Ebike fires in the news!!! CBS NYC

[Jil]

Hum what ebike makes are they please? made where? What are the statistics for fires per year? like 99 ebike fires per year in the USA? woah!

160,000 car fires each year in the USA, 95% being due to gasoline cars...
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1133254_fires-are-less-frequent-in-teslas-and-other-evs-vs-gas-vehicles

 

[Comrade]

160,000 car fires each year in the USA, 95% being due to gasoline cars...
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1133254_fires-are-less-frequent-in-teslas-and-other-evs-vs-gas-vehicles

This type of comparison is a little disingenuous. Gasoline car fires are almost always due to accidents or poor maintenance. This is not what is on the mind of the typical consumer with the money for an EV. They are looking at scenarios where the vehicle is used according to the manual, yet still catch on fire. Such as while charging. Or just parked. Basically events that they can't control for and are not their fault.

How many events like that are there for EVs vs. gasoline vehicles? I don't know. Sure, there were fires in Fords as I remember, due to faulty switches, in new vehicles. As the gasoline engine vehicle moves out of its infant mortality period, and as long as it is properly maintained, it should be clear sailing after that. With EVs, the batteries degrade with age and the likelihood of fires IMHO increases.

So there are valid concerns with EV that use a very volatile battery technologies.

 

[MadRhino]

Combustion engine vehicles are the cause of 20% of all fires. That is a lot. Main causes for a car fire are:

Car Accidents. ...
Electrical System Failure. ...
Fuel System Leak. ...
Overheating Engine. ...
Overheating Catalytic Converters
Arson

EV’s have their own problems of course, but the vast majority of battery fires happen during charging cycle and it is not different for EV than phones.

 

[JackFlorey]

This type of comparison is a little disingenuous. Gasoline car fires are almost always due to accidents or poor maintenance.

Per the Chandler Law Group, a legal group that specializes in car insurance claims, the most common cause of car fires are fuel system leaks. And these can be caused by accidents of course, but "fuel leaks can also arise on their own and with very little warning" per the reference.

#2 are electrical system failures. #4 is overheating engine. Down at #6 you get batteries, including both EV and hybrid batteries. You don't even get to bad maintenance until you get to #9.

EV's, since they don't have fuel systems, avoid the #1 reason for fires entirely.

Personally I've only been peripherally involved with one car fire. My roommate was driving his convertible down the road one day, and at a light another driver said "hey, there's smoke coming out of your car." Roommate said "OK we will take a look at it." He started to make his way to the right lane. By the time he got there, you could see flames. They both got out of the car (it was sort of in the middle of nowhere) called the fire department and got a ride home. The car was burned to the ground. Best anyone could tell it was a fuel leak.

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-driving-safety/accidents-hazardous-conditions/10-causes-of-car-fires.htm

 

[99t4]

Don't forget the (often spectacular) fires at gas stations. I remember one that was caused by a woman's stilleto heel scraping on the ground causing a spark. The heel had an exposed nail head that was holding the little pad. Dry staticky day, evidently enough vapors at ground level to ignite.

 

[dogman dan]

Personally, I've had two car fires, and one EV fire.

The first car fire when I was 18, the main battery cable sagged till it touched the exhaust. Melted the wiring harness but did not burn the whole truck.

More recently, I had the rubber mounts on my differential catch fire on a subaru. I had the wrong size tire on my spare, and it overheated the differential. Thought I had the same size, but it wasn't. Only burned the rubber, and ruined the diff. That one is part of why I needed to commute by e bike for a few years. Couldn't fix it affordably.

Also set my self on fire, 7 days in hospital when I was 18.

Cleary fire likes me. No wonder my bike caught fire.

 

[ZeroEm]

Lost my Datsun 280zx in a fire broke my heart. Not sure the cause, gasoline caught fire on the exhaust, while driving.

 

[onemorejoltwarden]

Bike bats setting the garage on fire,
Set the house and yard aglow.
May incite the neighbor's civic ire
As they tell all the folks they know.

Everyone who knows a noobie who
Charges batteries and leaves
They get hot and observed they are not
As the smoke drifts out over the eves.

And then the fire trucks on its way
And they spray it with water, thinking it will pay
But it just makes it worse , and you know why
And hopefully no one you know 's gonna die.

So, I'm offering this simple poem
For for folks who know a thing or two.

It's been said , the insurance won't pay
Merde, it's a big mess, Merde, what a big mess
So true.

 

[SniperGaulois]

hAHAHAH that's genius poetry.

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I welded, weak and weary,
wrapping glinting nickel strips on to salvaged lithium sticks—
While I welded, neatly zapping, suddenly there came a flashing,
As of sparks swiftly lighting, plasma shining lithium packing
“’Tis a chicken finger,” I hooted, "quick to the duck pond..."
'Said I, running and leaping through the window sill.
Splish splash, hello ducks, in the evening chill,
I will run home again and defuse the lithium incendiary.

 

[onemorejoltwarden]

Sorry to be so slow off the mark , but good one

https://jalopnik.com/nine-e-bike-batteries-cause-huge-nyc-apartment-fire-1848241582

Just had my condo Assn put into bylaws that ALL EV's and accessories must be UL approved

I think it is a PITA but reasonable.

ABOVE ARGUMENTS:
Most fires are gasoline in ICE: yes but insured, regulated storage/handling, ?RELATIVE risk not stated
EV are rare: Progressively less so. 100 ebike fires noted by FDNY in NYC in 2021
Just in SOME: So just use UL ones or factory bats

 

[DanGT86]

hAHAHAH that's genius poetry.

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I welded, weak and weary,
wrapping glinting nickel strips on to salvaged lithium sticks—
While I welded, neatly zapping, suddenly there came a flashing,
As of sparks swiftly lighting, plasma shining lithium packing
“’Tis a chicken finger,” I hooted, "quick to the duck pond..."
'Said I, running and leaping through the window sill.
Splish splash, hello ducks, in the evening chill,
I will run home again and defuse the lithium incendiary.

Was this the work of Edgar Allen Li-Po?

 

[SafeDiscDancing]

Just had my condo Assn put into bylaws that ALL EV's and accessories must be UL approved

The funny thing is that it is often the UL approved cheap BMS that CAUSES the fire in the first place.

You cannot force wisdom into people (knowledge about battery behavior) but you can destroy prosperity with enough badly imagined laws to make commerce impossible.

We know that with Lithium chemistry the main reason fires occur is because of "Lead Battery Dogma" which informs the unwise to always maximize the charge in their battery.

Proper safety measures involve always leaving the battery in storage at some level in the middle of charge.

The UL standards do NOTHING to ensure people leave the battery at the middle.

So this is a case of completely retarded lawmakers telling the people to "Trust the UL Science" when we know objectively as wise old ebike hobbiests that the people doing this have no clue at all.

Literally the world has been inverted. Those in the most grave error now rule.

---------------------------

Offering some idea to help here...

What if the chargers had two modes?

One mode is "Storage Charge" which charges the battery to about 3.9 volts per cell for Li-ion which is the recognized optimum storage level for maximum lifespan. And this can be done in pure CC (Constant Current) mode so ideally could be rather quick. Normally it is the tapering that is slow.

The other mode is "Top Off Charge" which is to get the battery that last 10% or so before you use it. (CV Constant Voltage)

That is useful and wise... even the skilled ebike hobbiest wants this type of thing.

Essentially if you split CC and CV into two functions it would resolve this. Constant Current is always the fast charging phase and could be done quickly enough that a user can charge something up and store it away. Then when they pull the battery out for use they pop it into Constant Voltage mode for as long as they are willing to wait.

Of course idiots do what idiots do... so I can see the guy who cannot understand any of this simply use his "Top Off Charge" every time and over night like the idiot he is.

Again... you can't fix this type of idiot.

--------------------

What ends up happening is the lawmakers decide:

"We will pass laws to focus on the dumbest person in the community."

...so they declare that charging ABOVE 4.0 volts is now illegal in all cases.

All approved BMS systems must establish 4.0 volts per Li-ion cell as their maximum charge.

That makes it idiot proof and robs you of about 10% to 25% of your capacity.

Realistically that's the most practical way to go.

 

[dogman dan]

And then, one cheap ass fet blows, locking it into the on position, and the whole pack keeps charging till all cell groups are way above 4v. This is rare as hell, but it will still burn your house down. Its much rarer on the drill battery, which uses better components in the bms.

Aside from pack damage, crashes, drops, etc, the cheap components used in cheap bms's are a big problem. Thats not a user fault, which is why my insurance company paid me out nearly $200,000.

I told them I fell asleep, leaving it charging. Thier opinion was that it did not matter in terms of cause of fire. But I advise people not to do the same thing I did.

I totally agree I was an idiot to trust that cheap ass bms, even if brain damage is why I fell asleep with it charging. I meant to unplug, but having west nile eat half my brain makes me do stupid shit all the time.

 

[SafeDiscDancing]

I told them I fell asleep, leaving it charging.

Which is why fast charging with direct observation and in depth knowledge about each cell is actually less risky than passive "go to sleep and trust the BMS" charging.

If you have a 250 wh battery and put in 100 wh in five minutes, then another 100 wh in five minutes (10 minutes this far) then you watch the taper phase plod along for the last 50 wh which is another 10 minutes.

20 minutes in total.

And you are resting up and maybe drinking some water or eating a snack... going to the bathroom.

Since you get into a routine you know how much time you have for each phase.

The middle five minutes is the best time to go to the refrigerator.

---------------------

Any time you walk away from something charging for more than two minutes you are taking unnecesary risks.

 

[gobi]

Storage Voltage:
Battery UNI and other places say 3.5v for li-ion cells for storage,

What is the consensus here? 3.5v?

for LFE = 50% SOC, as voltage is unreliable.
I drain my batts to 10% SOC by draining cells to 3v or bit lower and then Charge them up to 50% SOC.

I charge my storage cells every 3 months or so.

 

[SafeDiscDancing]

What is the consensus here? 3.5v?

As I understand it the high and low for Li-ion are about 3.0 volts and 4.2 volts.

Any time you get near those extremes the damage goes up exponentially.

But within those endpoints the cell is in pretty good shape anywhere.

Optimal storage is supposedly 3.9 volts, but some say 3.5 volts is better.

In the real world I suspect ANYTHING between 3.2 volts and 4.0 volts is probably going to cause minimal damage.

Fires are usually because a BMS wrecks a cell over time and then during charging it runs up to 4.5 volts and bursts into flames.

And the real problem is trust... people trust but do not verify... so they never bother to check what is real vs what is imaginary.

While imagining safety they get tragedy.

 

[dogman dan]

A functioning bms won't charge any cell group to 4.5v. I have watched all 16 cells voltage while charging and balancing, and a working bms works great. But when they don't work, its a huge risk. There is an inherent design flaw, where a burnt out fet burns out in the on position. That fet needs a second fet backing it up, and maybe a third one. So all three would have to fail for the thing to fail. In effect, every bms should be three bms's. This is how they do it for aircraft shit, a minimum of two systems in case one fails. Often three.

This is why my best guess is that the bms stopped functioning just before my fire.

Re walking away from something charging. No problem, when the battery is not inside your house. Outside, in the fire bunker you made for it. Heated bunker if that is what you need.

Otherwise, only a fool falls asleep with a bike battery charging. That would be me that day. I can use my brain damage from a virus as an excuse, but that did not fly very far with the wife!

 

[DogDipstick]

Storage Voltage:
Battery UNI and other places say 3.5v for li-ion cells for storage,

What is the consensus here? 3.5v?

My machines specify 3.875v/cell. Storage voltage,...

... and I always do a taper anyway to the charge termination voltage. I have been told here that CC/CV doesnt matter, taper wise, but I do it anyway. If the cell datasheet calls for a C/50 or a C/100 taper, I do it. Some say you are fine with a C/10 or C/20 taper . But I baseline discharge all cell groups int eh string and then meter wH going into them, until a V is met, CC, then the taper time, CV. Compliance is equalized and the cells all balance to the mV or better.

My hobby grade RC charger is one of the best, very good configuration. You can configure any type of charge/discharge, taper current, termination voltage... and has like 200 safety fail check codes that detect error on charge and relays a message. Stops charging. It is my most powerful charger, and can gang up for 32s no prob if you power the channels from 4 separate isolated fueling stacks of cells. It has a 48v input voltage. It is digital Buck/Boost converter, of some sort I have read ( analog hardware inside).

I made my own dumb charger from DIN relays and current shunt watchdogs, fuses, breakers, wifi data sent from eh garage to the computer in the house. ... no real education. Based on a big industrial HV DC plc drive. It works great, and can do a very high voltage should i want it to. Never had a problem. 3kW, 250V DC. If it sees an overcurrent on the input AC voltage, or, an overcurrent on the output DC voltage, it stops charge, along with everything fused and breaker. Taper is changed with the potential meter.

I have three Kingpans, 300w, 600w, and the 900w, I dont really trust them much. Never go in the house when they are on, outside. They dont have wifi data ad I do not trust the much...Taper is changed with a Pot there too: and a DeltaQuiQ 1500W, and a Elcon PFC 1000w. Both of those are much better built. I trust my homemade charger, and the DeltaQ, and am trying to learn about the programming for the Elcon. The DeltaQ is really complicated, has many many charge profiles avaible to install. Those are the chargers that never fail and you see on the post at the factory, never failing.

I do not use a BMS, now, ( have in the past, smaller packs). Battery murder system. If you use one, get the one with teh metal shunt, and relay, not the mosfet switch. A NO gas filled relay is very reliable. I think I might even feel safer now with my experiences with the big 200A-600A BMS with the metal shunt and contact relay. I may install one, some day, but I do not trust the plethora of the mosfet design we see.

I have left a charger on overnight once. It stopped the charge as expected, when I fell asleep inside, but still I do not like it and scorned myself for the action. Sure only happen once, but once is all it take for a bad day.

 

[dogman dan]

Charger only should stop it in time, when all the cell groups are ok. Did it many many times with big 52v bundles of lipo, outside. I'd tweak the charger for a slight undercharge, stopping it at 90% for some wiggle room. Kingpan chargers. I did balance charging with a slow RC charger, but inside in a fireplace, one smaller pack at a time.

It was the fu---- cheap bms that gave the false sense of safety that tricked this dumbass into charging on the bike in the garage, which burned down, nearly killing me and the wife, etc. And then I stupidly fell asleep instead of checking the bike that afternoon. Charge should have stopped about 5 or 6 pm, fire was at 8 pm.

 

[docw009]

I overcharged a battery, putting 48V into the 36V output connector. This bypassed the BMS overcharge circuits. There is, as I discovered later, some last ditch cell protection. Most of the cells got so hot that they popped their CID's, wjich is a device that lets out the gas and also disconnects the top of the cell. This happened with most of the cells, and removed the charging voltage, but a few cells in the string were still live.

I threw the whole pack into a pail of water and that had drained the unvented cells down to a low voltage, but they were still warm the next morning.

On the other hand, cells that have been systematically overcharged to 4.4-4.5 volts might not vent, and might form the dendrites that cause later internal short circuiting in subsequent usage. That could be the result of a BMS failure.

 

[docw009]

Another reason for a battery fire is poor construction. Seven years ago, all the packs I bought had cells that were glued together. Today, most shrink wrapped packs are still made like this. You might have two cells that are 20 volts apart touching each other with only the PVC wraps on both serving as insulation.Vibration or heat can wear holes in the PVC, Kaboom. Sure, maybe millions of packs were made like this in the past, but perhaps they had stronger nickel electrodes and good welds.

 

[simonov]

Problem with all these complicated procedures for safely charging batteries is this is a bicycle, a casual transportation machine, an appliance. It is not realistic to expect people to put more effort into charging their e-bikes than, for example, changing the oil in their cars, which they only have to do every 5,000 miles anyway. This needs to be like making coffee, or even simpler. *

And the comparison between car fires and EV fires is not really valid because no one stores (or fuels up) his car in his living room.

I can store my bike on the back patio and that's where I charge it. Plug and forget, I am under the impression I am protected by the fact I bought branded components (battery pack and charger) from a reputable US supplier (though the stuff was made in China after all). But I'm still careful. My next battery set-up will almost certainly be purchased from Luna.

But I have friends who might get ebikes, and they live in apartments, and they have no choice but to charge indoors. I'm a little uneasy about that, but I believe they can be safe by using components from reputable suppliers. Is that not true? Have we ever seen any fires with quality battery packs connected to quality smart chargers?

________

* I have an interesting perspective on that. I'm in the firearms business and in the last two years between 5 and 10 million Americans bought their first gun, and I think I got half of them of the phone at one point or another. After speaking with a lot of these folks I figured out a fundamental difference between guns and all other consumer items is a gun owner is expected to periodically disassemble the weapon to clean it. That is, some mechanical aptitude, however slight, is required simply to own a gun. I gave it some thought and decided this is unique.

Nothing else in the average American's household requires anything like the ability to field strip a pistol or shotgun. Complicated consumer products like automobiles and washing machines are maintained by professionals. Even bicycles are ride and forget, maybe spray some lube on the chain occasionally.

Meanwhile, I had people on the phone who flat out refused, at first, to break down their shotguns to the point we could address some issue they were having with my product; they didn't want to alter it from its store-bought configuration. It was always a joy when I finally got these folks to confidently dismantle and reassemble their firearms, since they had literally never done anything like that before in their lives.

DIYers like me and like the other members of this forum can easily forget how intimidating machinery can be to the average person (for that matter, most of what you guys talk about is still intimidating to me). These last two years of doing phone support for firearms n00bs really opened my eyes, and made me more thoughtful. Ebikes are marketed as consumer items, basically just faster versions of the bikes most of us have been riding since we were seven years old. It is unrealistic to expect people to follow complex safety protocols, so the products themselves have to do it instead. I think this is fine, personally, I'll spend the money on the good stuff; but the modern fashion for buying cheap off-brand crap on-line means there will always be a lot of frankly dangerous stuff out there.

 

[99t4]

Have we ever seen any fires with quality battery packs connected to quality smart chargers?

Define "smart chargers."

And what are the attributes that differentiate a low quality (unsafe?) battery pack and a quality battery pack?

But yes, even a "quality battery pack," if abused, can become dangerous while charging. And a "smart charger" can drift and overcharge a compromised battery pack.

Probably will never get to 100% foolproof, just because of the high amounts of energy stored in compact packages.

Look, (another car analogy) even the ubiquitous "filling up the tank at the gas station" is not 100% safe. A certain percentage of those common everyday actions end up in catastrophic flames.

We as a society have come to accept the safety risks. Not to mention the environmental, financial, and health risks.

 

[simonov]

And what are the attributes that differentiate a low quality (unsafe?) battery pack and a quality battery pack?

Well, quality of cells and construction, as has been already discussed in this thread. I'm buying my next battery from Luna, for example.

We as a society have come to accept the safety risks. Not to mention the environmental, financial, and health risks.

I certainly understand, and no one is more impatient with the "risk-free safetyist" society we have today than I am.

But there are two components to risk: the likelihood of an event, and the consequences. Watching your car go up in flames while pumping gas is surely terrible, but several orders of magnitude less terrible than watching your house burn.

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

Lithium-ion batteries in the electric vehicles on board are "keeping the fire alive", Captain Cabeças said, adding that specialist equipment to extinguish it was on the way.