Hardware temperature control tsdz2

[Elinx]

......
Won't engine oil leach the plasticisers out of the blue gear, making it brittle and brake?

Who knows. nexusG does this experiment and wil find if that is the case, after a while.
I hope he will report his very interesting experiment than more detailed.

 

[NexusG]

......
Won't engine oil leach the plasticisers out of the blue gear, making it brittle and brake?

Who knows. nexusG does this experiment and wil find if that is the case, after a while.
I hope he will report his very interesting experiment than more detailed.

I have a brass gear so it's not an issue for me
However, my TSDZ2 has been tested in very hilly terrain during a hot day this summer and I can say that the oil temp increases very fast, too fast..
This motor no longer match my mtb practise. I bought a new mountain bike and the bottom bracket housing is pressfit 92, not compatible with tsdz2

I hope that the "lightest ebike kit" https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/lightest-ebike-kit-your-bike-with-superpowers#/updates/all will answer my requirements

 

[famichiki]

Thanks for these measuring experiments. The choice for padsizes could now be more fine-tuned on the different places.
Are you planning to do this experiment too between motormount and gear case?
Because you had said you to consider inserting an aluminium plate there.

Between the motor face and the gear case is 1.45mm, so the wiki recommendation of using 2mm pads for a 1.5mm gap is very good.

The case side gap is 1.5mm but the rise on the motor is 0.05mm. Also, the casting burrs could benefit from being smoothed out. I have purchased a 2mm thermal pad, so will use that for now and replace with aluminium sheet if overheating still occurs.

I also disassembled my motor today and added thermal paste to each end cap. It took 3g to properly fill all the gaps, I needed to add a lot more than I initially thought. I haven't fitted it back into the gear case yet, but I estimate that will need about 2g for that. I used Arctic MX-4 which comes in 4g syringes, so unfortunately I'll need to purchase another. The wiki suggests that only 2-3g is required, but I think it's more like 3-4g if you are careful.

 

[Elinx]

.... the casting burrs could benefit from being smoothed out. I have purchased a 2mm thermal pad, so will use that for now and replace with aluminium sheet if overheating still occurs......

Thanks again.
I am not sure with such a small gap if it made a lot of difference if you use 1.2 mm copper or 1.0mm aluminium with on both sides some soft thermoconductive material.

 

[Elinx]

On the main TSD2 topic has Retrorockit and AZUR placed some messages about their heat dissipation improvements.

Retrorockit has made a very detailed discription what he has done, but unfortunately without pictures.
Retrorockit added aluminium tubing around the stator and heatpads between motor as described in the wiki.

"This has thermal pads all the way around the armature. The heatsink is full circle also, and the heat goes not only to the cover but down into the base of the motor housing."

"I got my 3mm thermal pads and installed the heatsink ring today. 100x100x3mm gives enough pad to do the job twice in case of a mistake, or blue gear repair later. I removed the motor to install thermal pads on the armature between the motor screws, and put thermal grease all the way around the base of the motor for heat transfer in that direction. Reinstalled the motor. The only special tool needed was pair of large external snap ring pliers to spread the ring to go over the thermal pads."

You can find his complete description here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=7700#p1579661

_____________________________________________________________________

AZUR has padded the stator with heatpads and placed aluminium heatsinks outside the motorhousing for a better airflow.
AZUR has a described his addition in short by severaled messages starting here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1582980#p1582980

"I acted in 3 areas:

1 - Installation of Thermal Pad according to what is described in this forum.
2 - Installation of heatsinks in the motor housing
3 - Lubricate the engine with a grease suitable for nylon Blue Gear.
I lubricated with a grease that is used to lubricate the nylon gears in the wind turbines. I used the Molykote PG-65 grease."

_____________________________________________________________________

Offcourse it is also possible to combine all these solutions for maybe the best improvement
Heatpads between housing and motor, aluminium ring between stator and cover, aluminium heatsinks on cover and housing.
As Retrorockit suggested here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=7825#p1585133


.

 

[Elinx]

Again another approch for cooling down the Tsdz2.
This time from jeff.page.rides.
He had made a complete liquid cooling system around the Tsdz2.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=7850#p1586320

" I finally have a fluid made to fill-up brushless Motors and it is working the way I wanted to from the start with no leaks. I can ride at 700 - 850 Watts all day long and the motor never gets more than 10-20 degrees warmer than the outside air. With all the same steps, but with only fluid in the left side of the case, and no external addons will keep the motor at 30 to 50 degrees warmer than the outside air at 700-850 watts. So that means you can ride at high watts at 100 degrees outside and note worry about overheating."

 

[jeff.page.rides]

TSDZ2 Fluid Cooling

I’ve been working with this all summer. With several different leaks, different pumps, different tubing, different fluid routing, different fluids, and other difficulties. I finally have a fluid made to fill-up brushless Motors and it is working the way I wanted to from the start with no leaks. I can ride at 700 - 850 Watts all day long and the motor never gets more than 10-20 degrees warmer than the outside air. With all the same steps, but with only fluid in the left side of the case, and no external addons will keep the motor at 30 to 50 degrees warmer than the outside air at 700-850 watts. So that means you can ride at high watts at 100 degrees outside and note worry about overheating. I use a led temp display attached to the bottom of the 860C. It has 2 probes and both temps show, one I leave out in the air on the front of the bike the other one is in the oil in the motor. This also allows you to use a throttle and still have a temperature sensor. It’s cooler, quieter and it’s smoother, but unfortunately like everything I had to learn it all the hard way.

When the riding season is over in about 60 days I will be doing a step by step how-to, with directions and pictures so those that want to tackle this should be able to do it without all the mistakes I had to go through. I’ve attached a couple of photos, so you can see what I’ve done. I also added a new 42 tooth chainring from https://www.eco-ebike.com/collections/d ... lid-e-bike That works great and costs less than the other brand.

I’m trying to decide if I want to go through the effort to offer a kit with all the parts and fluid needed for both types, internal only and external cooling. There was a lot of trial and error finding the right fittings, the right type of hose, the right fluid the right pump, and everything else. To get all the right parts I had to go through several different suppliers, no one-stop-shop here. It’s a lot of work, but If I decide to do this they will be offered through,
www.electrifybike.com and possibly www.eco-ebike.com

Here are some Photos of my 860C showing air temp, fluid temp in the case, human power, motor power, and pwm duty-cycle.

 

[charakaSamawry]

TSDZ2 Fluid Cooling

Timing. Literally been researching pc liquid cooling style methods of cooling. I was thinking of 3d printing a water jacket with thermally conductive filament.

How are you running the coolant around inside? My brain hurts just trying to work out which way up the bike is in tht photo lol

 

[jeff.page.rides]

TSDZ2 Fluid Cooling

Timing. Literally been researching pc liquid cooling style methods of cooling. I was thinking of 3d printing a water jacket with a thermally conductive filament.

How are you running the coolant around inside? My brain hurts just trying to work out which way up the bike is in the photo lol

The motor runs in the fluid. The fluid goes in at the bottom of the motor case, then exits the back of the motor case, then into the radiator, out the radiator, into the pump, and up to the bottom of the motor case. The reservoir is mounted above on the frame, so it bleeds out the air and keeps it full of fluid.

 

[charakaSamawry]

TSDZ2 Fluid Cooling

Timing.

The motor runs in the fluid.

Awesome, i was wondering whether that would be possible instead of making a complicated little water cooler; i will bug you in 60 days for that write up!
Only joking lol, but it will be cool to see how you did it. And that'll be in time for next summer so perfect

 

[Charlie Whiskey]

Maybe nice for some people.
Was searching in old posts, I saw also an idea for improving heatconductivity mentioned by hefest
A lot of layers of aluminium foil until it fits snug.
The original source I found on German Pedelecforum. Guiri claims a better heat dissipation.

Theoretically, the surface of the foil doesn't look smooth enough to eliminate any possible small air gaps.

Apology for going back a little bit to an older post, but according to this table http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Tables/thrcn.html the thermal conductivity of AL is about 205 W/mK while most thermal pads I've come across are advertised at about 6 W/mK. Assuming the actual conductivity you get is proportional to the contact area (feel free to correct me on this), then even with a fair bit air gap AL foil should still do at least as good if not better job than the thermal pads.

Anything is better than just air, and the motor isn't really totally unusable as stock, so after going through all of the solutions so far this one seems to be making the most sense to me. I'm going to give this a try for myself and see how it goes.

 

[Elinx]

......Anything is better than just air, and the motor isn't really totally unusable as stock, ............

I have said about the same before. You are right with this conclusion. Anything that has a higher heatconductivity than air could work. If you read back, Silentguy has used copper mesh and thin copper plate as an alternative.

 

[Elinx]

A completely different approach to control the tsdz2 heat comes from Vbruun.
Vbruun thinks replacing the bare motor with one with better temperature specifications can help.
Whether this is really possible depends on several factors, but it is certainly interesting.
Vbruun has introduced this idea here:

.......I was toying with the idea of replacing the motor in the tsdz2 drive unit with another higher quality motor.....

It is about this motor, which, like the tsdz2 version, works with hall sensors. So maybe it is possible to combine with the Tsdz2 controller and OSF. It is a bit expensive experiment if you are not sure about the practical consequenses, but...
Who knows, the idea will be taken further.


Update:
mctubster:
"I would argue various mechanical components are not good enough (bearings, shafts) to bother with upgrading the motor which seems to not really fail other than cooling issues which would require a similar fix no matter the motor"
Vbruun:
"guess youre right. I was thinking that maybe a higher grade motor can endure the temps that the original motor gets to without too many fuzzy mods.

But probably not worth the effort "

 

[sysrq]

TSDZ2 Fluid Cooling

I’ve been working with this all summer. With several different leaks, different pumps, different tubing, different fluid routing, different fluids, and other difficulties. I finally have a fluid made to fill-up brushless Motors and it is working the way I wanted to from the start with no leaks. I can ride at 700 - 850 Watts all day long and the motor never gets more than 10-20 degrees warmer than the outside air. With all the same steps, but with only fluid in the left side of the case, and no external addons will keep the motor at 30 to 50 degrees warmer than the outside air at 700-850 watts. So that means you can ride at high watts at 100 degrees outside and note worry about overheating. I use a led temp display attached to the bottom of the 860C. It has 2 probes and both temps show, one I leave out in the air on the front of the bike the other one is in the oil in the motor. This also allows you to use a throttle and still have a temperature sensor. It’s cooler, quieter and it’s smoother, but unfortunately like everything I had to learn it all the hard way.

When the riding season is over in about 60 days I will be doing a step by step how-to, with directions and pictures so those that want to tackle this should be able to do it without all the mistakes I had to go through. I’ve attached a couple of photos, so you can see what I’ve done. I also added a new 42 tooth chainring from https://www.eco-ebike.com/collections/d ... lid-e-bike That works great and costs less than the other brand.

I’m trying to decide if I want to go through the effort to offer a kit with all the parts and fluid needed for both types, internal only and external cooling. There was a lot of trial and error finding the right fittings, the right type of hose, the right fluid the right pump, and everything else. To get all the right parts I had to go through several different suppliers, no one-stop-shop here. It’s a lot of work, but If I decide to do this they will be offered through,
www.electrifybike.com and possibly www.eco-ebike.com

Here are some Photos of my 860C showing air temp, fluid temp in the case, human power, motor power, and pwm duty-cycle.

Why does it need such a large tubing? How many people tried to place the heat sensor inside the motor windings (like in most motors)? I think external ones aren't responsive enough.

''Since thermostats are located on the outer surface of the coil ends, they sense the temperature at that location. In connection with three-phase motors, thermostats are considered unstable protection against stall or other rapidly changing temperature conditions.
In single phase motors thermostats do protect against locked-rotor conditions.''
https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/basics-of-built-in-motor-protection-for-beginners

Couldn't find anything about BLDC motors regarding to this matter.

 

[jeff.page.rides]

TSDZ2 Fluid Cooling

I’ve been working with this all summer. With several different leaks, different pumps, different tubing, different fluid routing, different fluids, and other difficulties. I finally have a fluid made to fill-up brushless Motors and it is working the way I wanted to from the start with no leaks. I can ride at 700 - 850 Watts all day long and the motor never gets more than 10-20 degrees warmer than the outside air. With all the same steps, but with only fluid in the left side of the case, and no external addons will keep the motor at 30 to 50 degrees warmer than the outside air at 700-850 watts. So that means you can ride at high watts at 100 degrees outside and note worry about overheating. I use a led temp display attached to the bottom of the 860C. It has 2 probes and both temps show, one I leave out in the air on the front of the bike the other one is in the oil in the motor. This also allows you to use a throttle and still have a temperature sensor. It’s cooler, quieter and it’s smoother, but unfortunately like everything I had to learn it all the hard way.

When the riding season is over in about 60 days I will be doing a step by step how-to, with directions and pictures so those that want to tackle this should be able to do it without all the mistakes I had to go through. I’ve attached a couple of photos, so you can see what I’ve done. I also added a new 42 tooth chainring from https://www.eco-ebike.com/collections/d ... lid-e-bike That works great and costs less than the other brand.

I’m trying to decide if I want to go through the effort to offer a kit with all the parts and fluid needed for both types, internal only and external cooling. There was a lot of trial and error finding the right fittings, the right type of hose, the right fluid the right pump, and everything else. To get all the right parts I had to go through several different suppliers, no one-stop-shop here. It’s a lot of work, but If I decide to do this they will be offered through,
www.electrifybike.com and possibly www.eco-ebike.com

Here are some Photos of my 860C showing air temp, fluid temp in the case, human power, motor power, and pwm duty-cycle.

Why does it need such a large tubing? How many people tried to place the heat sensor inside the motor windings (like in most motors)? I think external ones aren't responsive enough.

''Since thermostats are located on the outer surface of the coil ends, they sense the temperature at that location. In connection with three-phase motors, thermostats are considered unstable protection against stall or other rapidly changing temperature conditions.
In single phase motors thermostats do protect against locked-rotor conditions.''
https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/basics-of-built-in-motor-protection-for-beginners

Couldn't find anything about BLDC motors regarding to this matter.

You don't need the large tubing, that was just the first fittings and tubing that I found when I started the Project.
The point of the liquid cooling is the fact that the motor doesn't get hot and doesn't need to shut down. I have a temperature sensor where the liquid exits the motor just to see how warm it's getting. It's never been warmer than 25 degrees above the outside air temperature and that's running at 400-800 watts. When you touch the motor case it's never hot just a little warmer than the outside air temp. The motor running in this liquid is supposed to last 10 times longer than the motor running in air.

 

[Vbruun]

Hi Guys

Just found this thread. Pretty stoked that someone thought my idea was good! I am not planning on building anything in the near future, but maybe When I want to build my next bike?

Anyways, if someone feels inspired to try and change the motor, please do so! I am very interested to see if it will improve anything

 

[Elinx]

.... Pretty stoked that someone thought my idea was good .....

I try to summarize in this topic all hardware mods for controlling the heat of the TSDZ2, found in the different Tsdz2 topics.
andrea_104kg started this topic for that reason with his own experiments, but I saw that a lot of people didn't found this topic for their mods.

The idea of replacing the motor for a better one, came also about the same time in the main tsdz2 topic by LeftCoastNurd, as yours in OSF-860C topic.
So I thought it would be handy to mention this here too, if someone else has also the idea to replace the stock motor.

 

[Retrorockit]

Maybe nice for some people.
Was searching in old posts, I saw also an idea for improving heatconductivity mentioned by hefest
A lot of layers of aluminium foil until it fits snug.
The original source I found on German Pedelecforum. Guiri claims a better heat dissipation.

Theoretically, the surface of the foil doesn't look smooth enough to eliminate any possible small air gaps.

Apology for going back a little bit to an older post, but according to this table http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Tables/thrcn.html the thermal conductivity of AL is about 205 W/mK while most thermal pads I've come across are advertised at about 6 W/mK. Assuming the actual conductivity you get is proportional to the contact area (feel free to correct me on this), then even with a fair bit air gap AL foil should still do at least as good if not better job than the thermal pads.

Anything is better than just air, and the motor isn't really totally unusable as stock, so after going through all of the solutions so far this one seems to be making the most sense to me. I'm going to give this a try for myself and see how it goes.

The thermal conductivity of Aluminum is the reason I used 3"x1/8" Aluminum tubing for my heatsink. It still needed some thermal pads but much thinner section. Cut a space in the tubing about 1/4" wide, and grind the ends to clear the capacitor.
Put 3mm thermal pads between the motor bolts.Make the tubing long enough to go from the base of the motor to just under the end cap. This cut can be done by the tubing supplier at nominal cost. Removing the motor helps put thermal grease all the way around the base of the motor.Put thermal grease inside the cover where it will meet the ring. The gap in the ring allows it to flex and conform to the taper inside the cover.No fasteners required. It's a snug press fit.

As far as questions of Ebike reliability go. My BBSHD with Surly stainless steel 50t chainring,and Wippermann 8 speed e bike chain gives very little trouble. The Avid BB7 185mm cable disc brakes with sintered Copper brake pads are very reliable and up to the job. DH rated 26" MTB wheels with Shimano XT hubs (Sun Singletrack/or Rhynolites) and Schwalbe Big Ben tires work well, but I do have to be prepared to fix the occasional flat tire. I wipe and wax the chain often, and check it for stretch. The Sunrace 11-40 8 speed casette can be found for around $20 so is expendable. At 1500W I do rivet my chain instead of quick links. I measure my chain stretch and replace it earlier than normal(.5mm) due to the high load it runs under, just the cost of doing business at 2HP. I have no idea what the inside of the BBSHD looks like. It seems to get from place to place just fine without a torque sensor. Usually at level 1/5 assist.level 2 is for strong headwinds and hills. level 3 is for runnning at 30mph in traffic. The throttle is used for stop light takeoffs to keep up with other traffic. It's not too hard to have a reliable ebike if you use the tougher offroad parts catalog.My prefered gear setup for urban riding is an old Shimnao XTR mid cage Rapid Rise derailer, with Shimano rapid rise grip shifter.You can preselect downshifts w/o pedaling. Even at a stop. This makes it easier to recover form panic stop incidents.

 

[Elinx]

Swannking has added heatsinks in his tdsz2 for better airflow cooling.
He glued a lot of small 10mm heatsinks on the case with Artic Silver adhesive.
You find the modification details inside the main Tsdz2 topic.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=7975#p1593269

"Finished up the heat sink modification.
Supplies used:
10x10x10mm heat sink x 39 pieces
22x22x10mm heat sink x 4
5 gr arctic silver
Total cost: about $40USD"

 

[scianiac]

Building on najbyk's work I made some aluminum heatsink shims that replace the thermal pads between the motor endplate and gearbox housing. I actually made a crude test version a few months back and it performed well, I was never able to get the temperature above 42C (48V motor 52V battery, max current limits). Since installing the final version I've only had one warm test day which while I wasn't watching the temps super close it seemed to peak out in the low 30s after some steep climbs. I made a few of these and threw them up for free here, so if anyone wants one just cover the shipping and it's yours. If people are interested I might make some more. Edit 1/7/21 - due to popular demand I've made some more of these, available at the link above

 

[Elinx]

.... I made some aluminum heatsink shims that replace the thermal pads between the motor endplate and gearbox housing...............

Thanks for your contribution to improve the heatresistance of the TSDZ2.
I am not sure which tickness for the shim you have used, but from the measurements famichiki has done the gap is 1.45mm.
So imho your shim thickness is about 1.4mm in combination with thermal paste on both sides?

 

[scianiac]

.... I made some aluminum heatsink shims that replace the thermal pads between the motor endplate and gearbox housing...............

Thanks for your contribution to improve the heatresistance of the TSDZ2.
I am not sure which tickness for the shim you have used, but from the measurements famichiki has done the gap is 1.45mm.
So imho your shim thickness is about 1.4mm in combination with thermal paste on both sides?

That's about the measurements I got as well. The plate is slightly thicker though so it can get some clamping force between the motor and body, clamping force is the key to making any thermal compound work. Still we're only talking about tenths of a mm.

 

[neptronix]

Those of you busy hacking the TSDZ2 may be interested in this new thread about cooling geared motors ( applies to mid drives too ) using dielectric fluids:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=109746

Would like to hear your feedback there if you have any.

 

[Blacklite]

With summer here in Australia and high ambient temperatures I decided to do some of the heat dissipation mods in this thread. Ambient varying between 30-35 deg C. Motor would head reasonably quickly above 70 deg C stock.

I bought 1 x 80x40x2mm piece and 1 x 80x40x3mm piece of Gelid GP-Extreme thermal pads, and a 10g tube of GP-Extreme thermal paste. From https://gelidstore.com/
Also needed a length of 25mm x 1mm aluminium flat bar which was only a couple of dollars, and a reasonably chunky stainless steel hose clamp that would tighten to 65mm and that was probably 15mm wide, also a couple of dollars.

I followed the wiki guide for thermal compound inside the motor ends, and used about half the 2mm pad to fill the under motor gap. I used half the 3mm pad cut into 5 pieces to fill the gaps between the motor screws apart from the one closest to the controller. Roughly cut the flat bar to get two lengths that would wrap around the motor, and bent them around a tube of similar size. Installed them over the motor, with some thermal paste between the two layers. Slipped the pipe clamp over the top, also with some thermal compound between it and the aluminium. The screw mechanism of the clamp sits nicely between the motor and controller. Aligned it all so it sat low on the motor, and that gap between the almost full circle of the aluminium strips was over the single non-padded area of the stator and then tightened up the clamp. Stretched the rest of the 2mm thermal pad around the non controller side of the motor to fill in the gap to the outer case after checking the clearance. Used the rest of the 3mm pads as per the wiki on the top of the motor. The GP-extreme thermal paste is very thick, so had to use some cheap slippery thermal compound I had on hand to help slide the cover on. Tight fit but got it on.

Even with ambient temperatures in the low 30’s (C), after the mods haven’t been able to get the temp reading beyond 42 degrees. Super happy with the mods. All up around AUD$60. No special tools required. The aluminium flat bar will break if a sharp bend is bent back and forth.

Thanks to all in this thread for the great ideas!

 

[Elinx]

With summer here in Australia and high ambient temperatures I decided to do some of the heat dissipation mods in this thread. Ambient varying between 30-35 deg C. Motor would head reasonably quickly above 70 deg C stock. .........

Even with ambient temperatures in the low 30’s (C), after the mods haven’t been able to get the temp reading beyond 42 degrees...

You have added thermopads between motor flanges and case as in the wiki AND thermopads between stator and case-cover.
With these mods you got excellent cooling results from 70 to 42 degrees. :thumb:
Thanks for publishing them.