From BBS01B to BBS02B: 500W+36V or 750W+48V?

Shohreh

1 mW
Joined
May 22, 2022
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18
Hello,

Half surprisingly, turns out the 250W+36V BBS01B mid-drive on a friend's cargo bike is having a hard time climbing a ~one mile hill, with a top 10% grade.

Would the extra power and torque provided by the 500W+36V BBS02B be good enough, or should he really replace the motor + battery to install a 750W+48V BB02B?

If the 500W+36V looks good enough, is it plug and play when replacing a BBS01B? The LBS is generally good with bikes, but isn't super used to working with e-Bikes and kits.

Thank you.
 

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Hello,

Half surprisingly, turns out the 250W+36V BBS01B mid-drive on a friend's cargo bike is having a hard time climbing a ~one mile hill, with a top 10% grade.

Would the extra power and torque provided by the 500W+36V BBS02B be good enough, or should he really replace the motor + battery to install a 750W+48V BB02B?

If the 500W+36V looks good enough, is it plug and play when replacing a BBS01B? The LBS is generally good with bikes, but isn't super used to working with e-Bikes and kits.

Thank you.
Is the assumption that your friend is pedaling, and what gearing does the bike have?
 
Half surprisingly, turns out the 250W+36V BBS01B mid-drive on a friend's cargo bike is having a hard time climbing a ~one mile hill, with a top 10% grade.

What speed do they have to maintain? What does the entire bike, rider, and cargo weigh, worst-case? What are the worst-case headwinds, ever? That plus the worst-case grade can be used on the ebikes.ca motor simulator to guesstimate the power requirements.

Once you know those, then you can be more sure of whether a particular system could do the job.
 
If he can fit the throttle it can give a surprising boost. Also if the motor will handle a 13s/48V battery it will give it more kick.
 
Yes, he does pedal. On the lowest gear on the Nexus and the highest assistance level on the Bafang as I recommended, the bike goes down to ~8km/h. Still ~twice faster than walking, but he'd like to go a bit faster (15km/h ?) to cut down on commuting time.

Fully loaded, the bike is around ~200kg/440 lbs.

No throttle since it's Europe, although I know that over here, installing a > 250W motor turns the bike legally into a moped (hence license plate, insurance, etc.)

Ideally, we'd like to just have the LBS replace the motor and keep the 36V battery. Both the motor and battery are new.

Not knowing much about that tool, ebikes.ca says:
 

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On the lowest gear on the Nexus and the highest assistance level on the Bafang as I recommended, the bike goes down to ~8km/h. Still ~twice faster than walking, but he'd like to go a bit faster (15km/h ?) to cut down on commuting time.

Fully loaded, the bike is around ~200kg/440 lbs.
Given those, and assuming 26" drive wheel and the gearing 2:1 from motor to drivetrain and 42/30 from there to wheel based on your simulation link, then a 10% grade with no pedalling (to determine motor-only power required), the bike cannot go faster than 0.6kph, even though your simulation has a ~750w controller.

If I add in 100w of human input it'll go up to 6.3kph, and takes 639W (17.4A) from the battery, and 268W from the motor. Lowering the gearing (which usually slows it down) to 42/34 increases speed to 8.1kph, and takes 731W (20A) from the battery, and 377W from the motor. Both overheat the motor in about 4 minutes, using up 102Wh/km and 90Wh/km respectively, which if it didn't overheat would give around 9km of range in either case with the 36v 23Ah battery listed. If it's a lower capacity battery it would have even less range.


Using the same simulation, modified for a 40A (1500w) controller instead, it provides 15.9kph under the same conditions, but overheats the motor twice as fast, and pulls twice as much power / current from the battery.


I'm guessing this simulation is not accurate for your specific motor, but it's hard to simulate middrives without knowing all the characteristics of it (the RPM/V of the internal motor itself, the gearing ratio from it to the input of hte bike's drivetrain, and then the gearing ratio from the front of the bike's drivetrain at that point to the wheel itself, including any IGH gearing. I don't know those characteristics for your bike or drive system (I think the drive system info is available somewhere here on ES but I have not looked for it yet).

So without that info, then a guesstimate is that if you can get 8km/h out of the existing system under the condtions you have now, then it should take around twice the power to get almost twice the speed (not counting the higher air resistance at the higher speed, since it's still slow enough to make that negligible).

So, in theory, if you have a system only providing 250W that does 8km/h, an otherwise identical system providing 500w should do at least close to 15km/h.

Since it could take at least twice the battery power as the present system (for situations exceeding the present power requirements, like this hill), the battery has to be able to handle that and have the capacity to provide that doubled power for at least as long as it does now, assuming it is presently sufficient.

What are the battery specifications? Meaning, what is the Ah capacity (or Wh), and what is the continuous current limit it can handle? You'll need to know those to know if it can be used with a higher power system or not.

How many Ah (or Wh) does it presently take to cover the trip distance? If it is more than half of the battery capacity, the battery may require a stop to recharge along the way, if the doubled power usage lasts long enough.

If you don't know the Wh/Ah usage, do you know what percentage of the battery is used at the end of the trip? That can give you a guesstimate of whether you need a bigger (or additional) battery.
 
Thanks much for the infos.

The 36V battery is 11,6Ah hence 417,6Wh. One router I used to draw the steepest ride (3km) gives an estimate of 80Wh.

So it looks like if he wanted to go 2x faster, ie. 15kph, the 500W might be good enough. In that case, going 36V would save buying a new battery. If it proves to be too small with the new motor, I'll tell him to shop for a bigger one.

Thanks again.
 
I asked a kit vendor how easy it was to replace a BBS01B with a BBS02B.

He replied that the cables are the same, but the battery must be able to provide up to 25 amps.

Considering the battery say "11Ah", does it mean it can only send 11 amps at most, so won't work with a BBS02B with the BMS shutting it off when the motor pulls more than 11 amps?
 

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I asked a kit vendor how easy it was to replace a BBS01B with a BBS02B.

He replied that the cables are the same, but the battery must be able to provide up to 25 amps.

Considering the battery say "11Ah", does it mean it can only send 11 amps at most, so won't work with a BBS02B with the BMS shutting it off when the motor pulls more than 11 amps?
No, 11Ah is an indicator of how much energy the battery stores, not the current capability. You need more information than is provided on the label (cell configuration and type) to determine that, but based on the little information provided, I'd say no, it isn't sufficient.
 
I also fear it can't send 25 amps. If that info requires opening the battery, it's too risky.

At worst, what can happen? The BMS cuts the power and the Bafang shuts down?
 
I also fear it can't send 25 amps. If that info requires opening the battery, it's too risky.

At worst, what can happen? The BMS cuts the power and the Bafang shuts down?
He may be able to manage things using the PAS levels to keep the current draw in check.
 
Most good batteries should handle at least 2C, some 3C. "C-rate" means the Ah x the "xC" number equals how many amps it can handle, commonly used in RC battery stuff. So for yours, if it's a 2C battery, it'd be 11.5Ah x 2C = 23A. A 3C would be 34.5A. A 1C battery would only be 11.5A. 1.5C would be 17.75A, etc.

Based on the labelling, there's no way to know on yours without testing it to see what happens.

If there are any fuses (may be internal), their rating may give you an idea of limits.

Normally if current is exceeded, then assuming the BMS monitors the current (they don't all) it should shut off the output, cutting all power. (resetting this may require connecting to the charger in some cases).

If it does not monitor current, and it's limitation is the FETs in the BMS (or some other part in the current path), then that part may fail when current is exceeded--might not be instantaneous, but cumulative damage.

If the limitation is just the cells, then voltage sag beyond the limit will probably become severe enough for the BMS to detect LVC and shutdown the output, or for the controller itself to be unable to continue demanding that much current and itself shutdown.
 
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