Best bang for the buck DD Rear Hub Kit

[Bullfrog]

The weights below are for a bare motor, if any of my data is incorrect, please let me know so I can correct it, Thanks.

The motors below are the ones I am still considering (in no particular order)...if anybody has information about them or personal experience (good or bad), please help me decide:

A. Crystalyte H55: 22 pounds

B. Crystalyte Crown: 17.6 pounds The Crown does have a 40mm stator. I ran it through the Grin Tech Motor Simulator against other motors and for the most part, everything that had a stator that is 40mm or wider performed VERY similarly.

C. MXUS 3K Turbo: 20.1 pounds

Soooo, what is the "lightest" motor produced by a reputable manufacturer that has at least a 40mm wide stator? I plan to run Statorade or ATF as a cooling fluid and I'd like the top speed of my bike to be 35-40 mph so I don't believe over heating will be an issue. I ran every motor mentioned here, and a bunch of other motors as well, in the Grin Tech Motor Simulator and everything that had at least a 40mm wide stator, performed about the same except for the time to overheat...after I increased the incline.

Examples of what I have ruled out are the QS205/273 and the Cromotor...they are both very good motors but they are a little too heavy.

 

[999zip999]

The mxus is what I have I'd get another one. Got it in a group sell here on ES. I got a v2 4t. I melted a mxus v1 5t and next I want a v3 3t bare motor to be built with spaim 13/14 butted spokes in a Weissman rim. @ 72v 65amps max. And will get my motor thru mxus.
The QS 3,000 is too big and heavy for a bike.

 

[Bullfrog]

The mxus is what I have I'd get another one. Got it in a group sell here on ES. I got a v2 4t. I melted a mxus v1 5t and next I want a v3 3t bare motor to be built with spaim 13/14 butted spokes in a Weissman rim. @ 72v 65amps max. And will get my motor thru mxus.
The QS 3,000 is too big and heavy for a bike.

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999zip999 ~Thank You for the info! And of course I have another question ...What is your top speed on level ground with the 5T MXUS on a 72v battery and what size tire are you running?

​

Info for everyone...there are three tire choices I prefer:

A. Maxxis 26 x 2.5 Hookworm

B. Schwalbe 26 x 2.4 Super Moto-X (the "Super Moto-X" is a different tire than the "Super Moto")

C. Duro 26 x 3.0 Beach Bum

I haven't tried this one yet and the sidewall may be too stiff to give good feedback but figured I'd mention it...the Schwalbe Pick-Up. The widest 26" version of it is a 2.35" and it is also available in a 27.5 x 2.6. This is a link to the Schwalbe Pick-Up tires: Schwalbe Pick-Up | Super Defense | Black-Reflex | 26x2.35 | Addix E | 11159260

You can get the Schwalbe Super Moto-X in a 27.5 x 2.8 as well as the 26" mentioned above. Wheel/Tire selection is always a challenge for me because I like to run something that is fairly wide to give me a little more cushion/traction but I like to keep the wheel/tire my motor is mounted in relatively small in diameter and get the speed I want by selecting the motor Kv/winding. When you go larger with the tire Outside Diameter (OD) it works the motor harder because the tire OD determines the final gearing.

Questions for anyone...

A. What is the difference between the V1, V2, and V3 of the MXUS 3K Turbo motor? The V1 motors may not be available anymore, just figured we should include them for historical purposes.

B. Has anybody out there tried the Crystalyte Crown TC4080 or TC40100 motor? If yes, how old was the motor...Crystalyte changed the design a little bit over the years and I just want to make sure I understand which version of the motor we are talking about.

C. The Crystalyte H55 motors come in some of the Stealth ebikes that are produced in Australia...if anyone has tried the H55 whether in a Stealth bike or otherwise, I sure would like to hear your impression of the motor.

Thank You .

 

[E-HP]

Nothing good comes of using the wheels laced to hub motors. Unless you get them built to order from an outfit like Grin Technologies in Vancouver BC, what you get is the cheapest most horrible rim money can buy, built up with the cheapest way-too-thick plain steel spokes and nipples money can buy, assembled by a child in a hurry.

I ordered my Leaf motor, specifying the wider 26" rim. The rim wasn't too bad, a Mavic double wall, single eyelet. Spokes seemed to be the regular 12 gauge ones used on most hub motors, but the wheel was true, but I never used it since I relaced it to a 24" rim in the end. Better than my MXUS ebay hub, that had the cheapest rim available.

 

[999zip999]

5t 38mph 4t 43mph. V1 steel stator v2 aluminum stor v3 curved magnets. Why get the v1 go to v3

 

[Bullfrog]

5t 38mph 4t 43mph. V1 steel stator v2 aluminum stor v3 curved magnets. Why get the v1 go to v3

No argument from me and a 5T would be perfect for the speed I want .

Have you been able to find a web site for MXUS? I seem to find everything but a legitimate web site when I Google "MXUS 3K Turbo motor".

Thanks

 

[amberwolf]

I'll ask NBPower again in a different way so hopefully I can get a legitimate answer.

GLWT. Getting a straight answer out of just about *any* company, even ones that speak English (or whatever someone's language is) natively, is damned tough these days.

(I recently had an issue at Etsy because they have an extremely confusing communications system, and the *only* way you can contact them at all is via their chat system...but they don't really listen, and you might as well be talking to an AU (artificial unintelligent thing)...you can't get them to give a straight answer to anything you ask, either. If there isn't any other way to answer a quesiton they just say they'll pass it on to their "specialist", but you will NEVER hear back from them about anything. )

Have you been able to find a web site for MXUS? I seem to find everything but a legitimate web site when I Google "MXUS 3K Turbo motor".

AFAICR, this is the MXUS company site:

Home

mxusebikekit.com

 

[amberwolf]

A. What is the difference between the V1, V2, and V3 of the MXUS 3K Turbo motor?

There's a big thread about them around here somewhere that gives specifics...but from my (poor) memory: V1 had a stamped steel stator support, and one set of halls. V2 went to a cast aluminum stator support (whcih V3 has too), and IIRC V3 added a second set of halls as a spare.

I have a V2 and a V3 and neither one is very good quality (about the same as the ancient 9C "500w" hubmotors, which IIRC were clones of the MXUS version (or the MXUS was clone of the 9C, we'll never know).

One of them is still on my SB Cruiser trike, the other I had to fix a factory-defect intermittent winding short to the stator by drizzling CoronaDope down into the windings, and force in some thin spacers in certain places. It worked, but I didn't really trust it anymore. The axles of both of them have been broken more than once (I welded new ends on, not being able to replace the axles. Had to modify the defective one's phase wires, upgrading to 10g solid wire, two passed out one axle end and one out the other, modifying my repaired axle, to handle decent phase current during some testing of an FOC controller. Eventually I replaced that MXUS with a smaller lighter "500w" Ultramotor off an old Stromer, which I'm still running on there, and honestly I'd say it works as well or better than the MXUS did, with a 33/40A generic 15FET sensorless controller. It also has one hell of a better axle (the axle has actually damaged the dropouts, with zero damage to the axle itself, from enough torque to force the clamping dropouts apart! (since then I rebuilt them to be pinching with a bolt across the ends of the dropouts both inboard and outboard, where previously it was just the inboard side, and a bolt more or less across the axle itself).


Oh, also, I think that big thread determined that the MXUS 450x (x=turn count) "3K" or "3000w" motor is also not actually a 3000w motor...unless you run it in a 20" or smaller wheel--in a bigger wheel it just doesn't perform like it's supposed to according to MXUS's specs.

 

[Bullfrog]

Thanks amberwold.

I remembered one of the Endless Sphere's more knowledgeable posters had a MXUS but I couldn't remember who it was .

 

[2old]

Just to add my probably less than two cents worth, I purchased a YES 1500w system ($275) since I had had good luck with their 1000w (at 52V with 30 amp controller it went 33 mph and seemed to have a little left, but I didn't). This has a much more massive motor and 35 amp controller that's about twice the size of the last one. My granddaughter absconded with my GPS speedo so I don't know the top speed yet, but it seems more robust than the 1000w. YES sells everything from toilet paper to sporting equipment and it may not be possible to get any information on the motor.

 

[Chalo]

My granddaughter absconded with my GPS speedo so I don't know the top speed yet,

You can use a GPS speedometer app on your phone. If it matters to you, anyway.

 

[raylo32]

Thinking of adding an inexpensive hub system to my GF's bike and these Yes look promising. So, the 48V version of the 1000W motor will run on 52V battery? And what kind of rear gear interface does it have? Cassette or freewheel?

Just to add my probably less than two cents worth, I purchased a YES 1500w system ($275) since I had had good luck with their 1000w (at 52V with 30 amp controller it went 33 mph and seemed to have a little left, but I didn't). This has a much more massive motor and 35 amp controller that's about twice the size of the last one. My granddaughter absconded with my GPS speedo so I don't know the top speed yet, but it seems more robust than the 1000w. YES sells everything from toilet paper to sporting equipment and it may not be possible to get any information on the motor.

 

[amberwolf]

I remembered one of the Endless Sphere's more knowledgeable posters had a MXUS but I couldn't remember who it was .

FWIW, I also have a QS205 from a member here who sheared off both axle ends on it...but that was at 5 digit kW levels for a "3kw" motor, on a "dirtbike", so way more than it was designed for. Yet, when I opened it up here, there's nothing wrong with anything else inside, and its MUCH better built than the MXUS (or any other motor I've had except for the UltraMotors, which are also well-built of quality materials and parts). Also, the axles are "easy" to replace; I have another QS205 (stator only) that came with an axle for it and for this one, whenever I get around to that.

It's heavier than the MXUS; I forget by how much. The MXUS thread has weights and stuff in it, I might have it in my SB Cruiser thread too. The SB Cruiser thread does have a post in it about the QS205, showing it's disassembly and weighing it's parts on the scale, probably 3 years back, can't recall for sure.

 

[999zip999]

I've seen him I held them in my hand qs205 is a high quality motor with great wires. But too heavy for a mountain bike it is for a motorcycle.
The mxus is about as heavy as you want to put in a bike yeah a little more basic of a motor but mine works. Tell us what voltage and amperage you're going to run to that

 

[2old]

You can use a GPS speedometer app on your phone. If it matters to you, anyway.

Thanks; it doesn't matter since I'm only going as fast as seems safe, and unfortunately I have an antiquated phone.

 

[2old]

Thinking of adding an inexpensive hub system to my GF's bike and these Yes look promising. So, the 48V version of the 1000W motor will run on 52V battery? And what kind of rear gear interface does it have? Cassette or freewheel?

Freewheel, and the 1000w system is better than the 1500w IMO since you can go fast enough with it and it's quite a bit smaller (motor and controller). There's a long thread on the 1000w system in the reviews thread. If your GF is happy with 20 mph, you might consider a 350w geared motor since these DD's (comparitavely) are behemoths.

 

[raylo32]

She doesn't need to go faster than 20 but once in awhile we tow a dog trailer so a little extra power would be good. I have never had a hub setup since I have been into mid-drive motors mostly. I could do one of those for her more easily because there would be no learning curve. IDK... no rush.

Freewheel, and the 1000w system is better than the 1500w IMO since you can go fast enough with it and it's quite a bit smaller (motor and controller). There's a long thread on the 1000w system in the reviews thread. If your GF is happy with 20 mph, you might consider a 350w geared motor since these DD's (comparitavely) are behemoths.

 

[tomjasz]

i pull a 50lb loaded trailer at 19mph with 350W. add a 21700 cell pack in 36v for some amazing mileage. i’ve moved backwards from 1500W to 500W max.

 

[Bullfrog]

Just a plug for the AW 1,000w rear kit I bought from Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00Q8JT9H2/ref=twister_B09VXR4JY4?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

They currently have two 5% discount offers available which makes the price ~$225 and there is no charge for shipping. It comes with a Z910 connector between the motor and controller which makes it super easy to remove the rear wheel if you need to change a tire. The kit also comes with a 30A controller, a decent quality rim, and everything you'll need except a battery and a torque arm, assuming you choose to run a torque arm.

As far as whether or not to run a torque arm, 1,000w is probably OK if your frame/dropouts are steel but I would run one if you install the kit on an aluminum framed bike. Grin Tech did a study on dropout requirements and my advice is based on their results:

Torque Arms - Grin Products - Product Info

For every force there is an equal and opposite force, and for every torque there is an equal and opposite torque. Sadly with import hub motors this opposing torque is often born entirely by bicycle dropouts that are not up to the task, allowing the motor axle to spin out. Grin has pioneered the...

ebikes.ca

The acceleration with the AW kit was OK and the top speed was around 31-32 mph (52v battery) using the throttle only (no pedaling) on level ground. If I had not been spoiled by the acceleration of my MAC while running a 52v battery and my controller set to 55A, I may have been impressed. It just didn't have enough acceleration for me .

 

[Bullfrog]

Below is my current short list of the Direct Drive motors I am still considering and the weights listed are for the bare motor...listed from lightest to heaviest and the weights were from the respective company's web sites:

A. Crystalyte Crown TC40 series, 40mm stator, 17.6 lbs.

B. Crystalyte H55 series, 55mm stator, 22 lbs.

C. MXUS 3K Turbo V3, 45mm stator, 22 lbs.

If anybody is looking for a good motor that is less expensive and relatively light...the Leaf 1,500 motor is an option...it weighs 15.1 lbs.

The QS205 and the Cromotor are very good motors but they are a little too heavy and too wide for my application which is going to be a steel framed hardtail with 135mm dropouts. Haven't decided whether I am going to run a 14s6p (52v) or a 20s5p (72v) battery yet. My 52v battery is capable of ~60A and the 72v battery is capable of ~100A and both are limited by the BMS and not the cells.

 

[calab]

Yes, I have too, 1800w way way down, like you. But having suitable power is the ideal, in the ideal worlds of dreaming, I'd like a good, optional 1500w pull every now and then. Well, once every day or two because we all got that hill we hate, everyone does.

i pull a 50lb loaded trailer at 19mph with 350W. add a 21700 cell pack in 36v for some amazing mileage. i’ve moved backwards from 1500W to 500W max.

 

[Bullfrog]

Hmmmm, did a run using the Grin Tech Motor Simulator to compare the MXUS and the TC4080. I artificially decreased Kv for the MXUS motor until the speeds were identical so I could compare the steady state temperatures. With 2 degrees of incline, the MXUS runs 149C and the TC4080 runs 104C. That is a huge difference but I am not sure I believe the Crystalyte temperature since I also ran the Cromotor under the same conditions and it was also hotter than the Crystalyte motor.

 

[Bullfrog]

Axles breaking....

I have read in the past that the Crystalyte motors had axle problems but that was about 10 years ago when I first started playing with electric bikes and at that time I went with the MAC so I haven't kept up with the latest info.

Is anybody aware of any improvements Crystalyte and/or MXUS has made to their axles?

Thanks Everybody...I also see some discussion on lower powered and less expensive motors/kits and I think that is great. The more info is available, the more we can help others...please keep up the good communication .

 

[999zip999]

I have an old Crystal light hanging in the garage I think it's a 3525 or something. It runs but goes thump thump thump I think it's a bent axle but I'd have to look up where to get one and the energy to replace it

 

[amberwolf]

Some thoughts, that don't directly answer your question, but may be helpful anyway:

Hubmotor axles have generally been problematic, because of their general design--the double-D flatted-axle to transfer torque has a few design issues, from the tiny surface area available to transfer torque (a few square millimeters) to a bike frame that isn't designed to accept torque against it there, to the sharp transitions between sections of the axle that act as stress risers where it's much easier to shear off those sections, to the diagonal hole drilled thru the axle (usually on just one side) to pass the wiring thru, weakening the entire axle at that point.

Some of the axles are worse because of the materials used or the casting or machining methods, and I would guess that these tend to occur in batches within a production run (because that's usually how those problems work out)...and you can't know whether your particular motor is one of those until it fails, unless there's some visually obvious defect (casting bubbles, machining errors, etc)....so it's also impossible to say whether the processes have been "permanently" improved.

Some manufacturers (QSMotor, TDCM/Ultramotor are two I can think of) seem to do a generally better job at the axle manufacturing, though their designs have the same flaws.


Generally as long as you are not exceeding the manufacturer-rated torque limits, where available, (not *seller* ratings as those are too-often made up) and not using them for "offroad" (or very poor-condition roads) stuff, or abusing them in heavy cargo/etc applications (like mine), and you have proper torque-transfer hardware mounted to or built into your bike frame to secure the axle, it's not all that likely you'll have a problem.

Buuuut...it's really common here on ES (and probably elsewhere) to push motors beyond what the manufacturer "guarantees" they're good for, and that's where the grey areas start, and the potential for problems becomes significantly higher.

Many, but not all, motors have replaceable axles, so as long as the manufacturer sells those (QSmotors will, though I don't know of any others that do besides sometimes Bafang if you can get hold of them and they feel like it) or you can machine your own or have one made for you, or pull one out of a same-series/version motor broken in some other way, you can fix a motor with a broken axle.

You can also have one made that doesn't have the weaknesses noted above, and mounts in a different way, such as the completely hollow tube Farfle used on his dual-width completely-rebuilt "magic pie" motor. Or the multiple-bolt-on-the-end type APL used on his Axial Flux motor build(s), but still works with the original stator and covers. Those generally will require frame or mounting modifications to go along with them, but if you have to go this far to keep from breaking axles, you'd've had to do just as much work to properly secure a flatted-axle type anyway.