Help: Phaserunner Phase Current Troubleshooting

[ebentrider]

Hi All,

I am an e-bike enthusiast with some limited troubleshooting experience, in need of advice from the community here. I have a phaserunner, 52V battery, and ezee 350 rpm front hub motor. I have both a throttle and Sempu torque sensor connected on the bike. I mostly have used the torque PAS mode on the CA3 to control the motor.

When I go through the Phaserunner autotune process, during the motor spin test, I get the error:

No current detected on Yellow phase. Please check the motor connection and try again.

I have checked the integrity of the phase wiring in the motor by shorting each combo of 2 phase wires and turning the motor - it spins freely without shorting, but I feel resistance turning the motor when any 2 phase wires are connected, so I assume this means the phase wires within the motor are not shorted together and the phase wires are intact. I did the same thing at the end of the wire connecting the motor to the controller so I assume there is no issue with the wire from the controller to the motor or the connectors on either the motor or wire. Does this error mean there is something wrong with the controller? I tried spreading the male ends of the phase connectors on the phaserunner to get a better connection, but that didn't help. I am looking for advice as to how to further troubleshoot, or any ideas about what is causing this error and how to resolve it. I am thinking of ordering one of the Chinese ebike testers to test the phase wire outputs from the phaserunner - I sort of doubt that there was an issue with the phaserunner from day 1 and there is no sign of any damage to it, but not sure how else to troubleshoot the issue.

I have been able to use the motor in sensorless mode (recently replaced and verified the hall sensors are working, still need to replace the JST connector for the halls between controller and motor that got damaged in the process to connect the new motor halls to the controller), but I don't think I am getting the best performance. In particular, when the motor starts after having stopped (e.g. when coasting and pedals not moving so PAS cuts out, then start pedaling again and the motor starts again), the controller throws a lot of power into the motor for a few seconds and causes the bike to accelerate, even with minimal pedal force. This only happens when the motor starts up again, not if I am pedaling at a constant rate. I am guessing this is part of the sensorless start-up operation...I'm not sure I have really used the halls sensor start-up or not with this set-up because I think I have always gotten this error during the autotune process and I have limited experience with this. When I look at the amps going into the motor on the CA3, it is way more than the sensorless start-up injection current, so I'm not sure what is going on each time the motor starts up after a stop or how to make that more gentle. I am playing with the sensorless start up settings but so far haven't found parameters that fix that issue.

I verified that the #pole pairs and kV are correct for the motor I have within the phaserunner configuration. I think I have been getting the yellow phase error since I got the phaserunner a year or 2 ago and have been using it this way, but now digging in to it and wanting to resolve whatever the problem is. Any advice or suggestions are appreciated!

 

[ebentrider]

Update: I got the motor all back together and halls hooked up. Although I can see that the halls are working on the dashboard of the phaserunner config software, the motor doesn't respond to the throttle in sensored mode. It does work in sensorless mode.

What is going on? could one of my phase wires be grounded inside the motor? I am at a loss for what to do except run in sensorless mode and see if I can adjust the settings.

 

[district9prawn]

It sounds like your motor is fine if it works in sensorless. The ASI controllers are quite sensitive to phase shorts to ground or positive supply, even if its not a dead short.

I'm not sure I have really used the halls sensor start-up or not with this set-up because I think I have always gotten this error during the autotune process and I have limited experience with this.

Yes its possible you actually never used the halls. There is a setting that allows the controller to automagically run in sensorless if the halls are bad or improperly configured. Does Grin's phase runner software allow you to view the hall table mapped by the controller? Would be helpful to see if the controller has a valid hall table. I know the ASI bacdoor software shows it.

I don't think I am getting the best performance. In particular, when the motor starts after having stopped (e.g. when coasting and pedals not moving so PAS cuts out, then start pedaling again and the motor starts again), the controller throws a lot of power into the motor for a few seconds and causes the bike to accelerate, even with minimal pedal force. This only happens when the motor starts up again, not if I am pedaling at a constant rate. I am guessing this is part of the sensorless start-up operation.

As you've discovered, the sensorless start routine isn't responsive to throttle. The default sensorless start settings seem designed more for direct drive hub motors which need a bit more oomph to get going. On an ezee you can probably decrease the sensorless start current and duration without impacting startup reliability.

 

[E-HP]

Update: I got the motor all back together and halls hooked up. Although I can see that the halls are working on the dashboard of the phaserunner config software, the motor doesn't respond to the throttle in sensored mode. It does work in sensorless mode.

What is going on? could one of my phase wires be grounded inside the motor? I am at a loss for what to do except run in sensorless mode and see if I can adjust the settings.

I wonder if swapping the blue and green phase wires would help?

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=103373&p=1512036#p1512036

 

[district9prawn]

These controllers are smart so all phase combinations are equally valid. Swapping a pair of wires will make the motor run backwards.

 

[ebentrider]

Thanks for your reply!

It sounds like your motor is fine if it works in sensorless. The ASI controllers are quite sensitive to phase shorts to ground or positive supply, even if its not a dead short.

Based on what I know (admittedly I don't have a lot of info to go on), it seems like a phase short to ground or supply may be what is going on, like you suggest. Just so I am clear, that would be within the motor, or the phase wires going into the motor right, not within the phaserunner? If the problem is a short in the motor/ motor cable, how would one verify that is true and is there a way to resolve it? I think this has been going on ever since I first got the motor and set it up. I never addressed it because I was able to run sensorless, but now I am realizing I am not getting the most out of my set-up. Is there a way to troubleshoot and fix such a problem or would I be looking at buying a new motor?

Related question: when running in sensorless mode, the motor gives a bit of a jiggity-jiggity sound like it is switching on-off-on-off a few times with each rotation. Is it possible that one of the phase wires has a problem but the motor can run sensorless using only 2 phase connections? I don't have enough experience to know of the sound I hear is typical, but just wondering if maybe one sector is not firing because of whatever is going on with the yellow phase wire.

I have the BAC door software as well, I will see if I can figure out whether there is a valid halls table. I am guessing not, but the issue seems to be whatever is going on with the yellow phase connection.

 

[E-HP]

Just to be clear; you've run the autotune setup, but afterwards the motor won't run in sensored mode, correct?

 

[ebentrider]

yes, I can get through the autotune static test fine. I verified the # motor poles, kV, etc are all correct for the motor I have, based on the info from the Grin website (where I got everything). When I run the autotune spinning test, the motor does spin, but when it stops spinning I get the no current detected on yellow phase error. It doesn't matter if I have hall sensor start or sensorless start selected in the phaserunner software, I get the same behavior during the autotune spin test. It seems like it is using a sensorless start during the autotune spin test because it starts very slowly, does maybe 1 rotation or less, then rapidly kicks up to full RPM and spins for ~30 to 60 seconds.

If I save the parameters to use sensored start without the 'fault tolerant' box checked then when I engage the throttle, the motor stutters once, then doesn't spin, even though I can see from the dashboard and on the CA3 that amps are flowing into the motor. After that first attempt I get no response whatsoever from the motor when I engage the throttle, until I power cycle everything. If I set the phaserunner parameters to sensorless run, or 'fault tolerant hall / fallback to sensorless' box is checked, then it seems to use the sensorless startup routine. I have it set to inject 1A for about 1 second, which is easy to see that it is doing that. After the 1A for 1s there is a large pulse of power to the motor (I don't know how to scale that part back, seems to override the max amps and max power setting on the CA3 for a second or 2) before everything settles into normal sensorless operation.

 

[district9prawn]

If you try all different phase combinations and the phase runner always gives the same "No current on yellow phase" error then problem should be the controller. If the phase runner detects a shorted phase then it disables the mosfets and refuses to drive the motor. Not the case here. I think your phase runner might have a bad current sensor.

After the 1A for 1s there is a large pulse of power to the motor (I don't know how to scale that part back, seems to override the max amps and max power setting on the CA3 for a second or 2) before everything settles into normal sensorless operation.

At low speed the current limiting should be coming from the phase runner. Though I'm not sure your phase runner is actually doing that.

Post a video of the funny sound when running sensorless. These things are hard to describe in words.

 

[rockstar195]

Loose connection?

 

[goatman]

if you have a spare controller hook the motor to it and see if it works, if it works its the cable or phaserunner, if it doesn't its the motor.

I would open up the motor and have a good look at all the wiring and test the halls, make sure theres no foreign material or solder hiding in there. also in your phaserunner manual it shows the Y,B,G of the mt60 connector you can try and spread the male Y open a little

 

[goatman]

your motor spin test? its a geared hub right ? meaning its not a DD hub a geared hub freewheels. if you short the phase and spin the wheel that's not a test just like theres no regen on a geared hub. you can do regen on a geared hub but it wont stop the bike it just stops the motor from spinning but not the tire from spinning

 

[ebentrider]

Thanks for all the feedback.

your motor spin test? its a geared hub right ? meaning its not a DD hub a geared hub freewheels. if you short the phase and spin the wheel that's not a test just like theres no regen on a geared hub. you can do regen on a geared hub but it wont stop the bike it just stops the motor from spinning but not the tire from spinning

yes, the motor is a geared hub motort.When I short the phase wires and spin the wheel BACKWARDS I get the cogging. It seems pretty clear that there is resistance when the phase wires are shorted, but no resistance when not shorted. The freewheel only goes one way so spinning the wheel backwards the coils have to move past the magnets.

I wish I had a spare controller or spare motor to help troubleshoot but I don't have anything handy...

I did some more testing last night: I cut into the phase wires so that I could switch them around and see what happens. Now on the spin test it actually doesn't spin, just tries to spin, makes some clunks and occasionally gets a little rotation but never spins up. Then I get the 'no current detected on yellow phase'. when I swapped yellow for blue phase wires I get a 'failed motor spin test' screen. says the parameters aren't right for the motor, adjust and try again. when I swap yellow for green phase wires I get the same 'no current detected on yellow phase' error.

I will try some more testing when I can, but initially does this now seem like a problem with the phaserunner? If the problem was with the yellow phase in the cable or motor then swapping the wires the error should be no current on green phase, but it still says yellow phase, so the problem is in the controller?

I tried spreading the connectors between the phase wires for better contact but that didn't help.

 

[goatman]

wheres Amberwolf lol

you shouldn't have to swap any wires around, the phaserunner self learns. I would try and reset the phaserunner, load default parameters.

I have 2 phaserunners and both of them I just randomly connected and the phaserunner did the rest with the exception that I put phase amps at 90 and control the amps with the ca 2.3 and ca3.14. maybe you got a dud.

I read somewhere that grin was having issues with the phaserunner where some fault kept popping up and the cause of the fault was the xt60 from people constantly unplugging the battery to turn off the phaserunner. the fix was to spread the male xt60 pins wich is why I suggested spreading your Y mt60 pin.

I don't know what to say but anytime ive had an issue with the motor running rough or going sensorless with my grinfinions its been a wire issue in my motor. if you have another motor, try the phaserunner on the other motor.

 

[ebentrider]

Hey thanks for the advice.

I’m not sure what I did, but messing with the wiring, and I did reset the phaserunner to defaults at one point, but now running the spin test I can get it to complete successfully. Sometimes it doesn’t work on the first try and I got the same error, but then next try it worked! I will have a chance for a test ride tonight. The throttle seems to work properly with halls now. It may have been something with the cable as that is what I was messing with.

 

[goatman]

flip the bike bike upside down give it a little throttle so the tire is spinning and slowly wiggle the motor cable by the axle and see if it sounds differently or runs differently all of a sudden. ive had that problem where it was intermittent, it would run good, hit a bump and it would run rough, hit another bump it would run good. grin told me it sounded like halls but halls were fine, I replaced the motor cable and problem was solved

 

[ebentrider]

Thanks. Yeah, I’m worried about it coming back. I might just order a spare cable in case.