em3ev best kit for speed

[Speedfreke]

Hi, I am pondering a mac 500-1000W kit plus battery from Paul's new web site em3ev.com/ .
Approx 35 mph sustainable speed is my goal but I am not sure which controller or battery or motor combination works best when efficiency is considered as a factor. I would consider 60V if it's neccessary but prefer 50V.
On my present build (which I plan to give to my girlfriend) I am using Ping 60V with 406 motor and 20amp controller. This gives a 32 mph top cruising speed and a 25 mile range on 26" wheels.
Need help in choosing components.

 

[neptronix]

35mph continuous is a lot of power for this motor - that's around 1500W continuous. For short periods of time ( like 10 miles on the flat ground ), this motor will take it just fine, but if you want to go that high speed, i would recommend a much larger motor on a smaller wheel; 24" or 20".

How many amp hours is your 60V ping?

Check out the ebikes.ca simulator - it will help you figure out what components are best;

http://ebikes.ca/simulator/

Note: The BMC 'speed' motor is equivalent to a 8T MAC, and the BMC torque motor is equivalent to a 10T MAC.

Hi, I am pondering a mac 500-1000W kit plus battery from Paul's new web site em3ev.com/ .
Approx 35 mph sustainable speed is my goal but I am not sure which controller or battery or motor combination works best when efficiency is considered as a factor. I would consider 60V if it's neccessary but prefer 50V.
On my present build (which I plan to give to my girlfriend) I am using Ping 60V with 406 motor and 20amp controller. This gives a 32 mph top cruising speed and a 25 mile range on 26" wheels.
Need help in choosing components.

 

[Speedfreke]

The ping is 15amps. As far as the Justin's simulator is considered, it's too complicated for me. Why is it when you decrease the speed the motor gets hotter? and range can vary to infinity? Sorry above my head.
Oh, and for 10 miles max distance, that's ok with me

 

[Speedfreke]

When you say max distance is 10 miles (at 35 mph) which motor and other components are you suggesting?
As far as wheel size is concerned I already have a strong dual supension Mtn bike lined up.

 

[neptronix]

I'm not sure how you're getting those results!
Anyway, a 15AH ping can put out about 30A tops.. 60v x 30A.

But voltage sag will mean that you can only hit ~32mph on an 8T motor. And you need a controller that can do 30A continuously. That will stress the battery out though, running it at 30A continuously.

That's about as good as it gets with your battery unfortunately. If you could accept a lower top speed, a 10T would do really well at ~27mph with your 20A controller.

The ping is 15amps. As far as the Justin's simulator is considered, it's too complicated for me. Why is it when you decrease the speed the motor gets hotter? and range can vary to infinity? Sorry above my head.
Oh, and for 10 miles max distance, that's ok with me

 

[Speedfreke]

Neptronix: I think you misread something, I'm getting 32 mph on a 406 crystalyte with 60V 15amp ping and 20 amp controller. Just something I threw together with leftover parts and a good deal on the 406.
I will probably not be using any of those components on my new build with the mac 500-1000. I need suggestions as to which mac motor, controller, battery combination from EV3MV.com

 

[neptronix]

32mph on a 406 at 60V is about right actually. Your leftovers aren't so bad :lol:

I wasn't sure that you intended to buy a new battery. If that's the case, then on an 8T, you need another 60V battery.
You can run the 6T on 48v to get around 35mph. But the amps will be very high - >35A continuous, so if you go with a lifepo4 battery, then a 25AH-30AH is advisable for best performance and top speed.

Just remember that you are running a 1000W continuous motor at >1500W continuous if you do 35mph. It's not the best motor for the job, but it will be the lightest motor capable of dishing out that power. If your terrain is flat, it should work OK, but if you have hot summers, you might be pushing it.

Neptronix: I think you misread something, I'm getting 32 mph on a 406 crystalyte with 60V 15amp ping and 20 amp controller. Just something I threw together with leftover parts and a good deal on the 406.
I will probably not be using any of those components on my new build with the mac 500-1000. I need suggestions as to which mac motor, controller, battery combination from EV3MV.com

 

[dogman dan]

Basicly, what's being said is that the wattage needed to go 35 continuous is a suprising amount more than it takes the 406 to go 32. So that increase from 1000w ballpark to 1500w ballpark can get a motor a bit hotter than the 1000 watts did on the 406.

But 35mph, 1500w continuous is still pretty much in the range tolerable by the cheaper dd motors. 40 mph is about where the line gets crossed, and rides need to be shorter for the 9c motors, or motors with similar design. While the Mac WILL do it, it might tolerate the extra power for less distance than dd motors, which can cool themselves a bit better. So much depends on how long you intend to be riding 35 mph. It's it's 15 min, then just choose a higher speed winding Mac. But if you want 45 min, better go direct drive motor.

I'd say get a 9c in 2806 winding, or the Crystalyte HS motor from Grin. You should just about get to wind up to 35mph eventually with either of those motors using your current controller and battery. To really wake up those motors though, you'd want a more powerfull battery that will allow more amps.

Cellman most likely can supply you with a faster winding muxus dd motor, but his stock winding is the medium speed 2807 winding. You'd not get 35mph from 60v with that winding.

BTW, the stock recipe to just barely hit 40mph and cruise 35 for 10 miles, is a 2807 or similar motor, 72v, 40 amps controller. Usually RC lipo for the battery. That's the cheap hot rod ebike.

See? I don't just recomend the slow windings I love so much to everybody.

 

[neptronix]

Maybe my 9C DD was worn out from me beating on it quite a bit, but that thing would get hot in a 26" wheel quicker than the MAC would. 35mph while cruising along the streets seemed to be asking a lot of it, and it had less torque to boot. It would get heat soaked rather quick :/

A Crystalyte HS3540 in a 24" wheel @ 60V would do exactly what he wants with high efficiency and no drama. 1500W constant, no problem.

 

[ebent]

For high powered ebikes like the one considered, beefy high end brakes would be an important safety feature to consider. Bike brakes are not engineered for that kind of use. Yes, on any bike you'll ocasionally be rolling down a steep hill, but not all the time. I'd hate to ride it with a brake failure. But it could be lots of fun with all that power. Perhaps motorcycle type clothing for protection at that speed. I'm more concerned about the other guy, not necessarily the ev rider.

 

[Drunkskunk]

I love a good Clyte 40X. I've been abusing my 408 since 2007 and I put it truogh more hell than I would ever consider giving my 9Cs. They don't have the torque or efficancy, but they do love abuse!

Up to 30mph, a MAC might be fine. But the power needed to go faster adds up quickly. I wouldn't use a MAC or a MXUS for long above 35. That's HS3540 territory, or oldskewl 5303 territory

 

[wesnewell]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V1000W-26-Rear-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Motor-Kit-E-Bike-Cycling-Hub-Conversion-/370646092582
This will do it with ease with a 60V battery pack. Stock controller has 63V caps so don't exceed 15S lipo, or 63v max with other chemistries unless you get another controller.

 

[TiagoSantos]

A friend of mine gets 32mph at 48v (16s pack from cell man) on his 8T mac. I get around 27mph at 36v (12s cell man pack) on a 7T Mac.. A 7T motor with a 48V pack would probably top 35mph!

 

[Speedfreke]

Lot of great suggestions . I have enough to make a good decision. I never realized it takes 50% more power to get that extra 3 mph speed and then worries over excess heat. Still thinking mac for it's weight, size and stealth. Not sure whether to go 48V or 60V, maybe (just maybe) lower my expectations. Weight of the battery is a factor and I'd like a 22 mile range to go right-round-the-bay.
BTW Dogman, your writing style is superb. Clear and elegant. I enjoyed reading your numerous posts.

 

[neptronix]

I just tested my MAC motor to see if i had demagnetized the mag ring at all, and apparently i have. Not so happy about that; explains why my efficiency has been lower lately. I did it doing 1500w continuous power with 2300w peaks for short periods of time, and doing pretty mega hill climbs as well at 1100-1600w continuous.

As a result, my motor has been producing more heat and has had less punch as of late

So i retract my statements about it being safe to go >35mph for ~10 miles at a time.

You're free to learn the same lesson though!

 

[Speedfreke]

de-magnetize? how did you test for that? how old is your mac bike?
My 408 (not the 406) motor is 4 yrs old and has lots of power still even though it's been thoroughly abused - rain, snow, cold, dirt. I t started off with 72V SLA. With only a 20 amp controller it still had plenty of guts.

 

[veloman]

A friend of mine gets 32mph at 48v (16s pack from cell man) on his 8T mac. I get around 27mph at 36v (12s cell man pack) on a 7T Mac.. A 7T motor with a 48V pack would probably top 35mph!

I get 35mph no pedal, aero tucking on my 8t Mac in a 26x1.85 tire with cellmans 16s lifepo4. Even pushed 37-38mph when I had a tailwind or slight downhill. 32 is about worst case on a flat road.

For the OP, get a 9c or clyte DD. the Mac is for acceleration and hills, and lower power.

 

[neptronix]

My MAC is about 2 years old now, and yes, heat can demagnetize neodymium magnets.
A higher no load per volt than the motor originally had proves this. The lower strength of the magnets, the more exaggerated it is.

So my motor's no load should be 340rpm at 39v, but it's ~380rpm now.
The motor was very snappy when i bought it, and is still pretty powerful, but makes more heat now ( is less efficient ) and doesn't climb hills as good. It's not a dramatic difference, but i notice it.

Mind you this is from overheating the MAC quite a bit multiple times. Geared motors do not shed heat well, so they remain hotter at the core for longer. That's one of the main reasons why they can't be pushed so far.

Your 408 was a slow wind, so on 72v it didn't produce a ton of speed ( what, 30mph? ) and thus didn't run a lot of continuous watts. Your SLA battery would have also sagged a lot which made for a lower voltage than 72v.

de-magnetize? how did you test for that? how old is your mac bike?
My 408 (not the 406) motor is 4 yrs old and has lots of power still even though it's been thoroughly abused - rain, snow, cold, dirt. I t started off with 72V SLA. With only a 20 amp controller it still had plenty of guts.

 

[dogman dan]

Interesting that you demagnitized that motor some without flames coming out of it. The only motor I ever knew I damaged the magnets on was a heinzmann I overvolted. It was obviously flamed, and melted the brush holders completely. The magnets would not even stick to the fridge after.

Lots of discussions about what max temps are ok for motors. I run some of my stuff quite hot, but for a reliable transportation bike I have tried to keep the motor below 200F. Below 200F, you won't even discolor windings varnish.

How hot you get going 35 mph may depend a lot on how fast you get to 35. At 72v 20 amps, you take a long time to get going, but tend to heat the motor slower than if you have twice the wattage to use at the start up. And cruising fast uphill, even a hill that looks awful flat will heat up things much faster than a true flat ride at 35.

A hell of a lot to be said for the idea of hopping up the 406 and get the girlfreind a mac. Or the HS clyte for you.

 

[neptronix]

The stator on the MAC and BMC motors is pretty tough. I've only seen one person melt a stator on here. They were running 1500W-2000W continuous. Before they melted it, they were complaining about the motor progressively making more heat - sound familiar? :lol:

That being said, i've ran my MAC with a 36-42A current limit all it's life, on 36, 46, and 57v nominal. The hottest it got was when i ran 36v up a hill at full throttle on a 2-3 mile >7% grade. I am sure that i was running about ~50% efficiency doing that. When i ran 57V lipo, my peak MPH was 38mph, and i spent a bit of time ripping along on mildly hilly terrain on a full charge. Got the motor rather hot doing that too ( during the winter, nonetheless ). I think i've been operating it about 2 inches to the left of the line where it'll blow.. :lol:

Yeah, if you run 35mph and encounter a bit of a hill, the amperage can go up quite a bit. If you don't give it the amps it wants, the rpm drops significantly, and the efficiency drops too. The efficiency curve is broader than most DD motors, so you have some leeway.

 

[CogHog]

I am running a Torque BMC at 53 volts for the the first year. It seems to have less trouble getting up the hills then my Speed motor. I can do 28 mph on the flat using 700 watts with the torque motor. Now I am running 59 volts of LiPo's and get 31 mph on the flats using the same 700 watts, Going up hills I can do 27 mph using 1400 watts (4% grade). total weight 230 pounds. I never go to far maybe 7 miles. If I do I take it easy as not to not heat it up. My supplier says that the motors don't have the heating issues as they did before. I should be doing some destructive testing as this motor didn't cost me a dime. But I'm using it to save gas. Sounds like if we can control our watts we keep the heat down. Yeehaw Neptronix

 

[neptronix]

My use case isn't too normal i guess. I like my 40+ mile long rides.

 

[Speedfreke]

In this thread it sounds like some people are getting that 35 mph on Macs (8T or 6T , maybe 7T is a good compromise) using 48V and probably 35 amp controller. It's pretty tempting to go this route as you can use a smaller and lighter battery and possibly increase the Ahr rating for greater distance. Not to mention the free-wheeling ability. Ever try pedalling a crystalyte bike with a dead battery for any appreciable distance?

 

[melodious]

So is the verdict in for the BMC v4 with the "more robust" gearing material?

Quote taken off of http://www.ebikessf.com/node/235 in regards to BMC v4 speed wind:
" V4S (Speed) is basically an upgraded V3 motor (discontinued). Upgrades include doubled phase wires through the axle and V4 clutch. This is the highest rpm BMC hub motor designed for achieving higher top speeds of about 30-33mph in 26" wheel at 50V, 25A.

WARNING: this motor is often misrepresented and advertized by dealers as 2-3KW motor capable of reaching speeds over 40mph. Our years of experience riding and repairing these and similar motors suggest that for reliable opration, it should not be used at more than 1500 watts and it's best to keep speeds under 30mph (in 26" wheel), that applies to all BMC geared hub motors. Sure, it will go 40 + mph at 2000 - 3000 Watts, but that is comparable to running an internal combustion engine constantly exceeding maximum rpm it is designed for. Our advise for riders who desire speeds over 30-35mph and reliable hub motor operation, is to use a direct drive hub motor."

There is a build that incorporates a BMC v2 (speed) into a 29er Surly Karate Monkey frame (front hub motor) which achieves upper 20s-lower 30s MPH on flats. Build thread here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32160

 

[Speedfreke]

BTW, about 4 yrs ago I put together a 408 with 20amp controller and 72V SLA. I could have gone 36 or 48V battery no bms required. Nowadays with lifepo4 and lipo it seems that batteries come in a variety of voltages like 50 or 52 and their corresponding chargers and bms'. Therefore going from one build to another there are fewer interchangeable parts than in the past.
I was interested in putting together a 60V A123 battery using a spare hi-powered 60V Ping bms and charger but that fell apart when I realized that the max voltages on the batteries were different and required their own charger and bms.