch and Shimano motors that routinely go over 250w? If so Imma get some popcorn this s***'s going to be hilarious.🍿(or maybe Bosch will be big enough to get the laws changed?)
Click to expand...
I had this exact thought, EU allows peaks higher than 250w it's just the motors cont wattage rating has to be under 250w. I honestly don't think a single ebike on the road right now doesn't peak above 250w. And it doesn't seem they have a limit on peak power so why test it. A 250w rated motor can take 4-5x that in very short brief peaks assuming other factors are favorable
 
Bengy22 said:
A 250w rated motor can take 4-5x that in very short brief peaks
Click to expand...
This seems to be why Grin's site (probably Justin himself) doesn't like the ratings, and gives a range for motors.

I haven't seen the standard test set up to specify a power rating. I vaguely think it has to do with sustained power (not overheating).
 
And it doesn't (shouldn't) matter what the *motor* can do--what matters is what the controller is designed to do and limited to.

Using a motor designed for much higher power with a lower power controller means the system is still that lower power, and it is able to handle it "forever" under "any" conditions**** without the motor failing from overheating.

****like say, having to use the motor to help you ride slowly up a steep hill at max power, where much of that power is just making waste heat inside the motor--a motor designed just for that power level may fail soon doing that, but one designed for much higher power may last easily long enough to do this job, over and over again.
 
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RunForTheHills said:
Did anyone else catch the this in the linked article: Get ready - California's electric bicycle driver's license bill is here
California to require an ebike license? Really?
Click to expand...
There's was a scandal a while back about some kids running full speed downhill on a Rad, failed to stop, and one died, I think. So the law is targeted at that situation. Below 12 years old can't ride, above 12 need license if no driver's license.

Sounds like a good thing for everyone except drunk drivers who lost their license. Kids generally don't behave well on ebikes and their bad behavior has been bringing restrictions down on the rest of us.
 
lnanek said:
There's was a scandal a while back about some kids running full speed downhill on a Rad, failed to stop, and one died, I think. So the law is targeted at that situation. Below 12 years old can't ride, above 12 need license if no driver's license.
Click to expand...
Interesting, that also implies that it may be more common to punish someone with a drivers license for breaking some law on an ebike. Right, if they are sorta rolling ebikes into the existing vehicle legal system by requiring a drivers license then soon issuing tickets the same way as for cars or motorcycles will be more common. Certainly some pros and cons there let alone the enforcement issues.
 
People in general demonstrate that it doesn't matter if (whatever) is legislated or not, they still can't just be respectful. :(


Phoenix used to have (actually still does) laws requiring plain bicycle registration and licensing, but the department to do it doesn't exist, so there is no way to comply with the law.
 
amberwolf said:
People in general demonstrate that it doesn't matter if (whatever) is legislated or not, they still can't just be respectful. :(
Click to expand...
Well, cyclists and peds seem to behave about the same whether they're frequently being harassed by the cops or not. But I've observed that post-George Floyd, cops here stopped enforcing traffic laws at all except to do racial profiling, and car driver behavior quickly progressed from callously indifferent to intentionally reckless. So they once again showed that they're not only most of us, but also the worst of us. It's not too surprising considering all the harms you have to willfully ignore before you even acquire a car.
 
Truth be told . . . very few average cyclists that can output 250 watts continuous at the pedals.
So adding a 250 watt motor is like bringing a fit cyclist along to help pedal.
E-bikes are sharing the cycle path with other perhaps less powerful and/or experienced riders.
Nothing wrong with exploring enforcement options to wrangle in the abusers.
Maybe the enforcement should be aimed at the manufactures instead ?
All models have to pass the dyno test before being sold to the public ?
Look at the end results of the VW dieselgate . . .
 
FWIW
This rollertest in the Netherlands does measure only max speed, no power.
Without throttle max. 25km/h, with throttle and without pedaling max. 6km/h for a pedelec.
max. 45km/h for a speedpedelec, without or with throttle and/or pedaling.

Another rollertype was already used for scooters and small motercycles resp. 25km/h and 45km/h, but did only work with throttle on the rear wheel.

In the Netherlands we have many but relative small bike lanes. In some cities the scooters and speedpedelecs may not use these lanes and also a helmet, age of 16, driverslicense and insurance is mandatory.
This is not the case for ordinairy bike and pedelecs.
Also there is no minimum age for a bike and pedelec. So a lot of kids have bought or got a relative cheap Chinese Fatbike, but not all (read most) of these ebikes have a speedlimit and can run 35- 45km/h.
On bike lanes this is a big difference with regular bikers that run about 15km/h.
There were some accidents and many complains that there is no enforcement of the police against these pedelecs.
(there are also complains about cargo ebikes, speed cyclist etc., but this aren't young kids)
That is why these rollers come in. The police will regularly check speeds near schools. If the speed is too high they have to pay about $300 the first time and the second time they can loose their ebike. Or, after investigation, the not legal parts of it.
The police does hope this is enough of a deterrent that all pedelecs does meet the legal EU requirements.
 
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Elinx said:
FWIW
This rollertest in the Netherlands does measure only max speed, no power.
Without throttle max. 25km/h, with throttle and without pedaling max. 6km/h for pedelec
max 45km/h without or with throttle and/or pedaling for a speedpedelec.

Another rollertype was already used for scooters and small motercycles resp. 25km/h and 45km/h, but did only work with throttle on the rear wheel.

In the Netherlands we have many but relative small bike lanes. In some cities the scooters and speedpedelecs may not use these lanes and also a helmet, age of 16, driverslicense and insurance is mandatory.
This is not the case for ordinairy bike and pedelecs.
Also there is no minimum age for a bike and pedelec. So a lot of kids have bought or got a relative cheap Chinese Fatbike, but not all (read most) of these ebikes have a speedlimit and can run 35- 45km/h.
On bike lanes this is a big difference with regular bikers that run about 15km/h.
There were some accidents and many complains that there is no enforcement of the police against these pedelecs.
(there are also complains about cargo ebikes, speed cyclist etc., but this aren't young kids)
That is why these rollers come in. The police will regularly check speeds near schools. If the speed is too high they have to pay about $300 the first time and the second time they can loose their ebike. Or the not legal parts of it.
The police does hope this is enough of a deterrent that all pedelecs does meet the legal EU requirements.
Click to expand...


Just to back up Elinx here, they do not measure power. They measure maximum speed with power assistance. You can have a 100kw motor if you want (they do not test for this), provided power assist ceases at 45km/h.
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no single European country that would have legal limit on motor power.
 
Grautuefel said:
...They measure maximum speed with power assistance. You can have a 100kw motor if you want (they do not test for this), provided power assist ceases at 45km/h.
Click to expand...
For an ebike, that may use the bike lanes, it is 25km/h with pedaling, 6km/h without pedaling and max. 250W continue power.
It is this categorie that young people buy. This ebike don't need to be certified and registered, which is the base for the problem.

45km/h is for a certified, registered speedpedelec that not may use the bike lanes already. Max continue power is 4kW.
Only producers of such ebikes can get a (expensive) registration, so 100kW you never will see on these speedpedelecs.

100kW? In theory, yes. but practical no, because we all know that the size and weight will differ with such a high powerrated motor.
The police doesn't test power in the first place on site, but if they expect something illegal, like the size of the motor or total weight of the pedelec, they can bring it in for further investigation on the police station.
The police(wo)men that work with these rollertest do see many ebikes and they will recognize strange dimensions and maybe even the secret "legal mode" switch. ;)
But imho 1kW instead of 250W will be no problem, if the power isn't engraved in the motorcase as with Bafang BBSxx series.
 
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Az. said:
... there is no single European country that would have legal limit on motor power.
Click to expand...
Formally, in Europe, the EN 15194:2017 applies, which states that the continuous power may be of an ebike (0.25kW) and a speed pedelec (4kW). This is the power where the temperature is constant for a long time.
Nothing is mentioned about the maximum achievable power and max. temperature and the dimensions of the motor.
Which means that for example 1 kW can be needed on an ebike (0,25kW) for a short period of time and a temperature rise, as long as the speed limit is not exceeded.
 
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Elinx said:
Formally, in Europe, the EN 15194:2017 applies, which states that the continuous power may be of an ebike (0.25kW) and a speed pedelec (4kW). This is the power where the temperature is constant for a long time.
Nothing is mentioned about the maximum achievable power.
Which means that for example 1 kW can be needed on an ebike (0,25kW) for a short period of time and temperature rise, as long as the speed limit is not exceeded.
Click to expand...

As far as I know limit is on continuous rated power as specified by manufacturer.
Edit:
...which is just a number printed on motor. Real power is determined by controller and there is no legal limit on it, so why would police try to measure it? For fun? This article seems like a fake news to me.
 
Last edited:
Az. said:
As far as I know limit is on continuous rated power as specified by manufacturer.
Edit:
...which is just a number printed on motor. Real power is determined by controller and there is no legal limit on it, so why would police try to measure it? For fun? So it seems like a fake news to me.
Click to expand...
Is the dyno test for power or for speed ?

Were the Euro electric assist specs originally written so the motor activated by turning the pedals and no hand throttle
allowed ?
 
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